(Close Window) Topic: Scott Alexander "The Blades"
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Apr 10, 2010 11:25am)
Some hot news fresh off of the press at Bob Kohler Magic.

Two things...

First, we're in the final stages of releasing one of the best routines I've ever seen, Scott Alexander's "The Blades".

I'll be posting more information over the next few weeks as this product is released. I can guarantee that
as usual we're on the cutting edge (pun intended).

Second, you can find out more about "The Blades" and the latest at Bob Kohler Magic on our new Blog.
Here's the link: https://bobkohlermagic.wordpress.com/

The Blog also contains an RSS Feed if you'd like to get the news instantly.
Message: Posted by: Andi Peters (Apr 10, 2010 11:55am)
The hype begins again!

Bob, any chance of a straight description of the effect in the meantime?
Message: Posted by: Joe Mauro (Apr 10, 2010 11:04pm)
Quote:

On 2009-01-15 13:36, Bob Kohler wrote:

Razor blades while wider in one dimension are extremely thin on the side so from certain angles they seem to disappear.




Has this objection been overcome with "The Blades" ?
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Apr 11, 2010 2:49am)
Yep...
Message: Posted by: Andi Peters (Apr 11, 2010 6:01am)
Quote:

On 2010-04-10 11:55, Andi Peters wrote:
The hype begins again!

Bob, any chance of a straight description of the effect in the meantime?


Cheers for the description of the effect on your blog Bob. Good to see you're listening to your fans and responding in kind.
Message: Posted by: dave (Apr 11, 2010 11:10am)
Andi, keep dreaming, it will never happen, but I am with you in hoping it does.
Message: Posted by: Steve Hook (Apr 11, 2010 7:46pm)
Andi and Dave:

The routine hasn't bee released yet. You've surely got itchy trigger fingers to be taking pot shots at this early date!
;-)

Maybe you could give things a chance to unfold a little more?
Message: Posted by: Joe Mauro (Apr 11, 2010 8:42pm)
I think if someone went to a website, read their blog and then posted here that they haven't given enough details, that would be jumping the gun.

But when a dealer comes to the Café to beat the drums about their upcoming product, then it's fair game to talk about it/make requests/cheer about it/criticize it, etc.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Apr 12, 2010 5:37pm)
If Scott Alexander created this, it's probably a great piece of magic! It seems everything Scott touches turns to gold....or in this case, is it rusty razor blades?
;)
Message: Posted by: shaunproof (Apr 14, 2010 4:41pm)
Let me be the first to say that this is priced too low. I would actually prefer that this item be priced higher to keep it out of the mere curious and keep it to myself.
Message: Posted by: Ken Dumm (Apr 14, 2010 4:50pm)
Quote:

On 2010-04-14 16:41, shaunproof wrote:
Let me be the first to say that this is priced too low. I would actually prefer that this item be priced higher to keep it out of the mere curious and keep it to myself.



Has a price been listed yet? I haven't seen it...just curious...

Ken
Message: Posted by: donrodrigo (Apr 15, 2010 5:24am)
Hi friends are we talking about Scott (Alexander) Grocki?
We lived in the same town close to him know him well sold magic to him.
My magical theatrical teacher told me he had sent scott to Boca R. Fl.
Well enough said. (Jenny?)
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Apr 15, 2010 2:38pm)
Scott Alexander is in fact Scott Grocki's stage name.

Sorry, I still have to hold back on releasing the details about "The Blades". The good news however is
once this clears legal I can reveal what's coming. Timeline: about one week.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Apr 15, 2010 3:10pm)
I like the way Bob Kohler does things! Dots the i's, crosses the t's to bring the community the best there is!

C
Message: Posted by: bryanlonden (Apr 16, 2010 10:40am)
45 second reset. I LOVE Steve Spill's needle routine, but for the ability to reset in 45 seconds, I may have to use the razorblades. I've always felt like the needles made more sense with the thread, but wow..45 second reset sounds GREAT to me.
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Apr 26, 2010 3:51pm)
When The Blades is released you'll discover that it's very different from Steve Spill's phenomenal routine "Confessions Of A Needle Swallower". Both are comedy presentations but they are quite different in style and presentation.

The Blades has been a major part of Scott Alexander's act for 15 years. He closes many shows with the routine, in fact it was his closer for a couple of years when he worked at Caesar's Magical Empire in the Pagoda Room. Seven shows per night with not much time to reset for the next group. The virtually instant reset made it possible.

He still uses it all of the time on both his cruise ship performances and corporate shows. It's really funny but at the same time dramatic.

More later...
Message: Posted by: simonlebon1 (May 5, 2010 12:54pm)
Zzzzz.......zzzzzzz lol
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 6, 2010 12:30pm)
You can nap a few more days...
Almost ready...
Message: Posted by: Review King (May 10, 2010 2:01pm)
Bob sent out an e-mail The Blades will be ready this week.

Chris
Message: Posted by: Stellan (May 10, 2010 2:26pm)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz8rxbHWVg0

The standard is set.
Message: Posted by: Steve Hook (May 10, 2010 5:10pm)
Quote:

On 2010-05-10 14:26, Stellan wrote:

The standard is set.



Dude, that doesn't look anything like Scott Alexander. Scott is younger, marginally better looking, and much, much easier to understand.

:hotcoffee: ;)

ps: We're waiting, Bob. I'm really looking forward to this one.
Message: Posted by: mumford (May 10, 2010 5:36pm)
Even with the lkanguage barrie that Otto Wessly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz8rxbHWVg0 routine is beyond belief.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (May 11, 2010 10:05am)
Wow! That's a simply incredible routine.
Love it!:)
Message: Posted by: Magicjg (May 14, 2010 1:48am)
Where can I get information on this trick?
Message: Posted by: ArtIn (May 14, 2010 11:04am)
Really.. I mean really really exciting routine.. ingenious.. purely ingenious..
:applause: :applause: :applause:
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (May 14, 2010 12:31pm)
I'm a little confused, though - is Otto Wessley's routine the very same as Scott Alexander's "The Blades"?
No doubt, in Otto's routine, there are more blades than I've ever seen before.
:)
Message: Posted by: takeachance (May 14, 2010 1:04pm)
Yes, I was wondering the same thing Potty. Is this routine the same as Otto's?
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 14, 2010 2:02pm)
I can assure you that Scott Alexander's "The Blades' is totally different than Otto's. I've known Otto for decades. His routine is fantastic. Scott's is totally different in every way, he went down a different path.

"The Blades" hopefully will be up on my web site by Monday...
Message: Posted by: takeachance (May 14, 2010 3:06pm)
Thanks Bob, and while we have you here, are you ever going to release your rising card effect?
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 16, 2010 3:15pm)
Good question about the Rising Cards. Still one of my favorite routines.

The answer is I licensed it to Steve Cohen two years ago to perform in his show "Chamber Magic" in NY. For now it's only being done by Steve and me.

I currently have no plans to expand the license.
Message: Posted by: s0fin (May 17, 2010 9:55am)
There are some shots of scott doing the blades in this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtjeHPiBTXw
Message: Posted by: Review King (May 17, 2010 10:39am)
Quote:

On 2010-05-17 09:55, s0fin wrote:
There are some shots of scott doing the blades in this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtjeHPiBTXw



That was wondeful. Thanks for finding it and posting it.

Chris
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (May 17, 2010 12:18pm)
It is now on the site.

s
Message: Posted by: DougNicols (May 17, 2010 12:26pm)
https://www.bobkohlermagic.com/view-product.cfm?productid=65
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (May 17, 2010 2:28pm)
My order is in! Scott Alexander is a genius in the World of Magic, and I have NO doubt that "The Blades" will be another fantastic presentation.
I can only say a very heartfelt "thank you" to Scott for allowing other magis to perform this signature effect. And I'm delighted that Bob Kohler has gone to great lengths to ensure that (hopefully) it won't be ripped off.
Scott, you ARE my favourite magician - such comedy, talent, and wisdom. And you don't mind sharing your gifts. I wish the magic community would learn from your example!
Great stuff!
Doug :)
Message: Posted by: magicinsight (May 17, 2010 3:42pm)
Mr. Kohler's ad on his site as well as on the instructional dvd that this effect has the potential of causing very serous injury and life theatening injuries the instructions are not carefully followed. WHile I understand taht a proper legal disclaimer must be made on all magic routiens that uses potentially dangerous apparatus such s knives, fire and razor blades but I would like to know, without any revealing any methodology, if this routine is 100% safe if one follows teh guidelines and if there are any internal safety mechanisms to prevent injury. In the heat of a performance, a perfromer can be distracted. I would just like to know how safe this routine truly is to perform.

Thank you.

Michael
Message: Posted by: magicinsight (May 17, 2010 5:30pm)
Mr. Kohler was kind enough to provide me with some additional information. While I do not want to reveal anything that would be inappropriate, the routine is certainly safe to perform by following the instructions. I will be ordering this terrific routine.

Michael
Message: Posted by: Magicjg (May 17, 2010 10:29pm)
Is this really almost 800 dollars?
Message: Posted by: Steve Hook (May 17, 2010 11:41pm)
Quote:

On 2010-05-17 22:29, Magicjg wrote:
Is this really almost 800 dollars?



The license to perform the routine is I think $795, so, yes. The way the ad reads, the routine is priced that way to 1) of course provide a profit to Scott the creator and Bob the supplier, 2) cover the manufacturing, filming, and legal expenses, and 3) keep it exclusive to a relatively small list of professional magicians.

To a newbie, $795 would be a heckuva lot of money. To a pro who makes $50,000 to $100,000 a year, that's chump change, especially if it helps him or her get several more corporate meeting gigs or six month's worth of cruise ship dates.

I don't think price is supposed to be a big issue regarding the professional package, JG. Agreed?
Message: Posted by: Review King (May 17, 2010 11:44pm)
Quote:

On 2010-05-17 22:29, Magicjg wrote:
Is this really almost 800 dollars?



That's what TT's should sell for ( our art has been sold out ). Thank goodness for producers like Bob Kohler!

Chris
Message: Posted by: Exitmat (May 18, 2010 12:33am)
Quote:

On 2010-05-17 23:41, Steve Hook wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-05-17 22:29, Magicjg wrote:
Is this really almost 800 dollars?



The license to perform the routine is I think $795, so, yes. The way the ad reads, the routine is priced that way to 1) of course provide a profit to Scott the creator and Bob the supplier, 2) cover the manufacturing, filming, and legal expenses, and 3) keep it exclusive to a relatively small list of professional magicians.

To a newbie, $795 would be a heckuva lot of money. To a pro who makes $50,000 to $100,000 a year, that's chump change, especially if it helps him or her get several more corporate meeting gigs or six month's worth of cruise ship dates.

I don't think price is supposed to be a big issue regarding the professional package, JG. Agreed?



I think saying $795 is "chump change" to someone making $50,000/year is quite the exaggeration.
Message: Posted by: Stucky (May 18, 2010 4:43am)
Just buy one of the DVD's out there (Medina, Bizarro, etc) on the razor blade effect and save some money. Devise your OWN routine instead of being an uncreative hack and buying someone else's regardless of how good it may or may not be.
Message: Posted by: ArtIn (May 18, 2010 9:40am)
"The digital age has made magic a mess. It's extremely difficult to keep a secret. Times have really changed since I first got into magic. We used to fight hard to keep the best magic a secret. Everything now ends up either on YouTube, Bit Torrent or copied and passed from friend to friend. Invisible Thread has been ruined by pitchmen. It's easy for anybody to find out how" it's done".
The internet has put many of magic's greatest secrets at risk."

source: https://www.bobkohlermagic.com/view-product.cfm?productid=65
___________________________________

Unfortunatly it's so true Bob..
if the blades are that good -> sell it for 1.000$ and more
Message: Posted by: Keith Jozsef (May 18, 2010 10:52am)
Quote:

On 2010-05-17 23:41, Steve Hook wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-05-17 22:29, Magicjg wrote:
Is this really almost 800 dollars?



To a newbie, $795 would be a heckuva lot of money. To a pro who makes $50,000 to $100,000 a year, that's chump change, especially if it helps him or her get several more corporate meeting gigs or six month's worth of cruise ship dates.

I don't think price is supposed to be a big issue regarding the professional package, JG. Agreed?



I agree that the price is more than resonable for a routine of this calibur, BUT...

I don't see how it's going to get you more corporate gigs or cruise ship dates--if you can't put any footage of the routine in your promo video! (That would violate the license agreement) Also...hope your corporate gig or trade show isn't in Las Vegas...or your outta luck again! (Another violation) Gonna be on local T.V. to promote your next show? (not Masters of Illusion, mind you, just a local affiliate station)...Strike 3 (no T.V. rights included.)

I'm sorry, but if you're going to release something--RELEASE IT--and charge accordingly for the rights that are being included. I'd rather pay $1500 and know that I can do the routine anytime, anywhere. Perhaps they could offer extended rights for an additional fee?

I was really set on purchasing this routine because of all the first-hand praise I heard...I'm just afraid of being in ACCIDENTAL violation of the agreement....In an age of cell-phone size, HD video cameras, what if someone unknowingly tapes my live act and the footage gets out on Youtube?...I'm going to be the one held accountable, right?

If I'm misinterpreting something, please correct me.
Message: Posted by: DougNicols (May 18, 2010 11:44am)
Don't forget if you die, your executor must destroy the DVD or return it to the
Company. Or else you'll be in violation of the agreement (even though you're dead). So be sure to add this effect to your will, or your family could get sued!
Message: Posted by: A.J. (May 18, 2010 1:27pm)
I was in Vegas recently and had an opportunity to visit Bob. He showed me the show footage of The Blades. The show was filmed in a theatre on a cruise ship. I didn't see the instructional part...but, boy, I wish I did.

The routine is a masterpiece. The first half of the routine is hilarious. Scott had 1000 people cracking up. The comedy was a combination of jokes and visual gags. I've never seen or heard any these gags before, really funny stuff.

The second half of the routine was done to music. OMG! The way it all fit together was perfect. You can tell that he's done this routine for many, many years.

What I really liked was I've seen magicians do the razor blades before but not with the reaction Scott got from the audience.

I also hate to admit it, but he totally fooled me. I thought I knew how the trick is done but I have no idea.

I'm not a working-pro but if I was, I'd be all over The Blades....it's just that good. From start to finish, a great routine.

A.J.
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 18, 2010 1:58pm)
Hi Keith,
You bring up valid questions. Here are clarifications.

1) The license DOES NOT limit performers from using the routine in Las Vegas (i.e. Clark County, NV) for corporate or private shows. Th limitation only covers public paid venues that sell tickets to the public such as Lance Burton etc.

2) Television rights are reserved. Nothing kills a routines effectiveness faster than having it appear on television. Once it appears on television there will be copies available of the routine instantly available.
Another major issue is that whoever performs it first on television especially nationally will become recognized for the routine. Reserving Television Rights gives you more protection and value.

3) Accidental exposure is policed by Bob Kohler Magic. If a video of the routine appears on YouTube our legal team will have it removed asap. We have a long standing relationship with YouTube. We'll know if you put it up or not.

You are not accountable for accidental exposure. But it's in your best interest to have a clause in your contracts and to do everything in your power to stop any video of your act not just The Blades appearing without your permission. Let's face it, in this digital age magic is tough. Once a routine is on video the viewer can watch it over and over. This gives them a much better opportunity to deduce the secret.

Another good reason to limit video is heaven help you if you have a catastrophic event happen during your show and it's captured on video. You can instantly become famous for the wrong reasons.

All of the major shows in Las Vegas do not permit video from Cirque Du Soleil to Penn & Teller. Pros protect their shows content. Two weeks ago I was at a show in Vegas. A person started shooting the show with their iPhone two rows in front of me. Within 30 seconds they were asked to stop and forced to delete the file. Nice.

Still it could happen. If we find out video of The Blades is on the internet we'll do our best to have the video removed.

The License & Confidentiality Agreement is a powerful tool. I used it to protect the Fitch-Kohler Holdout System and it still has not been compromised.

4) The Video Rights restriction does extend to promo material as you stated.

I completely understand that this release has limitations. I also know that this product is not for everybody.
But the facts are the world has changed and we have to change with it. This release is our solution.

All products are driven by supply and demand. No one is being forced to purchase the product. For those that it works for we couldn't be happier. The routine is fantastic and very special.

For those who don't agree with our vision and efforts to protect the routine's integrity, it's value and our customer's investment, no problem.

I hope that as performers consider The Blades and our strategy for protecting both the product and our clients investment they'll see that the value contained is much greater than the limitations. I wish we lived in a perfect world, but the reality is we do not.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (May 18, 2010 2:08pm)
The comments above are to be expected, of course this is a very high price to pay. But those who are familiar with Scott's work will be fairly certain that here is a piece of excellent magic, brilliantly thought-out, and professionally executed. When I bought "The Final Answer" (even though I was sure I knew the method - and I was right), I was overwhelmed with the whole routine, and the excellent gimmick. It remains one of my most treasured routines. I've changed a lot of things, and have made it entirely my own. The price of $400 was a snip, because it's brought me in SO many repeat bookings. But anyone who's seen Scott's original presentation would straight away recognise the source of my routine.
Though it might not be "small change", the price for "The Blades" is absolutely right in my opinion. Not TOO pricey, but not too cheap either - a professional magician shouldn't think twice about investing this kind of money, if they require a solid, audience tested routine.
Sure, come up with your own presentation. I will try to make this as much "my own" as I can. But as with "Final Answer", there will be elements which come from Scott which mere mortals are unlikely to devise on their own.
It's simple: would you like to be able to perform one of the top routines from one of the World's leading comedy magicians? Do you think you're up to it? If the answer is "yes", then this is for you. If you want your act to be TOTALLY original, then stop visiting the Magic Café, reading magic books, watching DVDs, and just sit alone and dream up something that no one has ever thought of before.
"All art is theft" - but if you pay the piper, then you can play the tune too!
My opinion
Potty :)
Message: Posted by: Caliban (May 18, 2010 3:02pm)
Quote:

On 2010-05-18 13:58, Bob Kohler wrote:
Television rights are reserved. Nothing kills a routines effectiveness faster than having it appear on television. Once it appears on television there will be copies available of the routine instantly available.
Another major issue is that whoever performs it first on television especially nationally will become recognized for the routine. Reserving Television Rights gives you more protection and value.



That's certainly a valid argument IF Scott has made a commitment not to perform it on television either. I'd say there's a big difference between a routine that the buyer knows will never be broadcast on television (which does offer a great deal of protection and value to a working pro) and a routine that only the creator can perform on television (which mostly offers protection to the creator and makes the buyer look like the copyist if the creator performs it on TV).
Message: Posted by: Todd Bernard (May 18, 2010 10:19pm)
Here's a question. What legal rights does one have to make such restrictions? And, can it actually hold up in a court of law if someone does decide to perform it on t.v, or use it in a promo video, etc? In other words, doesn't such a contract agreement require a signed signature by both parties to make it legally binding?

I always believed that when one sells a trick, or routine, especially a intructional DVD, the buyer has full rights to perform it. Of course there are copyright laws on reproducing the DVD, but I would be interrested to know what law protects the seller's restrictions from an actual legal standpoint.

Seriously. What law protects the seller when making such restrictions, if any?
Message: Posted by: Magicjg (May 18, 2010 10:58pm)
HAHA Wow. I was just asking the price to make sure. Didn't realize it was going to drive the conversation to professionals not professional. hahaha. I'm a working professional ( this is my sole and only job) for 4 years now. I still think that's a large chunk of change, even though I make a good living. Doesn't mean I'm not going to buy it, just think it's a large chunk of change. I met Scott last year at the MAES convention where he was performing. We hung out and he is a great guy. I would trust any routine coming from this guy.
Message: Posted by: lebowski (May 18, 2010 11:17pm)
Todd asks "What legal rights does one have to make such restrictions?" A signed agreement from the purchaser is a contract and a contract is a legal binding document. What is so hard to understand about that? But I think enforcing that contract if one violates the agreement could be tricky.
Message: Posted by: Todd Bernard (May 19, 2010 1:43am)
So, is there a signed agreement required by the purchaser then?
Message: Posted by: Steve Hook (May 19, 2010 2:46am)
Quote:

On 2010-05-19 01:43, Todd Bernard wrote:
So, is there a signed agreement required by the purchaser then?



The link to the nine page agreement is at the bottom of Bob's ad:

https://www.bobkohlermagic.com/_docs/ltsa.pdf

.
Message: Posted by: Caliban (May 19, 2010 5:21am)
Quote:

On 2010-05-18 22:19, Todd Bernard wrote:
Here's a question. What legal rights does one have to make such restrictions? And, can it actually hold up in a court of law if someone does decide to perform it on t.v, or use it in a promo video, etc? In other words, doesn't such a contract agreement require a signed signature by both parties to make it legally binding?



A contract just needs to be shown to have been accepted, it doesn't always need a signature. I'm sure that you've often had to click that you accept a user agreement before you can install a software program - well this is the same sort of deal. You have to agree to the contract before you are able to make the purchase.

Some magic manuscripts have a "TV rights reserved" clause printed inside that you know nothing about until after purchase. This is bad form and can only really be regarded as a (very cheeky) request from the creator rather than an agreement. It wouldn't stand up in any court because it wasn't agreed to before purchase and there's a firmly established precedent that when you purchase a magic routine you have full performance rights.

Bob's agreement for The Blades, on the other hand, IS valid and enforceable because all the terms of the agreement are clearly outlined before you can make the purchase and you have to agree that you accept those terms before the sale goes through. It looks like you have to actually print off the contract, sign it and send it back before your order is dispached.
Message: Posted by: dking66 (May 19, 2010 10:59am)
I was looking forward to the release of this. But, this is an absolute turn-off! What is the sale of magic products coming to?
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 19, 2010 11:21am)
I have spent a lot of time and a considerable investment consulting entertainment experts and lawyers about protecting our products.

Let me give you a real world example. Yesterday I bumped into Kevin Burke. Kevin has two shows in Las Vegas. He's the star of his own show at Fitzgerald's and he's also the the star of "Confessions Of A Caveman" which is at the Excalibur. If you find yourself in Vegas make sure you see both shows, they're great!

What applies to this conversation is "Confessions Of A Caveman". If you're not familiar with this show it started in Chicago over twenty years ago. It was written and performed by it's author as a one man play.
It's protected a special form of copyright "Copyright PA". The PA stands for performing arts.

Kevin Burke was the first actor to perform "the Caveman" beside the creator. Eventually the Rights to the show's Copyright we sold.

The new owners now License the Rights to "Confessions Of A Caveman". The play is now being performed all over the world in live performance. However is has not yet been on television. They have not licensed the rights for television performance. If the Television Rights are sold it would be for a very large amount of money.

"The Blades" is protected by the same Copyright. It is also protected by the California Trade Secret Agreement. Each purchaser must download the License & Confidentiality Agreement from my website, sign and return it to me before we ship the product.

This License & Confidentiality Agreement is a binding legal contract. It is valid. It will certainly hold up in court.

You can download and read this document. The terms are in in black and white. Television Rights are reserved.

In the past many products have been sold to magicians who later find out that the seller has attempted to reserve the television rights. This is a different situation. Scott and I are stating up front that the Television Rights are reserved.

Personally I have to say that I hate that we have to go down a legal path to protect the product but the rampant copying, trading, and stealing has forced us to do so to protect our clients and our investment.

I can also tell you that many of the top creators in magic are watching this release very closely. A lot of truly great material has never been released because the creators knew that until now the chances of their products "vanishing" has been 100%.

If our release of "The Blades" is successful I predict that this will create a new benchmark and more high-end products will be released the same way.
Message: Posted by: Review King (May 19, 2010 11:25am)
Imagine if this protection was given to TT's and IT? It's long overdue!

Chris
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (May 19, 2010 12:35pm)
Perhaps what is throwing people for a loop is consistency. Bob used a "high-priced leasing agreement" with the holdout so he has experience with it.

Scott Alexander products:

TFA: no agreement/lease
Shattered: no agreement/lease
Velocity: no agreement/lease
Slashed: no agreement/lease

all of these routines were "high-end priced," well tested, professional routines. Why "Blades?" It this routine "better" than the others? Why worried about youtube, copying, etc. with THIS one? Why can I resell the others but not THIS one?

So it's mainly the routine we're buying? That's mainly what we bought with slashed too. (Search some threads on that)

Well, those are the things that make ME go hmmmmm. But at the end of the day, the answer is: "Scott had conditions. Stringent conditions we had to meet or he wouldn't release 'The Blades'."

s
Message: Posted by: lebowski (May 19, 2010 12:42pm)
Likely it is BECAUSE the other Alexander products have been resold / copied that there is a change of policy for his products. Wouldn't surprise me if others follow suit for pro quality material.
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (May 19, 2010 2:17pm)
Quote:

On 2010-05-19 12:42, lebowski wrote:
Likely it is BECAUSE the other Alexander products have been resold / copied that there is a change of policy for his products.



1. Who are all these people copying/stealing/performing the routine without buying it somewhere? I haven't seen one complaint/mention here.

2. You mean.....he didn't realize it would happen? I guess someone told him after "Slashed?" Bob must have known. He licensed his holdout. Why wait?

3. is it?

s
Message: Posted by: lebowski (May 19, 2010 3:05pm)
Perhaps you are not familiar with all the torrent sites or the vast 2nd hand tricks for sale market. As to why one would wait, or why we don't see more of this already, I don't know.
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 19, 2010 5:00pm)
The answer is very simple. We are learning as we go.

When we released the FK Holdout with the agreement we were probably one of the first companies to use the California Trade Secret Agreement to protect a non-software product.

The landscape keeps changing so the solutions are changing with the times. Hindsight is always perfect. I wish I could go back in time and release all of our Pro-Line products using the current plan.

You also have to consider how much more work it is for us to release a product like The Blades. It takes much more time and money with additional paperwork, legal fees, copyright fees and manufacturing the DVD's one by one with the clients digital watermark.

In the end this all costs money. Just like convenience store prices are driven up by shoplifters, this additional work and costs makes the retail price higher.

Magicians without ethics are the one's molding the future. Artists and manufacturers are just responding to do their best to protect the products integrity.
Message: Posted by: lebowski (May 19, 2010 5:03pm)
Bob why wasn't this done with Confessions of a Needles Swallower or the Mindreading Goose?
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 19, 2010 5:34pm)
Same answer...
If I' had figured out that combining the Trade Secret Agreement with the License and the Copyright PA before those products were released I would certainly have done it.
Message: Posted by: insight (May 19, 2010 6:33pm)
Bob Kohler,

I commend your release to the magic community. I'm coming out with a Mental Prediction effect, and I may decide to release it in the same manner to promote the concept of exclusivity. I like it!

Regards,
Mike
Message: Posted by: Todd Bernard (May 20, 2010 1:01am)
I was originally curious about this whole thing because if what was being said was actually true, and legally binding, this would be a way for creator's to protect their stuff.

But...I have been looking into Performing Arts Copyrights, and discovered some very interresting information.

First, the fee to register for a PA Copyright is $35.00, and it can be done via internet.

The PA Copyright from what I understand does not put protection on someone using the method/trick, and coming up with their own original routine and patter and performing it where ever they want. The PA Copyright is actually very limited it what it can protect.

Dramatic Arts/Performing Arts
In order for a work to be classified in this category, there needs to be a dramatic element to it. These works are created with the intention of being performed for an audience, either directly (live show) or indirectly (over the T.V). Some examples of these works include:

• Screenplays
Screenplays are written with the intention of being produced or performed. These could include, but are not limited to scripts for: plays, radio shows, movies, television shows, comedy acts, etc.

• Musical Works
Musical Works are considered compositions or songs that may or may not include words. As long as the dramatic nature of the work has been put in a tangible form (paper, CD, hard drive, etc.) it is protected under copyright law.
Note: although confusing, ‘Sound Recordings’ is a separate copyright subject than Musical Works. It will be discussed below in greater detail.

• Audio-Visual Works (movies)
Audio-Visual works are often referred to as ‘cinematographs’. These works must have been expressed in some form of ‘moving photography’. Examples include: movies, television programs, home videos, news coverage, and improvised acts.

• Sound Tracks
These are protected under Dramatic Arts/Performing arts as long as they accompany the cinematograph (movie).

• Choreographic Works (dance routines)
Similar to stories, it’s not the individual steps or movements that are protected by copyright law, but the choreography sequences. Remember – to be eligible for copyright, the choreography must be recorded into a fixed form (paper, filmed).

3. Sound Recordings
Sound Recordings do not fall under ‘Musical Works’ because they protect the manner in which the sound is performed as well as the actual performance. They cover the actual fixed version of musical compositions or musical works (the actual sounds that were recorded). Sound recording copyrights are often owned by the performer, producer or, recording company.
Musical works intended to accompany a movie or other audiovisual work should be registered in the Dramatic/Performing arts category.

Examples of sound recordings include:
• recordings of music,
• recordings of drama
• recordings of lectures
• recordings of nature sounds

You can protect the choreography sequences, and maybe the actual routine that Scott Alexander uses when performing the illusion, but you can not protect it from someone who uses the trick, comes up with their own original routine and choreography and performs it where ever they want. Actually, if they do not use Scott's routine, they are free to perform it anywhere they want.

In regards to this written contract. I believe that a contract agreement must meet certain criteria's set out by the State or province it is written in, and then can only hold up within it's legal jurisdiction. In otherwords, it may not be a legal binding contract outside of the State or country.

I was reading about unreasonable demands or requests made in a contract that will not be upheld in court even though all parties signed to it. For example. A contract may state that one must stand on his head while performing the trick. This would be considered unreasonable, and would not be legally binding. Also, any written contract cannot over rule and other laws already in effect. One being, if a seller sells an item, the buyer may legally choose to do with it as they wish, including and not limited to resale.

I'm no lawyer, and I don't want to over do it in this thread with everything I found out, but anyone can do their own research if they want to find out more about PA Copyrights, and legally binding contracts. There is a wealth of info out there.

To sum it up, the only thing protected is the exact routine that Scott performs, not the trick, nor the method. Nor does it protect Scott from someone performing the trick with their own original routine on television, or on promo videos, or anywhere else.

If a PA Copyright was actually filed, a certificate of registration would of been issued. Any chance of seeing a copy of this certificate of registration? Does the buyer receive a copy of this certificate of registration?

Or, am I completely wrong, and have all my infomation wrong? Perhaps the US copyright office site I visited is full of crock.(lol)
Message: Posted by: Todd Bernard (May 20, 2010 2:23am)
I was also reading up on California Trade Secret Agreement. Good luck with that one.

Apparently if you sell a trade secret to the public, it's no longer a trade secret. You can't sell a magic secret and call it a trade secret and actually believe that a court will consider it a trade secret. That's not what a trade secret agreement is for.

You would have to prove that it is a trade secret. A little hard to do when you are actually selling the trade secret on the open market. That would be like microsoft selling their trade secrets on the open market and then trying to sue anyone who uses those trade secrets.

There are two types of trade secret agreement. Non-disclosure agreements, and Non-Compete Agreements. If anyone is interrested in learning more about trade secrets just google. I'd rather not waste anymore time with this non-sense.
Message: Posted by: ArtIn (May 20, 2010 5:00am)
Todd thanks for the research, very interesting informations
Message: Posted by: Review King (May 20, 2010 12:58pm)
I would think anyone purchasing The Blades would be a professional performer and would honor all agreements. Sort of an exclusive club protecting itself sort of thing.

Chris
Message: Posted by: korttihai_82 (May 20, 2010 2:49pm)
I don't really understand why people are trying to find holes in the agreement? don't you guys get it that it isn't deviced to make your life harder but to protect your possible investment and magic in general?!?!? If you insist on doing razorblades on TV or magic convention JUST get other method... There is many on the market. Or just do the needles by Steve Spill and save 750$. It is absolutely fantastic and I was amazed that it was not on the proline.

However, I do agree some writers who are worried on the pricing... Again 800$ is not much for working pro (not even one gig), but without seeing it can still be a sting... Especially when comparing the earlier Kohler and Alexander products.

Now lets be really honest... They havent really been really really original presentation or effectwise. Slashed, Tabary rope routine with gimmicked rope. Final Answer, Seabrookes burn note meets Steve Spill bill in lemon. Methodwise at least Alan from Spain has done bill in egg with very similar method for years. Human phonenumber is very similar to Barrie Richardsons routine methodwise.

don't get me wrong, these all have been wonderfull products and I own both Slashed and Final Answer... However, even all the hype, I don't use either of them. For me, they are not "the best" on the market as advertised.

Similarly the blades advertisement is little scary... Again it is supposed to be "the best"... Give out standing ovation... Claiming that something is "the best" is allways subjective. Also, claiming that something will get standing ovations is quite bold. Well, if you end the routine with national hymn that might get the job done allways, but in the end, not a single trick will get standing ovation. The performer will get it if he is good enough. Bad performer just wont get them even with amazing material. Also, standing ovation is very cultural thing... The consept of standing ovation isn't nearly as common in europe as it is in States.

Hehe, I guess I am lucky that I am not really interested in adding the razorblades into my act. Those pros who are interested in it however might have tougher time on making the investment, because if it wont fit them they don't have a way to get rid off it and therefore they might spend 800$ on nothing. Luckily at least in Finland, that is at least tax deductable :D

Juha-Matti
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (May 20, 2010 5:01pm)
Juha-Matti, I'm curious which Bill in Lemon methods you think are superior to "Final Answer". I've studied the effect extensively, and sincerely believe FA is absoultely the best, bar none! It's gotten me several standing ovations over the years, and no one has EVER called me on the method.
Bottom line is, you're buying a thoroughly audience-tested routine that has stood up to hundreds of performances, been fine-tuned, and is ready to go. There are many working pros, (myself included) who simply could not create routines as special as these. We all have our stregths and weaknesses. I can deliver a performance with panache, but to devise and create the ingenious routines that Scott Alexander comes up with, is frankly, out of my league. I'm a very happy camper, being able to include such show-stopping, jaw-dropping effects in my shows.
For the price, I consider FA a gift, and when I put "The Blades" into my show, I'm sure I'll feel the same.
Potty :)
Message: Posted by: takeachance (May 20, 2010 5:27pm)
Lets not drag that argument up again, its been well discussed on another BIL forum. Its very subjective to personnal opinion which is the best. The FA is certainly up there, and if it works for you then great. Lets stick to The Blades. A solid scripted routine and method, if suited to your persona is well worth the asking price. Not so sure why the contract is being questioned here, this has got to be a good thing for magic in general and I hope it works out. BK tends to concentrate on marketing very clever methods supported with professional scripts and for me, the scripts are where a lot of the value is, not just props. What you really need to do is a bit of home work to see if the performers work being offered will suit you before hitting the buy button. Alexander has enough out there for people to be able to make that informed decision IMHO
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 20, 2010 6:09pm)
Todd,
The legal aspects are without question interesting, complex and very deep. I am not a lawyer but I do hire them. I know they know what they are doing and I trust them.

Whenever I read legal documents I realize that lawyers have created a language only they can fully understand. The other thing most are great at is debate. Whenever I enter into the legal world I understand why Shakespeare said "Kill all of the lawyers".

I think it's great you took the time to learn about our protection. The bottom line is it takes all three things, the copyright, the license and the Trade Secret Agreement to do the job. Each one takes care of certain issues. All three have to be in place.

The Copyright PA protects Scott's script. That's it.

The California Trade Secret Agreement does work for magic. First you need to establish that what you're protecting is a trade secret. The best way to do this is get a group of known experts to agree that what you have is in fact a secret of your trade. We've done this starting with the FK Holdout. The experts have signed a separate document that sets the date and time the secret was revealed to them. If we have to go to court we can have expert testimony in our behalf that the information is in fact a trade secret.

These same points have been addressed since Bob Fitch and I released the Fitch Kohler Holdout System. If you do a search you'll find many forums that have had discussions on the pros and cons of using the Trade Secret Agreement. You'll discover opinions that are for each side. I've read opinions from magicians who are actually lawyers. They offer pros and cons too.

It's interesting that even full time professional lawyers have different opinions concerning our plan and using this agreement for protecting magic.

My only goal was to protect the Fitch Kohler Professional Holdout System. It's been out for over 7 years. It still has not been compromised. The secret has not been on TV but magician's have used it as a secret weapon in their television performances. The training DVD's have not been sold or put on Bit Torrent as far as I know.

We've had less than ten magicians who leased the FK Holdout System decide it was not for them and they transferred the lease to another magician according to the agreement.

So the question is has the strategy been successful. Absolutely 100% yes. The product has not been knocked off or revealed. We have been contacted by magic companies who in the past have knocked off other products attempting to buy the rights to manufacture our system. We refused these offers and none the the companies put out anything like our designs.

We've never had to test our strategy in court. We have not had any issues with the product at all.

"The Blades" is a different story. This product has equipment but it's not as impossible to make like the parts to the FK Holdout. Our holdout required a genius craftsman, Thomas Wayne to manufacture. So our task in this case is different. We're taking the necessary steps to protect the intellectual property of this release with some additional tools.

After seven years I feel good about putting out the FK Holdout System, the quality of the product and the value our clients received for trusting in us. I hope in seven more years I can look back and see that the integrity of this release is still intact. Only time will tell.
Message: Posted by: Todd Bernard (May 21, 2010 12:52am)
I think that every performer should have respect for other performers, but the truth is, there is little real respect amongst performers today.

I'm not saying there is none, just very little. Thus the reason why you, Bob feel such a strong need to want to protect the material.

You know as well as I now know, that there is a good chance the contracts or the supposed PA Copyright, and Trade Secret Agreement wouldn't do much to protect the material if it did go to court. Not mentioning the amount of money it would cost you to file a claim.

As far as a trade secret agreement goes, one would have to prove in court that it is indeed a trade secret. Which alone is a very hard task to do. But, the proof gets compromised when the owner sells the supposed trade secret on the open market. Thereby making it extremely hard to prove that it is a trade secret.

I see what you are trying to do though, and I commend you for it. It is indeed a step in the right direction. I was wishing that there would be a more stronger protection than the one you imply though.

Reviewking, I would hope so too. Magicians stealing from magicians goes way back to the beginning of performing magic. Magicians were always spying on each other, stealing routines, and tricks. It's nothing new.

Now we have magic clubs, associations, conventions, lectures, etc, yet even some of the best of us will resort to stealing. Especially the ones who say they would never do such a thing. :)

By the way, are you a professional performer yourself?
Message: Posted by: Review King (May 21, 2010 1:25am)
Quote:

On 2010-05-21 00:52, Todd Bernard wrote:
By the way, are you a professional performer yourself?



Think of the worst performer you've ever seen. I'm slightly worse.

Chris
Message: Posted by: Steve Hook (May 21, 2010 1:45am)
Chris, you're too modest.
Message: Posted by: Todd Bernard (May 21, 2010 2:37am)
Quote:

On 2010-05-21 01:25, Review King wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-05-21 00:52, Todd Bernard wrote:
By the way, are you a professional performer yourself?



Think of the worst performer you've ever seen. I'm slightly worse.

Chris



That directly wasn't answering my question, but I'm old enough to know when someone is diverting away from answering a question.

There's nothing wrong with not being a professional performer, and my intentions wasn't to put you on the spot.
Message: Posted by: Kamal (May 21, 2010 8:43am)
I've got a few Scott Alexander items, and this looks like another winner - so I'll be buying it.
Message: Posted by: korttihai_82 (May 21, 2010 9:31am)
Quote:

On 2010-05-20 17:01, Potty the Pirate wrote:
Juha-Matti, I'm curious which Bill in Lemon methods you think are superior to "Final Answer". I've studied the effect extensively, and sincerely believe FA is absoultely the best, bar none!



For my use both Doug Malloy Lemon Game and Cody Fishers bet your bucks have proven to be much better solutions. I wrote a lengthy topic about them somewhere in the Café. You should be able to find it with ease by using search. My reasoning is clearly stated in there :)

Juha-Matti
Message: Posted by: Markku (May 21, 2010 10:16am)
In final answer, only problem is routine. Its very funny but its only for adults. Also in some situations its better to NOT tell drug jokes if there is lot of old peoples. They could think that trick wasnt so funny... You maybe need to change routine little bit. Bet your buck and Lemon game routine you can do everywere. It doesn't matter if there is couple of kids in audience.

Its really nice to see some reviews. Hard to believe that razor blade routine can be so special its really worth of 800$. If you spend 20$ you get very good razor blade routine. Is difference worth of 780$!? I bet you get couple of sick jokes how make suicide by cutting your wrist open using razor blade. Very funny hah hah haa or then not :(
Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (May 21, 2010 4:33pm)
I've been following this topic with great interest for a number of reasons not the least which is because I am also a creator of effects and a producer and publisher of DVDs.

Having said that, I would remind everyone that the LATEST & GREATEST forum is all about speculation of new products (see forum Rules) and not actually a review area. Also, we are here to discuss whether or not a product will be great and useful, not to challenge the legal or manufacturing decisions of the creators behind such products.

Having said all that I feel I should add some food for thought here:

Todd Bernard said; "What legal rights does one have to make such restrictions? And, can it actually hold up in a court of law if someone does decide to perform it on t.v, or use it in a promo video, etc?."

That one is easy Todd - he's the guy putting the product out and he has every right to do so in a manner that he is comfortable with - period.
Besides, Mr. Kohler clearly explains things early on, but just in case anyone missed it:

Bob Kohler said; "I completely understand that this release has limitations. I also know that this product is not for everybody.
But the facts are the world has changed and we have to change with it. This release is our solution.

All products are driven by supply and demand. No one is being forced to purchase the product. For those that it works for we couldn't be happier. The routine is fantastic and very special.

For those who don't agree with our vision and efforts to protect the routine's integrity, it's value and our customer's investment, no problem
."

What part don't you understand Todd?

Todd Bernard said; "
I'm no lawyer, and I don't want to over do it in this thread with everything I found out, but anyone can do their own research if they want to find out more about PA Copyrights, and legally binding contracts. There is a wealth of info out there
"

No, you're not a lawyer. So, why are you going down the legal path? If people want to do research on the subject the Internet is full of information and such data can easily be found by anyone with a true desire to find it.

But why would they want to? They either have an interest in purchasing a product based on its quality and what it does or they don't - simple as that. In regards to the price, heck I have sets of coins that cost near as much.

So Todd - what is the point of all your posts which have absolutely nothing to do with the scope of this forum? Are you going to purchase this? If so, I still haven't a clue why you are so concerned about Mr. Kohler's choices in how he releases a product. If you are a law abiding citizen such choices should not bother you.

Todd Bernard said; "I see what you are trying to do though, and I commend you for it. It is indeed a step in the right direction. I was wishing that there would be a more stronger protection than the one you imply though."

Since you understand Bob's motives there shouldn't be an issue here.

Bob Kohler said; "Magicians without ethics are the one's molding the future. Artists and manufacturers are just responding to do their best to protect the products integrity"

I agree.

Folks, I really think its time to move back to discussing the effect proper.

Thank you. :)
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (May 21, 2010 5:48pm)
Quote:

On 2010-05-21 09:31, korttihai_82 wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-05-20 17:01, Potty the Pirate wrote:
Juha-Matti, I'm curious which Bill in Lemon methods you think are superior to "Final Answer". I've studied the effect extensively, and sincerely believe FA is absoultely the best, bar none!



For my use both Doug Malloy Lemon Game and Cody Fishers bet your bucks have proven to be much better solutions. I wrote a lengthy topic about them somewhere in the Café. You should be able to find it with ease by using search. My reasoning is clearly stated in there :)

Juha-Matti


...yet, with Lemon Game, the lemon is not out in the audience before the bill is vanished, nor is the spectator able to handle the lemon more than for a moment. My handling of FA allows the spectator to freely handle the lemon before it's cut open. Though the free handling of the lemon is not included on Scott's DVD (the only one of these three routines that comes with a fully fleshed-out routine, gags and all), it's easy to work out how to make this possible. Just a simple move, and a much more satisfactory solution than Cody's, which is OK, but not really ideal.
Bet Your Bucks - Cody fisher has a serious talking problem which to my knowledge has never been really addressed. Again, the lemon is NOT out in the audience before the bill is removed from play. In my opinion, this is what makes FA vastly superior to both methods. When I saw Cody perform his version, I heard such a loud "clunk!", I'm afraid it rather gave the game away for me. Though I do love the prop, it's very cool.
As to the drugs reference in FA, well, it's just a very short one-liner. My performances are mostly for family audiences, and of course, I cut this line. Why on Earth would the fact that Scott provides this line mean that you HAVE to include it?
Of course, it's down to personal preference, but for my money, putting the lemon out into the audience BEFORE the bill is taken out of play makes this version unbeatable. Also, the handling is quite brilliant. Yes, I studied over 30 versions of Bill in Lemon, and no one has it down like Scott does - my opinion!
And that's part of the reason I rate Scott's work so highly - he comes up with solutions which are remarkable and ingenious.
Potty :)
Message: Posted by: Cody S. Fisher (May 21, 2010 7:14pm)
Potty,

This thread is not about "bill to lemon tricks". I know you hate my version, you have made it very clear several times on several threads. It's a moot point since my version is no longer available anyway. BTW there is no "serious talking problem" with my routine...it kills...as does Scotts wonderful version.

And now back to our regularly scheduled thread on "The Blades"...

Sincerely,
Cody S. Fisher
Message: Posted by: cairo (May 21, 2010 7:34pm)
Also off topic. Cody I like your avatar.
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 21, 2010 8:58pm)
Magic is sort of like buying shoes. Everybody has different needs and personal taste.
One person has to have Berluti which costs $1850.00 a pair while another guy just likes good old sneakers that cost $18.50. In the end, both are completely satisfied with their new shoes.

Life would be so boring if all of us were the same. Fortunately, there are many great routines for all of the classics. You can pick and choose what fits you.

Many people tend to think only in black and white. They think a product is either good or bad. I don't think this is usually the case. I tend to look for the good in everything. I've seen a lot of magic both good and bad. I learn different things from both sides. But I think it's smart to try and glean good ideas even from the worst routines. Sometimes the best idea is hidden in the darkest possible place.

Professional products like Cody's or Scott's routines are proven material. They work for their creators and they work for the magicians who invest in them, put some time into learning the routine and then keep polishing the routine until it becomes "them". At this point the routine fits you like a glove not a shoe.

It doesn't matter if you've changed the routines method and presentation a lot or a little. The real thing here is you've taken the time to understand what and why the creator does it like he does and the thinking behind it.

When you start with a routine that has been really audience tested for years you really should try to do the routine as the creator a few times. You may be surprised just how well it works.

As far as the classic razor blades are concerned, with The Blades Scott has done all of the work for you. When I learned it I decided not to change a single thing.
Message: Posted by: magicmind (May 21, 2010 9:35pm)
Quote:

On 2010-05-18 15:02, Caliban wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-05-18 13:58, Bob Kohler wrote:
Television rights are reserved. Nothing kills a routines effectiveness faster than having it appear on television.....
Another major issue is that whoever performs it first on television especially nationally will become recognized for the routine.
2) Television rights are reserved. Nothing kills a routines effectiveness faster than having it appear on television. Once it appears on television there will be copies available of the routine instantly available.
Another major issue is that whoever performs it first on television especially nationally will become recognized for the routine. Reserving Television Rights gives you more protection and value.



That's certainly a valid argument IF Scott has made a commitment not to perform it on television either. I'd say there's a big difference between a routine that the buyer knows will never be broadcast on television (which does offer a great deal of protection and value to a working pro) and a routine that only the creator can perform on television (which mostly offers protection to the creator and makes the buyer look like the copyist if the creator performs it on TV).


Agree, you spend $800...they sell 12. Scott books the TV gig performs...now all your corporate or cruise ship jobs....you look like the guy that "is doing the trick that other guy did on TV". Just like someone in a small town show copying DC. You look like the copycat trying to be like the guy on TV.

"2) Television rights are reserved. Nothing kills a routines effectiveness faster than having it appear on television. Once it appears on television there will be copies available of the routine instantly available.
Another major issue is that whoever performs it first on television especially nationally will become recognized for the routine. "
"Reserving Television Rights gives you more protection and value. " How?
Message: Posted by: takeachance (May 22, 2010 2:14am)
Does this have to be a closer or can it be performed any time during your act? Do you have to leave the stage to clean up so to speak. Is it suitable for more intimate venues or a parlor performance size area.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (May 22, 2010 4:43am)
Quote:

On 2010-05-21 19:14, Cody S. Fisher wrote:
Potty,

This thread is not about "bill to lemon tricks". I know you hate my version, you have made it very clear several times on several threads. It's a moot point since my version is no longer available anyway. BTW there is no "serious talking problem" with my routine...it kills...as does Scotts wonderful version.

And now back to our regularly scheduled thread on "The Blades"...

Sincerely,
Cody S. Fisher
Sorry if this is getting a little off-topic, but I would like to respond to your post - Cody, you've got me all wrong. I do NOT hate your version. In fact, I own it, and am not about to part with it. Your version is one of the SIMPLEST to perform, and the prop is wonderful. I use it for a completely different effect. I simply find Scott's version the best for me, and the routining leaves the audience nowhere to go when deconstructing the method.
Please don't take offence, I was actually trying to make the point that Scott's products are first rate. My apologies if I did stray off-topic a little too much.
Hope this clears things up,
Doug

Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 22, 2010 10:39am)
The Blades will work either on stage or in parlor situations.

You both start and end clean. It's totally practical. If you read the story of my visit to Caesar's Magic Empire on the product page on my web site https://www.bobkohlermagic.com/view-product.cfm?productid=65
you'll see just how practical and powerful this routine is.
Message: Posted by: Todd Bernard (May 22, 2010 1:32pm)
In all respect, I believe the legality is very much a part of the topic considering that one is not just purchasing the routine, but the supposed legal protection of it as well.

I became interrested in this thread because I thought there was now a way for a creator to legally protect their material. I asked some straight questions, but didn't get straight answers so I did what anyone should do before making such a large investment. I researched it.

Yes, I am no lawyer, but a person doesn't need to be a lawyer to understand what the laws are. I don't think there is anything wrong with bringing up the supposed legal protection of the said routine.

The legal protecting is not only in the advertisment, but has also previously been mentioned here by Bob himself. It's being used as selling feature and a justification as to why the price is $800.00.

I was merely being pro-active in finding out more about this legal protection, and how much weight it would hold up in a court of law if someone was to breach the written agreement and expose the routine on t.v, or all over the many video channels on the internet.

A consumer is spending $800.00 not just for the routine, but for the legal protection that their investment is legally protected so that they can feel safe in knowing that they have a routine that won't be exposed. It is only wise of someone to check it out for themselves before blindly basing thier purchase of the routine on that premise.

I'd hate to spend $800 on a routine that told me it was legally protected so that no one can legally expose it on t.v or anywhere else only to find it exposed on t.v, or anywhere else by another magician who has no ethics what-so-ever, and no legal action was being put forward against the guilty party.

I believe that asking $800 is sufficient enough to keep the routine out of the hands of the curious, and sufficient enough to limit the amount of performers who will perform it. I also think that the written agreement is sufficient. If anyone should break that agreement, they should be shunned by the magic community and exposed all through the media, hopefully destroying any reputation and trust they may have.

I thought my motive was clear from the start. I mean no disresect to anyone for being pro-active and taking the caution decision of researching it for myself. There really shouldn't be any concern about someone questioning the legalities if the legal protection of the routine is as legally binding as it claims to be. My personal findings have found that it would be very hard to take someone to court and hold them legally to it, not mentioning how expensive it would be for the claimant.

I could of shared more of my findings, or pushed to see a copy of the PA Copyright, or Trade Secret License, but my motive wasn't to question if there were actually any legal protection filed, as my intent was to find out how much legal protection I would get with my purchase.


{Todd Bernard said; "
I'm no lawyer, and I don't want to over do it in this thread with everything I found out, but anyone can do their own research if they want to find out more about PA Copyrights, and legally binding contracts. There is a wealth of info out there"

No, you're not a lawyer. So, why are you going down the legal path? If people want to do research on the subject the Internet is full of information and such data can easily be found by anyone with a true desire to find it.

But why would they want to? They either have an interest in purchasing a product based on its quality and what it does or they don't - simple as that. In regards to the price, heck I have sets of coins that cost near as much.}

As I stated earlier, if the legal protection is going to be pitched as a selling feature, then it would only be wise to ask the right questions. Why would someone not ask the right questions? Why would you even say that?
Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (May 22, 2010 3:47pm)
Okay Todd - so your basically saying that you are interested in the routine but are wondering if after spending the moola that you will really be protected from hacks going on tv or exposing stuff, correct?

If that truly be the case then all you can really do here is trust that Kohler and company are sincerely making an effort to protect their customers. I'm no lawyer either but it appears that they have spared no expense in doing so and are using every legal and technological device currently available - I can't see how we can ask anymore from them.

That said, their still isn't any real guarantee's Todd. Everytime you fly across the country you are trusting that the airlines have your best interest in mind and that you will arrive safely. Your participation is an act of faith as it were. When it comes to theft I firmly believe that locks only keep an honest man honest.

In the end, you either take a chance or not. Compared to the majority of products that are produced and sold in magicdom I really can't see how you can go wrong here. On the other hand, it would appear that Mr.Kohler's efforts are not meeting your standards and expectations so perhaps this routine just isn't for you personally? If that be the case their is nothing wrong with that - you can simply move on to another topic or at the very least wait to read actual reviews of the product from various folks when it is finally released to the magic fraternity.
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (May 22, 2010 10:54pm)
Where's the demo? Is there a link somewhere?
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (May 22, 2010 11:35pm)
Didn't you read the thread? no demo.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (May 23, 2010 12:41am)
Quote:

On 2010-05-22 22:54, polygonsmagic wrote:
Where's the demo? Is there a link somewhere?



LOL!!!
Message: Posted by: puckmagic (May 23, 2010 9:10pm)
I've been reading some of these posts laughing out loud. I can't tell where the stage starts and the courtroom ends! :) In any event I wanted to add my personal thoughts on Scott's Razor Blade routine. I had the pleasure of working with Scott on The Pride of Hawaii for NCL on and off for two years. I got to see him kill with this routine every week. I as well as Scott was an assistants to Denny Haney in the Denny & Lee Show. We got to see Denny perform this classic for years. Scott took what we learned watching Denny's performance and created a masterpiece!

I begged Scott to teach me the routine and finally after some time worked out a deal. He taught me everything I needed to know as well as his philosophy when it came to the effect. He studied all the greats like Denny, Richiardi, and John Booth just to name a few. He then honed this routine with up to 8 shows a night at Ceasar"s Magical Empire. He created what I consider to be the perfect presentation. It has enough danger and drama to keep the audience on the edge of their seat. Enough Comedy to smooth everything over so the whole family can laugh and enjoy. Lastly he created the perfect amount of theater, music, and skill to completely fool and entertain just about everyone. To put it in simple terms the routine is an absolute killer and perfectly acceptable to be any magicians closer.

I have been performing Scott's routine for almost four years now with great success. It's easy to learn yet very deceptive. The jokes and gags have never fail to evoke belly laughs from the audience. The musical dynamic makes this play as big as an illusion. The finale' ends clean and leaves the audience bursting with applause. Scott's routine has it all. I perform The Blades every week on the Ship and it has become one of my top routines that the audience always talks about.

I am honored that Scott allowed me to be the only magician to present his wonderful version of this classic until now. I have been very protective and completely agree with the licensing agreement. The price for any working pro is truly inexpensive. After seeing how this has elevated my show I would have paid twice the asking with no reservations.

I have to say that when Scott told me he was releasing this I was less than happy. I was selfish and wanted to be the only other one performing it. After thinking more about it I was happy to see that BK magic was releasing it for him and protecting it with the licensing agreement. Now I know only the serious will be presenting this wonderful routine.

Puck
Message: Posted by: Kamal (May 23, 2010 9:30pm)
So.... when can I get it?
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (May 23, 2010 9:58pm)
Quote:

On 2010-05-23 21:30, Dr K wrote:
So.... when can I get it?



I think this might be too difficult for you.
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 24, 2010 5:16pm)
We've just started shipping.

www.bobkohlermagic.com
Message: Posted by: Alexandermagic (May 24, 2010 6:13pm)
I just went on the Diamond Princess and saw Scott do The Blades in his set. What a clean effect! I burned his hands and it fooled me. I don't do razor blades but am aware of many clever ways to load and/or switch. (Steinmeyer's version in Device And Illusion, Loren Michael's beautiful version and wallet switches). Scott's is better than all of those. He displays the blades(hands are clean), cuts the paper, puts thread in mouth(hands are clean) And there's no "dump" when he breaks the thread. His mouth is unquestionably empty and so are his hands. Then he pops those blades in one at a time. There's clearly no thread on them and they're clearly separate. Then he just reaches in with empty right hand and pulls the suckers out threaded! I assume the really are threaded, but I know they cannot be the same blades. At the end there's no clean up of "other blades" I was fried! What a direct, clean effect. I'm still guessing.............and no I'm not Scott's brother.
Message: Posted by: Kamal (May 24, 2010 8:18pm)
Hmmm - this one is a difficult decision for me.

I've got Steve Spill's Mindreading Goose, Slashed and the Human Phone Number. I'm not one to complain about the price of magic items, but US$800 is no small sum.

Hmmm - I just don't know - especially without seeing it. I mean, Slashed (for me) was part presentation and part method, and I think was fairly priced to take a gamble on without seeing the routine first.

So for 4x as much money for Blades, I have to wonder what I'm getting. I know it's supposed to be methodologically better, and comes with a presentation. But 4x better?

Of course, by my logic, the Mindreading Goose should be 9x better than Slashed - which I think it is. (Not to diminish the value of Slashed, but the Goose is a show-stopper).


Is there some sort of discount for the guys that have purchased your other effects? ;)
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (May 25, 2010 1:34pm)
"I've been reading some of these posts laughing out loud. I can't tell where the stage starts and the courtroom ends!"

I think some of the concerns expressed in this thread are ligitimate. The routine, with no demo, is selling for a large sum of money. The people willing to spend that kind of money are going to be performing professionals or semi-professionals.

The whole "courtroom" part that we aren't used to seeing when we buy a routine, is something to explored, since there are 9 pages of it.

I'm sure a working professional magician wants to know EXACTLY what he can do with his new $800 purchase, and what practical venues can be used within the given guidelines. By the same token, he might also be very interested to know if this legal untested boatload can actually protect his investment by keeping it exclusive. Since the sales price seems to reflect some or all of the legal expense used to protect the owner, the customer may want some of the same benefit of protection for his money.

The most informative post stating contrary beliefs as to the effectiveness of this contract was removed, and seemed to be met with this either you like it or your don't attitude. I don't think that is the image that Bob wants here. The debate or discussion doesn't seem to be whether the routine is good or not.
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 27, 2010 12:39pm)
Some thoughts...

First, the quality of the routine...

The Blades is in a word a closer. I love this routine, everybody that I've spoken with that have been lucky enough to have seen Scott perform it live have loved it too. Most magicians that have seen it have asked Scott to sell it to them, teach it to them or give them permission to work on it. The routine is a killer "chunk".

One of the main issues a magic manufacturer has to address is if a product should have a video trailer or a YouTube video. For our Pro Line products I've decided the answer is NO! The exceptions are "No Smoking" by Puck and The Mindreading Goose by Steve Spill.

Most video trailers that I watch either fake the routine or have extremely favorable editing that really defeats the purpose of giving the viewer the facts to make a decision. If an artist or manufacturer does make a completely honest video that shows the entire routine from start to finish then puts it on the internet makes anyone can watch it over and over until they either figure it out, borrow the presentation or worse steal the entire effect.

The magic community has no idea how much incredible magic they are missing out on because of pirates. I know many top pros that will not put out their best material because in the end it just gets stolen.

Puck and I made the decision to put up a trailer for "No Smoking" because the gaffs are insanely difficult to make. The Mindreading Goose had been on television with Steve performing it so many times that his performance was already all over the internet.

But the value in many routines is so much more than just the gaffs. It's the way the artist weaves the methods into a perfect presentation plus all the years of experimenting to find just the right balance, the best music and all of the other little things that save anyone learning from a master years of trial and error.
The pros have done all of the work for you.

So with "The Blades" this release once again comes down to belief. Will you get a chance to see it, probably not unless you can track Scott down.

I know exactly how many performers are using our Pro Line products in their shows. I know who they are and the list is quite impressive. They all trusted our products because you can't see footage of me performing the Human Phone Number, you can't see Scott perform Velocity, The Final Answer or Slashed.

What I can tell you is that "The Blades" is the closer, it's the strongest routine we've released with Scott...period.

As far as our legal protections. In the end until we actually go to court and I hope we never have to, nobody can say for sure what the end result will be. Certainly magicians who think they are lawyers don't really know. I'm sure that even lawyers will have varying opinions,

But the bottom line is we are prepared to legally protect the products. The threat of expense of legal fees so far has been enough to keep several major magic rip-offs from moving forward with knock-offs of the Fitch-Kohler Holdout System. It is protected by the lease agreement and the California Trade Secret Agreement. The FK Holdout Secret is still secure.

Ultimate 3 Fly is another story. It was not protected in any way and the rest is history. I've learned my lesson.

Once again we're on the bleeding edge trying new strategies to protect the investment we have in producing a product and our client's investment in a show-stopper that will be in their show for years to come.

Will we be successful? Time will tell. I hope so.
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (May 28, 2010 1:08pm)
"Ultimate 3 Fly is another story. It was not protected in any way and the rest is history. I've learned my lesson."

I remember some contract to sign with this too. Am I mistaken?
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 28, 2010 1:21pm)
Our only products that have a license agreement are the Fitch Kohler Holdout System and The Blades.
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (May 28, 2010 2:58pm)
What was it that we signed then, that stated we could not perform this on video venues, etc.? There is also no video footage of U3F being performed anywhere, so I thought this was the same kind of deal..it was protected.
Message: Posted by: Kamal (May 28, 2010 9:17pm)
I know this is going to sound like a stupid question, but I need to ask it - do you need to get a volunteer up from the audience for *any* reason during this routine?
Message: Posted by: rockthemike (May 29, 2010 4:11am)
$800 and they give the props as an added bonus? What nice guys!
Message: Posted by: Steve Hook (May 29, 2010 4:22pm)
Quote:

On 2010-05-29 04:11, rockthemike wrote:
$800 and they give the props as an added bonus? What nice guys!



What an odd and inappropriate comment.

Did you read this thread before typing?

If not, then why type?

If you did, then I guess you didn't understand it.
Message: Posted by: takeachance (May 29, 2010 6:57pm)
Quote:

On 2010-05-29 16:22, Steve Hook wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-05-29 04:11, rockthemike wrote:
$800 and they give the props as an added bonus? What nice guys!



What an odd and inappropriate comment.

Did you read this thread before typing?

If not, then why type?

If you did, then I guess you didn't understand it.



I think it was meant very tougue in cheek. It is in the add copy page and an unusual comment to see when buying magic. I don't think it was meant mean spirited just a bit of fun
Message: Posted by: rockthemike (May 29, 2010 9:33pm)
Precisely thank you. If I'm gonna buy an $800 routine on razor blades I'd hope they'd include some razor blades for sure not as a bonus.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Lyle (May 30, 2010 10:31am)
I have a question for Bob...

In your contract agreement that the purchaser must sign, you say that the performer cannot video tape themselves and put it up on You Tube.

However...

In this digital age where anyone and everyone can video record whatever they wish from the convenience of their cell phone, what's to stop an audience member from video taping your performance and then throwing it up on Facebook or MySpace or some other social networking site?

If someone were to record you performing and that video makes it out to the masses, are you going to hold the performer liable?

It would seem to me that nobody can really police the entire net to insure that The Blades doesn't get video taped and put up there for public display.

I'm asking seriously here and am not trying to be a jerk about it. I would really like to know your thoughts...

Christopher
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (May 30, 2010 10:37am)
He already addressed that
Message: Posted by: Christopher Lyle (May 30, 2010 8:59pm)
I just saw Bob's answer to this question...I must have missed it the first time!
Message: Posted by: mmreed (May 31, 2010 10:28am)
Bob,

I read through most of this, and did not see anythign addressing the claims at

http://weeklymagicfailure.blogspot.com

where they say:

Legal issues: Have you read the fine print of Scott Alexander's blade routine?

To quote a friend of mine:

Are you aware that you have LIMITED PERFORMANCE RIGHTS to even do this routine if you buy it. Those who purchase this routine must sign a contract before the routine is actually shipped to you. The contract states that:

1. You CANNOT perform this routine on TV...EVER!
2. You CANNOT film yourself performing this routine and put it up for public display on yours or any website.
3. You CANNOT film yourself performing this routine and put it up on You Tube (kinda the same as #2).
4. You CANNOT perform this in a venue where they sell tickets for people to watch the show. (see below)

#4 basically means if you're performing in a theater where people are purchasing tickets to watch, then you're not allowed to perform this routine.

The ONLY place you can perform the routine is if you're hired to perform for an event (Corporate Function, Private Party, etc.)


Is this true that for $800, I cannot perform this in a ticketed venue and you basically limit me to doing it only for private bookings???


Im all for protecting creations, but this sounds severely limiting. I can almost understand the TV part, but saying I could not do this as part of a show I develop and produce at a local theater is somewhat absurd if this is true.

Please comment on this - I would like to know the truth.
Message: Posted by: Caliban (May 31, 2010 10:59am)
Quote:

On 2010-05-31 10:28, mmreed wrote:
4. You CANNOT perform this in a venue where they sell tickets for people to watch the show. (see below)

#4 basically means if you're performing in a theater where people are purchasing tickets to watch, then you're not allowed to perform this routine.



I don't think that's quite the case. As I understand it, that clause applies only to venues in Clark County, Nevada. So Scott has exclusive rights to perform the routine at ticketed shows in Las Vegas - but purchasers can perform it at venues that sell tickets anywhere else in the world.

I did read the agreement purely out of curiosity, though. I would never buy a routine for which I didn’t get unrestricted performance rights. My philosophy is very much that you either sell a routine or you keep it exclusive to yourself – but you can’t do both. I wouldn’t sell my car and still expect to have the exclusive right to drive it every Saturday night. And I want my act to be unique to me - I wouldn't want to use another performer's presentation, no matter how brilliant it was.
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 31, 2010 5:07pm)
If you've taken the time to read the product description on my web site you realize that it took years for me to pry The Blades out of Scott.

The performance restrictions are necessary or the routine would not have been released. Scott and I totally agreed that a routine of this caliber needed protection. We know we're on the bleeding edge trying to do our best to set a new standard. We also knew that this release would be met with both positive and negative reaction.

This release is not for everybody. I applaud magicians like Caliban who are willing to fight to build a unique show. Not everybody is capable of doing that. It's tough to create an act that is completely unique to yourself.

As far as the restrictions for Clark County, NV which contains Las Vegas, Scott is working on putting a show here. It's a very competitive market and you have to be unique. The restriction is for ticketed shows only. If you have a corporate show in Las Vegas, no problem the license allows for that.

In my magic lifetime I've seen great routines sold via license and done on major television. I've also seen routines stolen. Scott's been performing The Blades for years. The word was starting to spread about this routine. It was time for him to protect it.

This release of The Blades is his protection. We've established a solid foundation for the California Trade Secret Agreement Act by showing the secret of the routine to a group of professionals who have signed the Trade Secret Agreement. The Copyright PA protects the script.

I have received a lot of e-mails concerning The Blades. My favorite contained this sentence. "Don't hire a lawyer to produce a rabbit, and don't hire a magician to interpret a contract". Not my words...but I wish they were.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Jun 1, 2010 4:56am)
Years ago before my time, I am told that magic was sold in small shops. When you walked in there was a table and some chairs and a catalog. You picked out your trick from the catalog, the clerk or owner would go into another room and come out with a package wrapped in brown paper, tied up with string. You gave him your money and off you went. No demonstration, not seeing or touching the props, no discussion of the effect. That is how magic was sold, it was very secret.

Then as magic shop grew, displays of props and magic dealers began to demonstrate tricks over the counter if you were truly interested in purchasing the effect you may have read about in a magic catalog. Most dealers know how to perform a lot of tricks, but not everything they carry, as this can get into the hundreds, and today thousands.

I use to make mail order purchases from the Famous Magic Performer and Dealer in England, Ken Brooke Magic Place. His description were short and not fully describing the effect, but when you were finished reading the description, you were very interested in purchasing this miracle. So taking a chance, I began ordering from him. Every effect he said was good and entertaining, turned out to be exactly that. There were several tricks he sold without describing anything about the trick. He just said to send your money and you won't regret it, and you know what, he was telling the truth. He even guaranteed his magic, and I never returned a thing because of the effect it was to create for my audiences. His reputation grew and you knew if you purchased anything from him it was the best in quality and entertainment value. So I tried to get on his, "Just send me list" for years. Never happened, I wasn't famous enough.

Ken Brooke did sell a trick, with the understanding, a purchaser could not perform it on television. He also sold the Kap's Cork, with a pre-signed agreement of not exposing the details of the effect to anyone. Point is Performing agreements are not unheard of in the magic community.

Magic is nothing like buying a car or anything else. People just do not understand, this concept today. There are many other factors that surround the purchase of magic. Magic tricks are quite worthless unless it is presented to an audience for the Entertainment of onlookers. In the movie "The Prestige" there is a line by Christian Bale, the secret is everything and if it is revealed, you are nothing to them. How true!

Bob Kohler has decided to manufacture and release onto the market, only the very best magic tricks or effects under his name. The releases so far have been as promised, from the reviews and ravings I have read of his products. I think he has earned the respect and trust of the magic community, that what he says is what you will get. What he believes to be the best is the best.

So you can rant and rave and question all you want, but that will not get you exposure or the answers you are hoping for to sooth your need to know. If you want the effect, buy it, if you don't, don't buy it. As a magic dealer, Bob Kohler will sell his items as he wishes with the rules and agreements he has decided to place upon each item. This material is only for performers, not the person who is curious about every new trick on the market. If you are not willing to pay the price, then you do not deserve to have any information about the item. If you are not performing shows for an income, then this may not be a trick you should purchase.

Bob Kohler only sells high class magic effects, that delivers, for Professional Entertainers.
Message: Posted by: mmreed (Jun 1, 2010 11:27am)
No disrespect intended... merely curiosity...

with no mention of what this effect really is other than "the razor blades effect" that we all know... I assume you are paying for the patter script and ideology?

With that said, what sets this apart from the Tim Ellis routine - which is also very powerful, plays well, and is battle ground proven? and also sells for $30 on his DVD. or Spill's needle work.. ect...

Short of paying $800 to have someone tell me something different to say or do - what sets this apart? Is it a different method that is better in some way? With so many resources for blade work, there needs to be something other than "buying it for the scripting" If that's all it is, then people are paying to become clones rather than unique performers.

I'm sorry, but the days of sending an effect producer $$$ and saying "send me whatever" is over. Society has devoured that degree of openness and blind trust in the buyer.

Again, no disrespect intended - I would love to know more because I am a huge fan of razor work.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Jun 2, 2010 12:41am)
Well if those days of totally trusting an established person and business, I was not aware of this new policy in business. Then I guess you can sue the Kohler company for not complying with current business practices. But until then, I guess he can use this past business practice, and he does not have to answer to anyone for deciding to do business.

Did you also read you cannot sell the effect ever, so when you die, you have to bury it with you or make sure it gets destroyed. As Kohler will take legal action against your Estate for breaking the contract. This make this not only a serious purchase, but a serious decision in life as well.

What you will probably get is superior made equipment for free, and yes a DVD according to the ad. Knowing Scott Alexander from his Final Answer DVDs, he will give a very good explanation of the effect and alternate methods and ideas to adjust if you do not want to be a clone, but the effect will look like the classic version I would imagine, or it would not be the Razor Blade trick, would it. After reviewing the ad again, you are paying for only a license to perform Scott Alexander's effect as he performs it, so if you do not want to perform it as Scott teaches, I guess you would be wasting your money.

If you already have the Tim Ellis routine, then I guess you are not a potential customer. I did not read that you received superior equipment for free with the Tim Ellis DVD. I read many good things about Tim Ellis.

Did you also read the statement, Kohler Company has the right to not sell this effect to you. So if you persist, you may be rejected to even purchase this effect, even if you have the $800, or you may be rejected because you are not a professional magician in the Kohler Companies eyes.

I would be careful if I were you, he may be making a list of people posting demanding comments on this effect. He may be watching right now.
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (Jun 2, 2010 12:49am)
"Kohler Company has the right to not sell this effect to you. So if you persist, you may be rejected to even purchase this effect, even if you have the $800, or you may be rejected because you are not a professional magician in the Kohler Companies eyes.

"I would be careful if I were you, he may be making a list of people posting demanding comments on this effect. He may be watching right now."

LOL. How much of the $800 are you getting for the hard sell?
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 2, 2010 1:49am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-02 00:41, wmhegbli wrote:
Did you also read the statement, Kohler Company has the right to not sell this effect to you. So if you persist, you may be rejected to even purchase this effect, even if you have the $800, or you may be rejected because you are not a professional magician in the Kohler Companies eyes.

I would be careful if I were you, he may be making a list of people posting demanding comments on this effect. He may be watching right now.



Why are those who are asking important and serious questions getting the same ignorant responses?

Bob keeps bringing up the whole legal aspect of it, but there are questions and allegations that were made that never got answered.

Someone I know was banned for finding out what he did. His last post was deleted and he was banned from the Café.

Bob Kohler does have a right to sell something for whatever price he wants. And, he can sell it to whoever he wants. I don't dispute that. But it is curious that those who ask questions in regards to the legal side of things seem to get the cold shoulder.
Message: Posted by: rockthemike (Jun 2, 2010 5:54am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-01 11:27, mmreed wrote:
Short of paying $800 to have someone tell me something different to say or do - what sets this apart? Is it a different method that is better in some way? With so many resources for blade work, there needs to be something other than "buying it for the scripting" If that's all it is, then people are paying to become clones rather than unique performers.

I'm sorry, but the days of sending an effect producer $$$ and saying "send me whatever" is over. Society has devoured that degree of openness and blind trust in the buyer.

Again, no disrespect intended - I would love to know more because I am a huge fan of razor work.



They include the razors as an added bonus!!!!!
Message: Posted by: shaunproof (Jun 2, 2010 9:34am)
It was nice knowing you Gospel Dan.
Message: Posted by: mmreed (Jun 2, 2010 10:25am)
Wow,

Im shocked at the replies to what are questions any buyer would want to know.

I understand some may have blind faith when someone says "send me $800 and I will send you something really great"

Many of us however do not have that level of willingness to do so - especially at $800.

I think I ask a valid question - For $800, what do you get other than a patter script? Is it a different method? Is there some gimmick included?

The claim is that for $800 you get a wonderful presentation of the blades.

Without knowing what else is involved, to me it sounds like one pays $800 to get a script to memorize and use with a typical method. I cannot see serious pros wanting to do someone else's routine instead of making it their own, which leaves me to think for $800 you have wealthy amateurs being clones of each other.

Now let me make this clear - I SAY THIS BECAUSE I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU GET FOR THE $800!!! which is my point! There is no video of the performance - and they claim there will never be one.... that kinda tells me youre paying for a script.

Now if that is true, what makes this script worth $800 vs Tim Ellis routine for $35, or one of the Bizzaro routines or one of the Bryd and Coates, or the Dayton routine... all of which are battle tested and proven in corporate, private, and stage environments.

Again, I am not trying to be disrespectful, but when it comes to an $800 price tag, I think people need to know what they get other than a claim of "oh, its great, trust us.." along with such stringent legal controls.

If it is just a script, I think this item is being made out to be much more than it is.... paying $800 for a script for a method already known is not a value. Heck for $600 I can hire Joanie Spina to personally choreograph a blades routine for me via video consult.

So seriously - what sets THIS blade offering apart from the others already out there at a fraction of the cost?

Telling folks "just buy it and trust you will like it" just does not cut it.

I agree Bob has every right to sell something how he prefers. However, buyers have every right to give their purchases due diligence as well.

I know Bob puts out awesome products - and that is why I would really like to know more about this item and decide if it fits into my routine. I cannot do that if I do not know more about it...

If simply watching a presentation of the effect spills the beans, that says a good deal about what you get.

As you can see from many of the post replies, I am not alone in this thinking.
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (Jun 2, 2010 12:15pm)
"Someone I know was banned for finding out what he did. His last post was deleted and he was banned from the Café."

This is starting to look like a big mess.
Message: Posted by: noble1 (Jun 2, 2010 12:26pm)
I think the Confessions of a Needle Swallower presentation and method is easily worth $800. You can see it on video, it is battle tested and proven in corporate, private, and stage environments. And it's from Kohler at only $50.
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 2, 2010 5:36pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-02 10:25, mmreed. I think people need to know what they get other than a claim of "oh, its great, trust us.." along with such stringent legal controls.



That would be true IF there were some requirement that you have to buy this effect.

You don't.

No one does.

It always amazes me that people feel they have a right to complain has to how a creator/artist/content provider chooses to control the release and use of THEIR material.

I also always find it disturbing that the people who scream the loudest when protections are put in place (even when that protection is just a price tag) are often the ones least likely to ever purchase said effect.

Why does anyone in the community fault someone for trying to control and protect their work?

Are we all a bunch of pirates whose bloodthirst is quenched only in the uncompensated work of others?

I am confident that if you are SERIOUS about purchasing this routine and have specific questions about the legal protections and how that would impact your specific use of the routine, Bob will answer your question via email.

All of this hypothetical speculation only serves to help pirates find loopholes. How is that good for anyone - other than pirates? I would think we would be on the same team here - protecting someone's work while allowing others to benefit from their creative content.

Now some people will whine that a high price tag is poor sportsmanship.

That's really what most of this boils down to. We saw it with the hold out. We saw it with Kerry's light routine. We saw it with Paul's HCE.

Many magicians feel they deserve access to everything. These are the same magicians whose incompentant performances continue to relegate magic to the bottom of the entertainment food chain.

Isn't it about time that the community of magicians decided we should start fostering an environment where work can be shared without dilution? Sure, not everyone will be able to do everything - but when has that - when CAN that ever be true?

Why are people afraid that someone wants to protect their ideas?

Why are people upset that someone wants a reasonable price for their product - a price THEY feel is reasonable?

Those that cry the loudest should remember that right now - they have nothing. At the end of the day - they will still have nothing. What Bob and Scott charge won't affect their lives at all. So why whine?

Now, if someone wants to pay for the rights to do that routine, they know what it will cost and what they are expected to do and not do. In buying anything there is a risk, and it is THEIR choice to take it or not.

No one is required to buy this routine.

The only people this plan can hurt are the pirates.

So why are so many people complaining?
Message: Posted by: noble1 (Jun 2, 2010 6:26pm)
Well said truthteller. Impossible to refute anything you've said.
Message: Posted by: takeachance (Jun 2, 2010 7:52pm)
I agree with most of what you said but believe its a bit arrogant as well. This was raised in a discussion forum, that's what its for, to ask questions. If anything is out of line the mods will delete it eventually. If it was brought up from an add or banner fair enough, but no, it was brought up for discussion. I don't think anyone should be singled out for a moral bashing for asking questions here, I thought that was what the Café was about. I applaud the way this is being marketed as I've already stated, but it is a marketed item. If you don't want it discussed on a forum, don't release it
Message: Posted by: mmreed (Jun 2, 2010 8:10pm)
My questions are not really about the protection.. but rather WHAT IS IT? WHAT DO YOU GET for $800. Although the protection and legalities seem a bit overboard. All this regulation for something no one knows what is really in it...

All we know is that it is a razor blade routine.

No clue if it is a new method

No clue if it is just the patter you get

nothing other than a statement of "buy it, you'll like it"

I think someone looking for a blades routine needs to SEE it performed... does it fit my style, ect...

No video, no description, no idea - how can I know that for $800 that this is MY type of blades routine vs something like Ellis or Dayton?

This is my point - I have no real issue with the legal protection they choose to sell it under... but in order to buy it, I kinda need to know a little more about it.

Here is a bag. In it is something really great. It costs $250. I swear you will love it.

Who wants to send me $250 for the first bag?

Now... who wants to know whats IN the bag first to see if its something you can even use?

I mean come on folks... seriously...

I love blade work and own most of the materials out there on it... Id love to consider this... HOWEVER... if it is just $800 worth of patter overtop an old method... I don't need that, or want that...

So say I spend the $800 thinking I am getting something new... a new method... and it turns out its just a script for a method I already know... do I get a refund? Heck no... so wouldnt it be wise to want to know whats instore for my $800?

My question is simple...

what do I get for $800? Is it just a patter script, or is this a new method of blade work? If its just an old method with new patter - how does it differ in delivery from Ellis routine that is very strong and entertaining?

And here is one last thought... if it is JUST patter... why would I want to spend $800 on it vs working with someone like Joanie Spina to make something more original on my own?

Tell me the selling points of this item other than "Bob Kohler makes great stuff, so just buy it and trust you will like it"

My bag for $250 is still available if anyone wants one...
Message: Posted by: mmreed (Jun 2, 2010 8:14pm)
Also - if showing a performance of this endangers it so much... what happens when a magician performs this for other magicians????

Again I stress, I am not trying to be disrespectful - I just want to know what I would get for my $800 if I choose to buy this!

Times are tough folks - buyers have the right to scrutinize and understand what they get for their hard earned dollars.

Caveat emptor
Message: Posted by: mmreed (Jun 2, 2010 8:27pm)
I just dug a little deeper down on Bobs site and see that he has a FAQ saying what is included:
Quote:

So What Do I Get With The Blades?
What you get are six minutes of action packed, hilarious entertainment that will rivet your audiences attention and get you standing ovations. What you are purchasing is the license to perform "The Blades". When you purchase the license we'll send you a kit as a bonus. The kit contains the special gaff, the necessary razor blades, the threads and a few other widgets that I won't describe. The parts and pieces are only a small part though of what your investment gets you. The real value is knowledge. You're getting all of Scott's creativity, his years of experience performing "The Blades" in front of critical, demanding audiences and all of the refinements that make "The Blades" the show stopper that will get you standing ovations night after night.

The knowledge is imparted to you on a professionally produced training DVD. This DVD is the property of Bob Kohler Magic and remains our property at all times. It is conditionally provided, not sold to clients who purchase the license. This is necessary to keep "The Blades" DVD from being shown in any way to someone who is not a licensee whether by renting it, lending it, showing it at a magic club meeting or selling it.



So it appears you are buying the scripting of a method. It is uncertain if this someone else's method, a tweaked version of one, or a new method - but the statement leads to the purchase being more of that you are licensing the rights to use the patter and scripting they have.
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Jun 2, 2010 10:36pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-02 20:14, mmreed wrote:
Also - if showing a performance of this endangers it so much... what happens when a magician performs this for other magicians????


why the hell would you ever want to perform this for other magicians????

take a look at all the "BK line;" everything about the same, no video, no reveal of routine, etc. (just no agreement and 1/4 the price in some cases)

you're getting the same thing as Slashed, TFA, Velocity, Shattered, Confessions of Needle swallower, Human Phone # et.al. except it will cost $800 If you didn't think much of Scott's other releases/scripts, then I'm guessing you wont like this one either.

s
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (Jun 2, 2010 10:49pm)
"Are we all a bunch of pirates whose bloodthirst is quenched only in the uncompensated work of others?"


I think you missed the legitimate concerns of potential customers. This is way out there.
Message: Posted by: rockthemike (Jun 3, 2010 3:18am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-02 17:36, truthteller wrote:

I am confident that if you are SERIOUS about purchasing this routine and have specific questions about the legal protections and how that would impact your specific use of the routine, Bob will answer your question via email.

Now, if someone wants to pay for the rights to do that routine, they know what it will cost and what they are expected to do and not do. In buying anything there is a risk, and it is THEIR choice to take it or not.

So why are so many people complaining?



Ok... coool BUT I STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT ROUTINE YOU'RE REFERRING TO AND NEITHER DO YOU so get off your high horse and come down to earth.


Everyone I have a car for sale. It's a great car. It's made by Ford and there is a law against theft of the vehicle. $799. Send MO no Paypal. It's a great car I promise you'll love it. PM me.
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Jun 3, 2010 4:21am)
Quote:

On Jun 3, 2010 3:18am, rockthemike wrote:

Everyone I have a car for sale. It's a great car. It's made by Ford and there is a law against theft of the vehicle. $799. Send MO no Paypal. It's a great car I promise you'll love it. PM me.



You forgot the contract the buyer must sign before taking delivery of this special Ford:

1. You CANNOT drive the Ford on TV...EVER!
2. You CANNOT film yourself driving the Ford and put it up for public display on yours or any website!
3. You CANNOT film yourself driving the Ford and put it up on You Tube!
4. You CANNOT drive the Ford in a venue where they sell tickets for people to watch you drive the Ford, especially a venue like Las Vegas, where a certain magician, herein specified, might be driving his Ford for a paying audience!


[LOL...sorry, I'm not taking sides on this, but I couldn't help it. :lol:]
Message: Posted by: Caliban (Jun 3, 2010 6:07am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-02 20:14, mmreed wrote:
Also - if showing a performance of this endangers it so much... what happens when a magician performs this for other magicians????



The simple answer to that one is - you don't. Performing it at magic conventions and suchlike is one of the things prohibited by the agreement.
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 3, 2010 1:43pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-02 22:49, polygonsmagic wrote:
"Are we all a bunch of pirates whose bloodthirst is quenched only in the uncompensated work of others?"


I think you missed the legitimate concerns of potential customers. This is way out there.



Nope. I know that potential customers with legitimate concerns have contacted Bob with said legitimate concerns and have chosen to buy the item.

Many of the people who cry loudest in these situations are only really whining about the price. They believe everything should be available to everyone for near nothing.

You are not buying this routine from the Magic Café, you are buying it from Bob. If you have a real question and if you are sincerely interested in the routine - email him.

Otherwise, you are just p-ing in the wind.

But I do think there is a larger issue here - someone is trying to implement measures that can protect a creator's rights, preserve the value of their creative work while allowing them to share it with others.

It would seem this should be a cause all conscientious magicians should be supportive of.

But clearly, this has riled some beyond what I would expect to be reasonable.

So, it makes me wonder why.

And the only answer that I think that seems to fit is that many magicians do NOT want creators to be able to protect their work. They don't want a system where they can be held accountable when they steal someone elses idea.

Again, no one is forcing anyone to buy this thing, so why are people (who are never going to plunk down 800 smakers) so upset?

Brad
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 3, 2010 1:58pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-03 03:18, rockthemike wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-06-02 17:36, truthteller wrote:

I am confident that if you are SERIOUS about purchasing this routine and have specific questions about the legal protections and how that would impact your specific use of the routine, Bob will answer your question via email.

Now, if someone wants to pay for the rights to do that routine, they know what it will cost and what they are expected to do and not do. In buying anything there is a risk, and it is THEIR choice to take it or not.

So why are so many people complaining?



Ok... coool BUT I STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT ROUTINE YOU'RE REFERRING TO AND NEITHER DO YOU so get off your high horse and come down to earth.


Everyone I have a car for sale. It's a great car. It's made by Ford and there is a law against theft of the vehicle. $799. Send MO no Paypal. It's a great car I promise you'll love it. PM me.



First, assuming that everyone knows, or should know, the same thing is a dangerous place from which to begin any argument, so I shall choose to remain atop my trusted stead.

Steed?

Where's the Shrek screenplay when I need it?

Guess what, Mike. I don't want to buy your car. And that's ok. I don't have to. You're not making me, and I appreciate that.

Ultimately, it's your choice how you want to advertise your vehicle and your choice what terms you want to include.

No one can make YOU change the ad. No one can force you to sell on their terms.

So, why are you trying to make Bob cowtow to YOUR desires?

You can sell your car however you like, he can sell his routine however he wants. Ultimately the person who it will affect is him - he might not get your sale - and you know what? I'm more than sure he's ok with that.

When did everyone in magic become those whiney seagulls from Finding Nemo - the one's who bark "mine, mine, mine" whenever they see something shiny?

Mike, it's not yours. Not now and unless you want to take the risk - not ever.

Kohler's ok with that.

Why can't you be too?

Sure, this system may discourage some curiosity seekers from buying this on a lark. So, the trick may only end up selling a handful of items.

Seems to me, that for a content provider who wants to keep the material exclusive, this was a really smart way to go about it.

But just in case you missed the point, I'll repeat it (typing slowly); it's not your product. You don't get to choose how much it costs, what the ads say, or how its sold.

When you have your own product, you can do whatever you want.

Until then, buy it or don't.

That's really all the say you get to have in the matter.

Excuse me as a gallop off into the sunset.
Message: Posted by: Michael Dustman (Jun 3, 2010 3:31pm)
I agree with Brad...I have never figured out why in the field of magic, more people think they have the right to criticize how a creator or producer decides to market the product. We spend more time complaining about how it is marketed, rather than showing appreciation that the creator was willing to share it in the first place.

With that being said, all this talk by Mark about what you get for $800 and you must only be getting the scripting....you are so worked up on that fact you aren't even reading the paragraph you cut and pasted. It specifically says you are getting a custom made gaff, along with all other supplies, in addition to the script, routining and rights. Heck...a lot of times, just the performance rights alone can cost over a grand.

You are getting a custom made gaff. And from what I understand, it has been about 2 to 3 years in the design process. In fact, when I last inquired with Bob at MAGIC Live last year about this project, I thought it was still another year away. So, I am thrilled that it is finally released.

I will say this much...there was a lot of complaining as well about what you got for what you paid for the Final Answer. Was the "gaff" really worth the asking price. I say yes and no. Yes, because it was an brilliant step forward and the best utility device that I think has come around since the thumb tip. No, because I truly don't think the majority of the price was in the gaff, it was in the 2 disk treatsie on everything you would want to know about the Bill in Lemon. I would have paid the price for the DVD's alone. I have researched and purchased every single bill to lemon routine that has come around, to find bits and pieces that made each one great so I could develop my whole routine. Yes....I have spent a couple thousand dollars researching just one routine. I stopped after the Final Answer came out...I found the missing piece I needed. (And I don't even do Scott's routine.) So...in knowing Bob Kohler Productions past history, I have to imagine that this is the same scenario. You are getting a very thorough treatsie on everything you would need to know on the Razor Blades routine. On top of that, you are getting custom handcrafted gimmicks which will never come into question. Worth the asking price if you ask me...................
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 3, 2010 4:59pm)
I think people have a right to share their opinions. I also think people have a right to ask questions, no matter how much those questions upset some of Bob's and Steve's friends and loyals.

The rebuttals from some seem to only raise more questions.

This IS a public forum, is it not? It was posted in the "Latest and Greatest?" was it not?

If some potential customers questions seem to upset others, they too have the same rights as what they keep reminding others have.

I totally agree that Bob, Steve, and anyone else has a right to sell anything they want, with whatever conditions they put on it. I am a FULL supporter of magician's and creator's protecting their material. Let me repeat that. "I fully support magician's and creator's who want to protect their material."

If people are not allowed to ask questions or voice their concerns, or if those who do are considered not real potential customers, or supporters of piracy, then this thread should be removed, and no further discussions should be allowed to take place about it on the Café. It's that simple, and that easy.

I believe some very good questions have been raised and ignored. Why?

Any serious professional performer would know where to find the product if they want to buy it without reading opinions, or discussions on it, so why the need to come onto the Café, and start a thread on it, only to turn around and criticize anyone who asks the kind of questions any real potential customer would ask when buying a product they know very little about.

Let's try and be fair to everyone here.
Message: Posted by: noble1 (Jun 3, 2010 5:39pm)
Dan I think you are a bit confused, The Blades is offered by Bob and Scott. There is no Steve involved.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 3, 2010 5:53pm)
Yes, you are right. Thank-you. :)

I was recently on Steve Spill's, "Mind Reading Goose" thread and got Steve and Scott confused.
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 3, 2010 6:05pm)
Dan,

No one is suggesting that the product cannot be discussed - to the extent the creator wishes the information to be publicly disseminated.

What my concern is that people seem so upset that a creator is trying to protect their work and charge a fair price for it. It seems odd to me that people are not supporting this course of action.

Likewise, if we choose to be honest with ourselves and not play the idealism card, one knows that many people are just complaining because they feel left out because of the hefty price tag. We saw it with the holdout, with Kerry's light routine, and with Paul's HCE.

People demand to know more and more about the item, as if somehow the creator/seller is causing them personal harm and damage for not cowtowing to their every request. We have all seen dozens of threads where "potential customers" pick apart an idea to the point that no one needs to buy it. The secret has been uncovered and laid bare for all with eyes to see.

Let's be honest, most people on these forums never perform anything. They have no desire to do this routine, let alone pay for it at any price beyond a few bucks to satisfy their curiosity.

It's all about getting something for nothing.

Sure, there are some serious folks here. Those are the ones who will email Bob and get the information they need.

So yes, you can ask whatever questions you want. But if Bob, or anyone, decides that they do not want to share that information, or answer that question in an open forum - then that should be respected.

I'm not seeing a lot of respect. I'm seeing mockery, and defensiveness, and anger.

I'm seeing people who are making baseless claims - claims stemming from the lack of information they are admitting to not having!

Ultimately, Bob OR ANY CONTENT PROVIDER should be allowed to determine their parameters for the release and sale of material and we should respect that.

As I said, buy it or don't. In this case - that's the only say you really have in the matter.
Message: Posted by: mmreed (Jun 3, 2010 6:52pm)
Truthteller -

without seeing the performance of this item.... and it being stated as being a script of "the funniest 6 minutes with blades you will ever find"

How can one know if it fits their performing persona?

That is my point - without knowing more about it.... how can ANYONE make a choice if it is a fit?

Is it light humor... is it dark humor... is it slapstick... is it witty self deprecating... is it high brow humor... is it suitable for all ages or is it adult oriented.... is it more stage or parlor... ect..ect...

Without seeing a performance of what you get... or a more detailed description, how can ANYONE know if this item is for them?

Are you suggesting to buy it not knowing that?

What happens with those folks that buy it and it turns out to be a total conflict with the performance character they have?

Even though you get a gimmick - you are buying the ROUTINE AND PRESENTATION. But without knowing what that really is.

that's my entire point.
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 3, 2010 6:57pm)
With any purchase you make in magic - there is a risk. Remember the days before online demos?

We all survived.

Sure, sometimes you got burned. Sometimes you were more than pleasantly surprised. But as a rule, you developed a relationship with the dealers who did you right, and they gave you as much help as they felt they could.

Bob's decision will cause him to lose sales.

Clearly, he's ok with that.

If you are not willing to take that risk - then he will lose YOUR sale.

Clearly, he's ok with that.

Why can't you be?
Message: Posted by: Michael Dustman (Jun 3, 2010 7:23pm)
Dan,

One of the points I was trying to make was NOT that people don't have the right to their opinion or to ask a question. My point was to stop asking the same question over and over that had already been answered. I am too tired to go back and check how many posts in this thread asked "What do you get for $800.....do you get just a script or gimmick....is there a gimmick.....is it just the patter" The ad copy clearly states you get a gimmick AND ALL PROPS needed. This wasn't a Do It Yourself with stuff you find laying around the house DVD.

I know it is storming in Ohio today, but maybe the color of the sky in my world is clearly different today.
Message: Posted by: Scott Alexander (Jun 3, 2010 8:19pm)
Hello everyone...

I would LOVE to put up the routine online for everyone to see. The problem is, someone would be doing all the "patter" and "bits o' business" tomorrow, using a different method. That wouldn't serve my customers, or myself very well. I think we can all agree with that.

But here's the thing...
If it's not your style, and you throw the whole routine out the window, you are still left with the best, most direct, most natural, cleanest, and easiest to set-up method and handling available.IMHO.

Are you going to get 800 cybergenic nano-bots who swarm your mouth and tie the razors on the string for you...no...that costs $800,000.00.

So whadda ya get for $800.00 bucks?

1. A really good routine...
2. A really clean method...
3. A really easy preperation & setup...
4. A really deceptive trick...

When I throw down a chunk of dough on a piece of magic, these are things I hope to find. The Blades delivers on all 4. There are a lot of other great methods out there. Some mentioned on this thread. Nothing against any of them. I've seen em' all. I just like mine better, of course.

-Scott
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 3, 2010 9:47pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-03 18:57, truthteller wrote:
With any purchase you make in magic - there is a risk. Remember the days before online demos?

We all survived.

Sure, sometimes you got burned. Sometimes you were more than pleasantly surprised. But as a rule, you developed a relationship with the dealers who did you right, and they gave you as much help as they felt they could.

Bob's decision will cause him to lose sales.

Clearly, he's ok with that.

If you are not willing to take that risk - then he will lose YOUR sale.

Clearly, he's ok with that.

Why can't you be?



Why do you always have to make sense? :)

If someone buys something and finds out it's not their cup of tea, they can turn around and sell it to another sucker...I mean buyer. :) You can't re-sell Blades for obvious reasons.

I also understand why a demo can't be shown, and why Blades can't me more descriptive than it is. But, do we really need all the legal claims that are being said about it advertised along with it to give it the illusion that it's protected by law?

Shouldn't the signed agreement, and the high price be enough? I have to admit that reading over the agreement my conclusion was that either a non-lawyer person wrote it up, or an incompetent one did.(lol) It tried to sound like it was professionally done, but that's the key. It tried to sound like it.

Those who purchase this will surely keep the agreement, as it would fully benefit them to do so.

Also, those who know Scott's work will know if the chance is worth taking.

I think someone posted earlier about performing it for other magician's, but I thought the question was about when performing the routine in front of a live audience that just so happens to have a magician in the crowd.

We know how Scott's routine is protected, but how is the consumer protected? Is Bob willing to take someone to court and spend thousands of dollars on legal fee's?

However, you are right again truthteller. I suppose those would be questions that one could email Bob about. At least those serious about wanting to purchase it.

Thanks for chiming in.
Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (Jun 3, 2010 11:23pm)
Gospel Dan said; "I have to admit that reading over the agreement my conclusion was that either a non-lawyer person wrote it up, or an incompetent one did.(lol) It tried to sound like it was professionally done, but that's the key. It tried to sound like it"

I gather that is your official interpretation as a seasoned attorney? I doubt it, the seasoned attorney part that is.

Will this whole thing stand up in court? Who knows, this type of thing has yet to be tested in the magic world. I for one truly hope that somebody makes Bob pull out the heavy artillery as it could prove beneficial for all us creators. :nod:

truthteller said; "truthteller wrote:
With any purchase you make in magic - there is a risk. Remember the days before online demos?

We all survived.

Sure, sometimes you got burned. Sometimes you were more than pleasantly surprised. But as a rule, you developed a relationship with the dealers who did you right, and they gave you as much help as they felt they could.

Bob's decision will cause him to lose sales.

Clearly, he's ok with that.

If you are not willing to take that risk - then he will lose YOUR sale.

Clearly, he's ok with that.

Why can't you be?
"

I am forced to agree with Brad on this one - what is your problem? It's begining to appear that you have other agendas that have nothing whatsoever to do with the trick in question. If that be the case I would suggest you take this up with Mr. Kohler privately. The present arguement has ran its course and is begining to sound like a broken record.

Botton Line: If you don't buy this you won't be doing it - period.
Message: Posted by: ixnay66 (Jun 3, 2010 11:29pm)
So is this just the old razor blade trick that's been around forever? To a layperson, won't the "exclusive $800 you signed a contract" version look the same as the old version that's been around since before we were all born?
Message: Posted by: keithmagic (Jun 3, 2010 11:40pm)
Well, isn't this a fun thread...?

Putting aside the whole legal-ease issue, let's talk about Scott and the actual effect... I know a bit about it - I've probably seen Scott do his routine live more than anyone aside from his wife and himself, and am lucky enough to call the guy a good friend and even teacher.

Bottom line - he probably knows more about this effect than anyone else on the planet - and that's no joke. He's used it as a headliner at Caesars Magical Empire THOUSANDS of times on stage and in their close-up gallery. I've seen him totally rock corporate events with it. I've seen him kill in his variety show downtown in Vegas with it. "Blades" is a staple in his act, and his thinking, dedication, research, and development of it (as well as the rest of his releases) are a few of the many reasons he's been on top of his game for so long. When Scott tackles a classic effect like the Razorblades, then spends a couple of decades honing it in front of hundreds of thousands of people - it's probably a good idea to listen to what he has to say in regards to the effect.

The handling is so clean and the effect so direct, it would almost be pointless shooting it as a demo because people (probably the same people !@#$%ing about the "legal" issues) would be accusing him of pulling a C.A. Single blades go into an empty mouth with no funny moves... thread goes in... blades come out threaded - again with no funny moves and totally clean handling. No funny stands, awkward displays, etc... If you could REALLY do this - THIS is what it would look like. It's really about all that can be said about the effect.

Scott's PRESENTATION (which I really think is the major part of the agreement as I understand it) is pretty much the pinnacle in razorblade effects. Hard to see what more you could possibly want. Totally worth $795 if you're going to do it. Try and hire Spina, Fitch, or a professional director and writer to create such a solid performance piece for the money. Good luck.

Though Bob and Scott are really pushing the envelope as far as the magic industry goes in regards to protecting their product - bottom line - it's their product. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

I have a feeling since Scott's presentation is so solid and tested; a lot of pros are going to want to put this into their act. People are going to talk about this piece - guaranteed. If you drop the $795 on Blades it will be a bit of a comfort to know that every Tom, Dick, and Harry won't be out there lousing up a great performance piece.

I've seen Scott performing and honing this for the past 13 or 14 years with my own eyes - and I could be wrong but I think he was developing this for years before that. What other products out there have received this much care, attention, and flight time in front of an audience before being released to a select few performers? Not many I can think of.
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 4, 2010 12:28am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-03 23:29, ixnay66 wrote:
So is this just the old razor blade trick that's been around forever? To a layperson, won't the "exclusive $800 you signed a contract" version look the same as the old version that's been around since before we were all born?



If that helps you get through the night, then yes - that's exactly it.

Move along.

There is nothing for you to see here.

(See how much easier that is?)
Message: Posted by: rockthemike (Jun 4, 2010 1:42am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-03 13:58, truthteller wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-06-03 03:18, rockthemike wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-06-02 17:36, truthteller wrote:

I am confident that if you are SERIOUS about purchasing this routine and have specific questions about the legal protections and how that would impact your specific use of the routine, Bob will answer your question via email.

Now, if someone wants to pay for the rights to do that routine, they know what it will cost and what they are expected to do and not do. In buying anything there is a risk, and it is THEIR choice to take it or not.

So why are so many people complaining?



Ok... coool BUT I STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT ROUTINE YOU'RE REFERRING TO AND NEITHER DO YOU so get off your high horse and come down to earth.


Everyone I have a car for sale. It's a great car. It's made by Ford and there is a law against theft of the vehicle. $799. Send MO no Paypal. It's a great car I promise you'll love it. PM me.



First, assuming that everyone knows, or should know, the same thing is a dangerous place from which to begin any argument, so I shall choose to remain atop my trusted stead.

Steed?

Where's the Shrek screenplay when I need it?

Guess what, Mike. I don't want to buy your car. And that's ok. I don't have to. You're not making me, and I appreciate that.

Ultimately, it's your choice how you want to advertise your vehicle and your choice what terms you want to include.

No one can make YOU change the ad. No one can force you to sell on their terms.

So, why are you trying to make Bob cowtow to YOUR desires?

You can sell your car however you like, he can sell his routine however he wants. Ultimately the person who it will affect is him - he might not get your sale - and you know what? I'm more than sure he's ok with that.

When did everyone in magic become those whiney seagulls from Finding Nemo - the one's who bark "mine, mine, mine" whenever they see something shiny?

Mike, it's not yours. Not now and unless you want to take the risk - not ever.

Kohler's ok with that.

Why can't you be too?

Sure, this system may discourage some curiosity seekers from buying this on a lark. So, the trick may only end up selling a handful of items.

Seems to me, that for a content provider who wants to keep the material exclusive, this was a really smart way to go about it.

But just in case you missed the point, I'll repeat it (typing slowly); it's not your product. You don't get to choose how much it costs, what the ads say, or how its sold.

When you have your own product, you can do whatever you want.

Until then, buy it or don't.

That's really all the say you get to have in the matter.

Excuse me as a gallop off into the sunset.



You're right.
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Jun 4, 2010 1:49am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-04 00:28, truthteller wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-06-03 23:29, ixnay66 wrote:
So is this just the old razor blade trick that's been around forever? To a layperson, won't the "exclusive $800 you signed a contract" version look the same as the old version that's been around since before we were all born?



If that helps you get through the night, then yes - that's exactly it.

Move along.

There is nothing for you to see here.

(See how much easier that is?)



Truthteller,

You are my muse. I am constantly gratified by your ostentatiously lofty, high-flown responses. Wow, material like: "If that helps you get through the night, then yes - that's exactly it", or, "There is nothing for you to see here". But my personal favorite has to be starting off your commentary with reference to the movie "Shrek" then ending with: "Excuse me as a (I) gallop off into the sunset". That stuff is priceless.

Just when I think the discussion is getting boring and trite, you come through with another super "zinger" to keep everything interesting. Thank you.
Message: Posted by: lebowski (Jun 4, 2010 1:53am)
Not only interesting, what Truthteller says seems to ring true.
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Jun 4, 2010 1:54am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-04 01:53, lebowski wrote:
Not only interesting, what Truthteller says seems to ring true.



Duh, that's why he's called "Truthteller"
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jun 4, 2010 2:15am)
What continues to amaze me is the folks getting all twisted up about an effect they want to talk endlessly about, but don't want to buy, and won't ever buy.

It would be different if it was positive conversation that moved the thread forward, but for some specific posters its consistently negative, and largely (if not completely) repetitious.

There's a huge difference between asking questions/stating opinions, and endlessly telling an effects creator you don't like how they market their effect.........a HUGE difference.

Personally, I wouldn't sign a contract with anybody to purchase a marketed effect........but in this case, I don't perform a razor blade effect, so I offer my opinion on the ongoing thread, and leave it at this one post.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jun 4, 2010 9:55am)
I saw Toy R Us has a $4.95 version of the Hummer's Whirling Card for ages 6+. It's amazing how well this age group handles IT.

Kudos to Bob Kohler for making a difference in how magic is marketed and the secrets protected!

Chris
Message: Posted by: Christopher Lyle (Jun 4, 2010 12:26pm)
I'm certain that part of the agreement one must sign is you cannot review the product other than to say "I LIKE IT" or "I HATE IT" and that's about it.
Message: Posted by: corpmagi (Jun 4, 2010 3:14pm)
You are getting a polished, professional routine that is still in active use in a professionals act; The props, music, staging, performance tips gleaned from years of professional performance and the performance rights as specified in the contract.

What more do you need or want? you already know the effect and how it ends. It's the ride leading up to it that you're paying for.

if you're a working professional and are looking for a new performance piece, how much is it worth to you to save years of trial and error?
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (Jun 4, 2010 4:55pm)
"how much is it worth to you to save years of trial and error?"

It would seem that the years of trial and error, and improving their own routines are what motivate and inspire true professional performers. A professional performer is usually someone who can create and perform original material on their own, or with minor inspiration from existing material. In other words, they make an effect their own by adding their own personal touches, just as Scott has done here.

If you pay $800 for someone else's entire routine, just so you don't have to do any trial and error on your own, what kind of professional performer are you, and how much fun is that going to be? It's sort of an oxymoron.
Message: Posted by: ixnay66 (Jun 4, 2010 5:08pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-04 00:28, truthteller wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-06-03 23:29, ixnay66 wrote:
So is this just the old razor blade trick that's been around forever? To a layperson, won't the "exclusive $800 you signed a contract" version look the same as the old version that's been around since before we were all born?



If that helps you get through the night, then yes - that's exactly it.

Move along.

There is nothing for you to see here.

(See how much easier that is?)



Actually I'm not having a hard time getting through the night. I just didn't know if this was the old trick where razor blades go in a mouth and come out threaded and at $800 I thought it might be a new effect. I'm looking forward to seeing what the next routine will be though. Ambitious Card? Cups and Balls? Linking Rings maybe?

You're right. There IS nothing to see here. I'll move along. (That WAS easy. Thanks!)
Message: Posted by: puckmagic (Jun 4, 2010 5:24pm)
I have heard a lot of comments on performing an established routine from another performer. Well I have to ask if any of you have ever heard of David Copperfield, Doug Henning, David Blaine, Cris Angel, etc. They as well as most of our magical forefathers perform effects and routines that they have purchased from other professional magicians. This does not make them less creative in any way. It's how you interpret the purchased material and apply it to your performance.

Well known comics have been buying and selling jokes for years. This is an accepted part of professional entertainment. There are some that teach and some that do. There are routines DC has purchased that he performs better than the creator. He actually does some of them so well that he is more know for it than the originator. I don't see the problem folks .... Just food for thought.

Puck
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (Jun 4, 2010 5:35pm)
"There are routines DC has purchased that he performs better than the creator. He actually does some of them so well that he is more know for it than the originator."

Ever see Steve Fearson's original version of the cut in half guy? A long while back, Bill Goldman was showing video of Steve doing this on Japanese television at his lectures. There is NO comparison to DC's performance, it is SO much better in my opinion.

Also, I'm sure that after DC buys an effect from a creator, the original creator is no longer allowed to perform it. That would stifle any comparisons. In this example with Fearson, I'm doubting there are many places you could look to find his performance, and I'm doubting that anyone other than magicians would know who originated the effect.
Message: Posted by: corpmagi (Jun 4, 2010 8:52pm)
Thanks Puck. Couldn't have said it better. Can't seem to recall how many original songs Sinatra wrote...

Quote:

On 2010-06-04 17:24, puckmagic wrote:
I have heard a lot of comments on performing an established routine from another performer. Well I have to ask if any of you have ever heard of David Copperfield, Doug Henning, David Blaine, Cris Angel, etc. They as well as most of our magical forefathers perform effects and routines that they have purchased from other professional magicians. This does not make them less creative in any way. It's how you interpret the purchased material and apply it to your performance.

Well known comics have been buying and selling jokes for years. This is an accepted part of professional entertainment. There are some that teach and some that do. There are routines DC has purchased that he performs better than the creator. He actually does some of them so well that he is more know for it than the originator. I don't see the problem folks .... Just food for thought.

Puck

Message: Posted by: keithmagic (Jun 4, 2010 9:22pm)
So by Polygons logic movie and Broadway stars must really suck. They just work off of a script, directing, notes, etc... Anyone can do that. How boring. The REAL stars would be chopping up Shakespeare and adding their own endings and plot twists simply to show off their theatrical genius.

Keep thinking that way, guys. Magic has only been going down the gutter in the eyes of the public (and entertainment industry as a whole) post-Devant. Why slow down the regression?

Keith
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 4, 2010 9:44pm)
So, let me get this straight. It's okay to copy another performers script and routine to a tee? When did this stop being frowned upon?

I think one of the reasons why magic is going down into the gutters in the publics eyes is because when they've seen one magician they think they've seen them all. We already have enough magicians copying other magicians scripts and routines, and trying to perform them just like the originator.

When I started in performing I was encouraged to take a trick and routine and modify it so that it fits my character and performance style, and to even eventually come up with my own patter for it. I was encouraged to be original and not a copy cat of another performer.

With that said, I will admit that when I'm learning a new trick or routine, I do it like the originator, but once I get the feel and hang of it, I start to add my own style to it.

That doesn't mean that I think it's wrong for someone to sell their script and routine to other magicians with permission to copy it just as it is. I think that's very generous to do. And I do understand that anyone who purchases Blades are free to alter it in any way if they should choose to do so.

However, I think it's going down the wrong road when we start saying it's okay to copy other performers scripts and routines. Even if the originator is generous enough to sell their script and routine with permission to copy it as it is, doesn't change the fact that professionals should always aim at being original. Isn't that the reason why Scott is able to sell Blades? He got to where he is today because he was original, not because he was copying other magicians.
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (Jun 5, 2010 1:10am)
"So by Polygons logic movie and Broadway stars must really suck. They just work off of a script, directing, notes, etc... Anyone can do that. How boring. The REAL stars would be chopping up Shakespeare and adding their own endings and plot twists simply to show off their theatrical genius."

Keith, do you really believe this is relevant to what I was trying to stress?

Many may think that Blaine, DC, and Angel are the cat's meow. The true originals tower over these guys. Aside from the fact that they use little or nothing original, you could fit the personality of all three of those guys in a thimble if you ask me. I could name many, many great performers that never borrowed iota one from anyone....and those would be my favorites.

Here might be something of consideration. If you are the type of professional performer that takes an existing effect, and makes it your own performance piece, how much of that effect do you want to look and sound exactly like someone else's gig?
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 5, 2010 2:30am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-05 01:10, polygonsmagic wrote:
I could name many, many great performers that never borrowed iota one from anyone....and those would be my favorites.



I'll play.

Name 5.
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Jun 5, 2010 4:27am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-05 02:30, truthteller wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-06-05 01:10, polygonsmagic wrote:
I could name many, many great performers that never borrowed iota one from anyone....and those would be my favorites.



I'll play.

Name 5.



"I'll play"??? Oh my god, where did you come up with that Truthteller? Genius. And to top it off you ask to "Name 5" (instead of asking this ignoramus to name 1, 2, 3, or 4 performers). As always, you go the extra mile.

Another Zinger!!!! Again, just when things were getting boring. Go thread. Go Truthteller!
Message: Posted by: Caliban (Jun 5, 2010 5:13am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-05 02:30, truthteller wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-06-05 01:10, polygonsmagic wrote:
I could name many, many great performers that never borrowed iota one from anyone....and those would be my favorites.



I'll play.

Name 5.



Brad, obviously all performers have influences, but it's not difficult to name performers who only perform effects for which they have developed their own presentation: John Archer, Steve Spill, Michael Finney, Jeff Hobson, Max Maven ... would be 5 off the top of my head. And I'm restricting the list to names that everyone will know. I've never heard of any of the above presenting a routine with another performer's presentation and gags.

It becomes much easier to compile a list if we look away from the world of magic. For comedy the list of those who perform only their own original material (or material written specially for them) would include pretty much everyone who is currently successful on the British comedy scene.

People often mention Sinatra not writing his own songs when this argument comes up. In many cases, though, Sinatra's best known songs were written for him - he did the original versions. Sinatra also arranged the songs to fit his own style. I'd say that Sinatra's songs can more accurately be compared to the tricks in a magic act rather than the presentations. He performed them in his own way, which, I'd say, is the equivalent of developing his own presentation for them. Also, don't forget that Sinatra became a star in the 40's and 50's. Since the 60's the vast majority of musical acts who made a big impact were best known for performing their own songs - or the original versions of songs that were written for them. And the more highly regarded the singer/band as an artist, the more true that tends to be.
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (Jun 5, 2010 12:27pm)
"Can't seem to recall how many original songs Sinatra wrote.."

I'm thinking that Corpmagi....that probably stands or is short for, "corporate magician". If you are a successful corporate magician, you mean to tell me you don't know what point I'm trying to make? How many $800 routines do you buy that have every single joke and nuance laid out for you, so you have to test nothing on your audiences?

Quote:

Quote:

On 2010-06-05 01:10, polygonsmagic wrote:
I could name many, many great performers that never borrowed iota one from anyone....and those would be my favorites.


I'll play.

Name 5.


Truthteller, you are a reviewer for Magic magazine. All I can say is....are you kidding me? You can't name FIVE original performers? Amazing. If you were right here, you could take your money out...lots of it. Then we'll play.

tdowell, your first post was done in such a way that I thought either this guy is rich with sarcasm or he really loves truthteller. Thanks for clearing that up.
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 5, 2010 1:36pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-05 12:27, polygonsmagic wrote:

Truthteller, you are a reviewer for Magic magazine. All I can say is....are you kidding me? You can't name FIVE original performers? Amazing. If you were right here, you could take your money out...lots of it. Then we'll play.



I can think of lots of very creative and innovative performers. Most of them are very well read and have numerous friends in the magic community. They research ideas, discuss them among their peers, receive feedback and ideas from those they respect and then incorporate every resource available into their final product.

This is far different from "never borrowing one iota from anyone."

In fact, I can think of several name magicians - some listed on this page - with whom I have personally sat down and discussed routines like this. Many of the name magicians who actually work for real people (not glorified magic dealers whose "shows" of original material are only seen at magic conventions and on instructional dvds) regularly turn to their peers (or the past) for lines, concepts, methods and ideas. Many of these people will outright pay another performer for the use of their routine.

Now, you may not be aware of that fact - because we are usually talking about working material - the kind of stuff you won't see these guys do at a magic convention. I'm talking about the real material - the stuff you see when you hire them to perform an event for real people.

Just because you don't know where they get their ideas from, doesn't mean they aren't getting their ideas from somewhere.

As a reviewer, I know that ideas have a lineage. Smart magicians understand this and not only credit those that came before, but add to the history of ideas. I see a lot of young, naive tyros make claims that what they are offering is "completely revolutionary" only to discover that they are once again offering little more than a variation on a theme. Sometimes they are ignorant of the theme - often they have no idea how much is really required before something transcends "variation" into "revolution."

So, back to my original question - what magicians do you know of who have "never borrowed one iota from anyone?"

As to polygon's position:

Many professionals have different needs. For example, I have been working the same venues with largely the same crowds for almost 16 years now. Sure I have my work horse material that I consider "mine" (though I would never call it that in print - as I know the lineage of the ideas and from whence I borrowed) and I enjoy it when I can present "my" show to them.

But I have a specific need - I MUST change up my material.

So, paying a couple of thousand dollars for a complete routine that I can add with a little time and effort on my part is money well spent. I may end up loving the routine and making it into something I feel is "mine." Or, it may serve it's purpose for the season and I've made a few thousand people happy.

Last summer I put the Wellington Spirit Table into the show. I dropped a little under a grand for it (after shipping). Great prop. But was the routine that I presented a fully polished finished presentational masterpiece?

Sadly, no. By the end of the tour it was pretty good, but ultimately I would have been thrilled to drop another $800 in order to have a solid 8 minutes for the act. There are many razor blade routines out there. One of them has been mentioned several times. I won't identify it by name, but if THAT'S the standard you want to hold your professional act to - then we might has well stop talking now, because to put that misguided, misinformed, monstrosity onstage is a triumph of ignorance over taste. (that last line was for you, tdowell).

I know corpmagi works the same companies every year - year after year. Sure, we all love going on "it's a small world" when we hit disneyland, but people like the new rides too. A working pro doesn't have time to "hammer out new stuff" on big money shows. $800 for a proven routine that will satisfy your long term clients and is guaranteed to have all the nuts and bolts worked out - - - do you know the definition of the word bargain?

Of course, this gets me thinking about trade show/custom industrial work. I do a lot of customized material for clients. If I felt that this would be a perfect scene in one of the immersive events I produce I would buy it at three times the price.

And then, I start thinking about a lot of the working acts I see. Not the names, but the guys trodding the boards - the cruise ship guys, the banquet show guys, the guys who are busting their butt out their every weekend earning a living.

Some of these guys will never be stars. That's ok. I would rather hire a hack act who hits his mark, says his lines, and entertains the audience with Kevin James's Bowling Ball, Martin Lewis's Cardiographic, and Whit Haydn's Ring Routine than a lot of the acts I see being touted as "original". (And I would much rather hire a guy using these workhorses than some clown who comes on the Café to find out how the latest trick they saw on TV works so they can put it into their "street magic set.")

Here's something to never forget: just because something is original, doesn't mean that it is good.

I think one of those workhorse magicians (who are the vast majority of those working today) would be thrilled to add another solid act to their shows. And as someone who hires acts, I would rather book someone doing solid material that wasn't theirs than iffy material that was.

I know one performer than many Café guys oogle over. He's known for releasing commercial routines (all of them are based on preexisting ideas just cobbled together in a somewhat different configuration.) But, I will say this, I knew him early on when EVERYTHING he did was stock. EVERYTHING he did was someone elses (mostly ethically obtained).

It was from doing proven material that he learned what works. He listened to his audiences and studied the routines he bought/borrowed. That allowed him (once he started having his own ideas) to be able to put them together in a workable structure that Café members drink like manna from heaven.

$800 to study and pick apart a work horse routine is - again, what's that word - oh, yeah - bargain.

But ultimately, there will be push back. Not because of creativity issues. Not because of advertising - but because of price.

Magicians believe they are entitled to everything. They get upset when they are told "no." It even makes some of them say silly things, like they know plenty of magicians who never borrow one iota from anyone. (I wonder if anyone has ever written about this. The idea of art that is completely original. One might call it "high art". That would be a great way to look at our magic, yes? I wonder if someone ever wrote about high art in our magic what they would say about it, and how common it is, and how it related to the majority of commercial magic being produced. Maybe someday someone will write about our magic. I just hope they don't borrow one iota from anyone.)

This is Scott's routine. He can share it. He can choose not to share it. He can sell it. He can choose not to sell it. He can sell it for a lot of money, or a little.

Ultimately, it's HIS to do with as HE pleases.

He has decided that not everyone gets to take it for the price of an internet connection and a youtube account.

I'm sorry this upsets you, but you really can't say anything about it.

It's his.

Why can't we let him do what he wants?

Why are you so upset?
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 5, 2010 3:09pm)
Truthteller (Brad),

When you say it like that, who can argue your points. :)

However, a few others comments in Scott's defense were not so well put.
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (Jun 5, 2010 3:38pm)
"As to polygon's position:"

31 paragraphs later, my position is still the simple same. As I stated: "I could name many, many great performers that never borrowed iota one from anyone....and those would be my favorites."

I see your points. If you are in a hurry or have a hard time creating your own routine from a standard plot, then $800, or in your case with the spirit table.. $1800, is a bargain for someone to do all the work for you. For your imformation, that is NOT what I was talking about.

"Just because you don't know where they get their ideas from, doesn't mean they aren't getting their ideas from somewhere."

And I'll quote myself again in case you weren't following along. "A professional performer is usually someone who can create and perform original material on their own, or with minor inspiration from existing material. In other words, they make an effect their own by adding their own personal touches, just as Scott has done here."

"Magicians believe they are entitled to everything. They get upset when they are told "no." It even makes some of them say silly things, like they know plenty of magicians who never borrow one iota from anyone."

Since this is also directed at me, let me quash it too: I don't believe, nor have I ever had the notion that I am entitled to everything. Where did that come from? I'm not upset, no one has told me "no". Where did that come from?. And those 2 false accusations make me say silly things? Hmmff.

I've seen others in this thread state that some are upset because of the $800 price tag. I really believe there are zero people reading this that are upset because of the price tag. Guys like truthteller think it is a bargain. Guys that look at this and say this is not for me are not upset. The only people that would be upset about this are guys that are saying, boy I want that more than anything and it is priced out of my price range. That is redundant because all the scenarios I am seeing here are that this routine is aimed at, and is a bargain for professional performers, who most likely would have the means to pay for it.
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 5, 2010 4:14pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-05 15:38, polygonsmagic wrote:
"As to polygon's position:"

31 paragraphs later, my position is still the simple same. As I stated: "I could name many, many great performers that never borrowed iota one from anyone....and those would be my favorites."



Who are these people who have never borrowed one iota from anyone.

I've had the privledge to work with a lot of the top names in magic.

There is a lot of borrowing and sharing among them. There's are deals where people trade routines and even pay for them.

Just because you don't see it or know about it doesn't mean its now. there

Quote:


And I'll quote myself again in case you weren't following along. "A professional performer is usually someone who can create and perform original material on their own, or with minor inspiration from existing material. In other words, they make an effect their own by adding their own personal touches, just as Scott has done here."


So, the cruise ship guys that do haydn's ring routine aren't professionals. When one of the top corporate magicians on the planet paid wayne dobson for his routine, does that mean he's not a pro?

There are a lot of magicians who make their living performing who paid for every trick or every line they do.

Are they not pros?

It seems you think its ok to pick ideas here and there to add to your work, but where is the line. Finding an old line and adding it is ok - why not a routine?

Trick selection is as important as anything, yes?

A great concert pianist seldom writes the material they perform. But the pieces they select convey their style and vision as well as the manner in which they perform them.

Are actors and directors who attempt to perform shakespeare in its original form not professionals?

Quote:

"Magicians believe they are entitled to everything. They get upset when they are told "no." It even makes some of them say silly things, like they know plenty of magicians who never borrow one iota from anyone."

Since this is also directed at me, let me quash it too: I don't believe, nor have I ever had the notion that I am entitled to everything. Where did that come from? I'm not upset, no one has told me "no". Where did that come from?. And those 2 false accusations make me say silly things? Hmmff.

I've seen others in this thread state that some are upset because of the $800 price tag. I really believe there are zero people reading this that are upset because of the price tag. Guys like truthteller think it is a bargain. Guys that look at this and say this is not for me are not upset. The only people that would be upset about this are guys that are saying, boy I want that more than anything and it is priced out of my price range. That is redundant because all the scenarios I am seeing here are that this routine is aimed at, and is a bargain for professional performers, who most likely would have the means to pay for it.



I believe this is what it boils down to. Magicians get upset when being told no.

You say this is not motivating your position.

So I'll ask - what's your problem?
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (Jun 5, 2010 4:16pm)
Truthteller, here is an expample of what I would deem an original performer. Maybe it will help you.

Sylvester the Jester.

Did he borrow a couple iotas? Yes, let's see, off the top of my head he uses the muscle pass, a modified retention pass, some sound and visual effects to accompany his actions, and probably some other gestures that sleight of hand guys use.

Would you consider his act totally original? Entirely.

Could I name 4 more? Have your money ready.
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 5, 2010 4:18pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-05 16:14, truthteller wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-06-05 15:38, polygonsmagic wrote:
"As to polygon's position:"

31 paragraphs later, my position is still the simple same. As I stated: "I could name many, many great performers that never borrowed iota one from anyone....and those would be my favorites."



Who are these people who have never borrowed one iota from anyone.

I've had the privledge to work with a lot of the top names in magic.

There is a lot of borrowing and sharing among them. There's are deals where people trade routines and even pay for them.

Just because you don't see it or know about it doesn't mean its not there

Quote:


And I'll quote myself again in case you weren't following along. "A professional performer is usually someone who can create and perform original material on their own, or with minor inspiration from existing material. In other words, they make an effect their own by adding their own personal touches, just as Scott has done here."


So, the cruise ship guys that do haydn's ring routine aren't professionals. When one of the top corporate magicians on the planet paid wayne dobson for his routine, does that mean he's not a pro?

There are a lot of magicians who make their living performing who paid for every trick or every line they do.

Are they not pros?

It seems you think its ok to pick ideas here and there to add to your work, but where is the line. Finding an old line and adding it is ok - why not a routine?

Trick selection is as important as anything, yes?

A great concert pianist seldom writes the material they perform. But the pieces they select convey their style and vision as well as the manner in which they perform them.

Are actors and directors who attempt to perform shakespeare in its original form not professionals?

I can't think of a single original thing in the first blaine special. A lot of other specials contained ideas produced by consultants, not the magician. Are you saying Blaine isn't a professional magician?

How is buying a trick off a consultant and paying scott really any different?

Quote:

"Magicians believe they are entitled to everything. They get upset when they are told "no." It even makes some of them say silly things, like they know plenty of magicians who never borrow one iota from anyone."

Since this is also directed at me, let me quash it too: I don't believe, nor have I ever had the notion that I am entitled to everything. Where did that come from? I'm not upset, no one has told me "no". Where did that come from?. And those 2 false accusations make me say silly things? Hmmff.

I've seen others in this thread state that some are upset because of the $800 price tag. I really believe there are zero people reading this that are upset because of the price tag. Guys like truthteller think it is a bargain. Guys that look at this and say this is not for me are not upset. The only people that would be upset about this are guys that are saying, boy I want that more than anything and it is priced out of my price range. That is redundant because all the scenarios I am seeing here are that this routine is aimed at, and is a bargain for professional performers, who most likely would have the means to pay for it.



I believe this is what it boils down to. Magicians get upset when being told no.

You say this is not motivating your position.

So I'll ask - what's your problem?

Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 5, 2010 4:18pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-05 15:38, polygonsmagic wrote:
"As to polygon's position:"

31 paragraphs later, my position is still the simple same. As I stated: "I could name many, many great performers that never borrowed iota one from anyone....and those would be my favorites."

I see your points. If you are in a hurry or have a hard time creating your own routine from a standard plot, then $800, or in your case with the spirit table.. $1800, is a bargain for someone to do all the work for you. For your imformation, that is NOT what I was talking about.

"Just because you don't know where they get their ideas from, doesn't mean they aren't getting their ideas from somewhere."

And I'll quote myself again in case you weren't following along. "A professional performer is usually someone who can create and perform original material on their own, or with minor inspiration from existing material. In other words, they make an effect their own by adding their own personal touches, just as Scott has done here."

"Magicians believe they are entitled to everything. They get upset when they are told "no." It even makes some of them say silly things, like they know plenty of magicians who never borrow one iota from anyone."

Since this is also directed at me, let me quash it too: I don't believe, nor have I ever had the notion that I am entitled to everything. Where did that come from? I'm not upset, no one has told me "no". Where did that come from?. And those 2 false accusations make me say silly things? Hmmff.

I've seen others in this thread state that some are upset because of the $800 price tag. I really believe there are zero people reading this that are upset because of the price tag. Guys like truthteller think it is a bargain. Guys that look at this and say this is not for me are not upset. The only people that would be upset about this are guys that are saying, boy I want that more than anything and it is priced out of my price range. That is redundant because all the scenarios I am seeing here are that this routine is aimed at, and is a bargain for professional performers, who most likely would have the means to pay for it.



Very true. Can't logically argue that either.

Just one innocent question. What was the point of starting a thread in the, "Latest and Greatest?" on the Café where the rules clearly say,

"Latest and Greatest? - FORUM RULES

OVERVIEW:

It's inevitable that not a week goes by that we don't hear about the next great trick, book or DVD that is about to be released into our magic community. Naturally, we are curious and usually have a question or two floating around in the back of our collective heads. Given all that, It is perfectly normal that we can easily imagine what such a product might be like, and what it might do to improve our own magic performances. But, until the item is actually obatainable for purchase, we can only use our imaginations and speculate.

That is the purpose of this forum. To provide a place where folks can discuss the latest rumors, read announcements and speculate about the obvious hyperbole surrounding many of the upcoming products that are released into magicdom. Will they be genuine miracles or mere rhetoric? We ponder the question...

FORUM RULES & GUIDELINES:

Curious about an upcoming product? This is the forum to post your thoughts. THIS FORUM IS NOT FOR REVIEWS. Reviews imply that you actually own and have used the trick, read the book or watched the DVD. Such posts should be made in the appropriate forum located in our The Good, the Bad, and the Garbage category. This forum is all about hype and speculation - nothing more, nothing less.

SPECULATION -VS- EXPOSURE:

It is , after all, only natural to speculate the possible method to a new trick or effect. Comments as to possibilities of a method are just that - Possibilities. One person may say; "I think it might use a piece of velcro" while another may comment; "No, it probably uses a magnet". Either scenario is okay.

However, If someone knows for a fact what the method is and posts it, then we have exposure and the post will be deleted with NO EXPLANATION given.

Finally, those individuals who come to this forum expecting to receive free advertising, think again. Obvious commercial posts (e.g, Now taking pre-orders, Our new product will ship on ..., We are offering a special if you order now, I accept PayPal, etc) will be removed and the offending member may be banned at the descretion of management. You have been warned. For complete details concerning our advertising polices, Click here!. Happy posting."

and then be upset with those who ask questions, make speculations. This forum is all about hype and speculation is it not?

Why are a few being ignorant and quick to be defensive, while making wild accusations of their own?

If this topic is not allowed to be discussed by anyone other than those who are serious professional magician's without them being chewed out for particapating in the discussion, (even if they don't have any interrest in buying it), maybe it shouldn't be here then?
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 5, 2010 4:26pm)
Dan,

My interest is not in the specific trick but the issues and reactions surrounding it.

I ask, why can't scott and bob (or any creator) charge what they want or put whatever restrictions they want on their work?

Apparently this has upset people.

We see a lot of sound and fury and arguments that lead to nowhere - arguments that have nothing to do with the trick.

We know what the trick is. We have all the information we will get.

People are upset.

Why?

I think because for some reason this is pushing buttons hotter than 'I wonder if this trick will be any good?'

So, I ask - why are people upset?

They have all the information they will get. They know the terms. Pretty much the thread - as a prereview thread- has done all it can.

So why are people upset?

I put forth my theory. Any others?
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 5, 2010 4:29pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-05 16:16, polygonsmagic wrote:
Truthteller, here is an expample of what I would deem an original performer. Maybe it will help you.

Sylvester the Jester.

Did he borrow a couple iotas? Yes, let's see, off the top of my head he uses the muscle pass, a modified retention pass, some sound and visual effects to accompany his actions, and probably some other gestures that sleight of hand guys use.

Would you consider his act totally original? Entirely.

Could I name 4 more? Have your money ready.



You spoke like these completely original performers were a dime a dozen.

I figured I would have a list of 10 from you by now.

B

Ps. Most of sylvesters gags were taken directly from the work of fleischer, avery, jones et al. All he did was make them performable on the stage as opposed to the screen.

I don't know if that exempts him from never having 'borrowed one iota' as his whole act is about replicating someone elses work - albeit in a different media.

See, this is fun.
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (Jun 5, 2010 4:46pm)
"So why are people upset?"

You seem to be the only person upset at this time. Who is upset?

"You spoke like these completely original performers were a dime a dozen.
I figured I would have a list of 10 from you by now."

Where in my statements did I say original performers were a dime a dozen? It never ends with you. Why would I give you a list of 10 original performers? This is insane. But I'm not upset.

I'm out of here. Have a nice discussion in the thread where no one is allowed to promote or advertise, and we are supposed to....well, you can read above......

"That is the purpose of this forum. To provide a place where folks can discuss the latest rumors, read announcements and speculate about the obvious hyperbole surrounding many of the upcoming products that are released into magicdom. Will they be genuine miracles or mere rhetoric? We ponder the question..."

and...

"Finally, those individuals who come to this forum expecting to receive free advertising, think again. Obvious commercial posts (e.g, Now taking pre-orders, Our new product will ship on ..., We are offering a special if you order now, I accept PayPal, etc) will be removed and the offending member may be banned at the descretion of management. You have been warned."
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 5, 2010 4:53pm)
I'd be happy with 5. But you said all of your favorite magicians never borrowed one iota from anyone.

That just seems like a gross generalization hoping to masquerade as something which could support someone's position.

Nice chatting. Catch you around.
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (Jun 5, 2010 5:05pm)
"But you said all of your favorite magicians never borrowed one iota from anyone."

No, and this is the umpteenth time you've misquoted me. I simply said....the most original performers would be my favorite. Which is a far cry from what you perceived. You seem to continually ignore, or have the inability to perceive my original thoughts.

If you think that taking cartoon characters and making them into a real life stage act is not original, all you are doing is fudging to make yourself right. Clearly you can see the difference between Sylvester's contributions and buying someone else's routine for $800 and performing it word for word, sleight for sleight. Can't you?
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 5, 2010 5:49pm)
You wrote:I could name many, many great performers that never borrowed iota one from anyone....and those would be my favorites.

Now, that reads to me like you are saying there are many great performers (present tense - they exist) who never borrow one iota. Those non-bowering performers are your favorites.

I realize 'would be' can be read in a future tense. As in, if non-borrowing performers existed, they would then be my favorite.

But that contradicts your assertion that you can now name many non borrowing greats.

Now, I can imagine someone trying to do all original material - but I don't know if that condition would make them great or even allow them to book shows.

Even the single magician you named was asked to no longer perform in the palace of mystery because the lay audience response was so negative to his act.

Just because it's original, does not mean it is good.

(And in fairness to sylvester, I think other elements were in play).

So, based on YOUR words, it seems that you can name many MANY magicians (5? 10?) who 'never borrowed one iota'. It also seems that these are your favorites but maybe you were speaking in a future tense.

And yes, I think sylvester had a great idea. We can even bandy around the word original, though I think that would require some clarification. Would Maskelyne consider his act high art by the definition set forth in Our Magic?

Again, worthy of discussion.

But that's not the same as saying 'never borrowed one iota' is it?

See, you drew a hard line - one I don't think that can be defended.

I called you on it.

Now, if we want to talk about original or different or commercial or artistic - then we get into shades and gradiations.

Is it ok to borrow a line but not a script? A trick but not a line?

I think that is an important discussion. And it becomes interesting once we move outside of theory into practice.

Is blaine a professional? What about the cruise ship act doing whit's rings and martin's cardrise?

I know a master machinist who can make the smallest of screws and any bolt in the world.

But when he builds something, he buys those from the store because its a better use of his resources.

There are many reasons a magician, a professional magician, would want to acquire a ready made routine.

Because they do is no reason to claim they can't also come up with their own or they are less than a professional.

So, still standing by the one iota claim?

You sure do write a lot for someone who left.
Message: Posted by: Kamal (Jun 5, 2010 8:30pm)
I just put my order in.

For those that are wondering why I bought it:

Full-time magician - Check
Cruise ship performer - Check
Am too busy with shows to F-around, and just want something that works - Check


To me, the cost of an effect is irrelevant. Just so long as the price represents it's value (to me).

I have several Bob Kohler produced items, including the Goose, Slashed and Human Phone Number. I've found all of them to be fairly priced for what you get, and I'm expecting the same value from The Blades.

I'll be sure to add some thoughts to the review thread after I receive the package (about a week to Australia).
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 7, 2010 5:25pm)
A search of Poly's Previous Posts Proves Productive.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jun 8, 2010 11:32am)
I agree with you, Truthteller, in fact, it brings to mind the famous quote: "All art is theft."
Sylvester the Jester stole most of his ideas from cartoons. Of course, he's an "original" performer, inasmuch as before him this type of stage presentation of cartoon comedy had been limited to individual gags. I'm sure Sylvester has studied Laurel & Hardy and other comedy greats too.
"Blades" isn't original at all if you look at it one way - because the Razor Blade trick already existed, and Scott admits he studied other methods to create his own.
The originality is in the particular sequence of gags, the specific method, etc. And any working professional knows that to get a solid, audience tested routine of quality for a few hundred bucks, is a good deal.
David Blaine, who has been slated in a post (above) is one of the few who I consider to have truly original thinking. Not his close-up work, but some of his endurance feats. For that, in my opinion, he has proved himself at least an equal to Houdini. I particularly liked Standing on a Big Pole for Three Days - brilliant!
Potty :)
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Jun 8, 2010 3:07pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-08 11:32, Potty the Pirate wrote:
David Blaine, who has been slated in a post (above) is one of the few who I consider to have truly original thinking. Not his close-up work, but some of his endurance feats. I particularly liked Standing on a Big Pole for Three Days - brilliant!



Yeah, being frozen in a block of ice... oh, wait.
Yeah, being buried alive...oh, wait.
Yeah, staying under water longer than...oh, wait.
Yeah, standing on a pole..oh, wait, Ace Ventura movie.

:)
Message: Posted by: mumford (Jun 8, 2010 6:01pm)
Pole sitting/standing was an often performed publicity stunt back in Roaring Twenties America.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jun 10, 2010 6:39am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-08 18:01, mumford wrote:
Pole sitting/standing was an often performed publicity stunt back in Roaring Twenties America.


Now you remind me, I do recall other that other folks have done that. In fact, I seem to recall this happened millenia ago. Oh well, maybe he isn't original either. I still love his stunts, though!
:)
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Jun 11, 2010 10:21am)
Interesting discussion.

Most of the working professionals I know have a mixture of great ideas from other performers and some of their own routines in their act.

The way I think about my act is I first consider effect. What effects do I want to present to the audience that fits my style and personality. For instance I've been performing the Bill In Lemon for close to thirty years.

I love the effect and I know its power and effect on an audience. Right now I'm very happy with my routine.
It's me. I've worked long and hard to get it to where it's at today.

But I'm a believer in that if someone creates a better mousetrap I'm certainly going to consider it. Especially if if it's going to make my life a little better.

I know from experience that it really doesn't matter if the material is your creation or not. The world is not going to know or care if you created a routine or not. Mostly they are going to decide if your performance was good or bad and if you were entertaining or not. The caveat is of course effects that are famous and are linked forever to a performer like David Copperfield vanishing the Statue of Liberty. But these are the exception not the rule.

If you are capable of creating all new material so that your show is 100% original and great, my hat's off to you. It's a really tough job. I expect you will soon be famous.
Message: Posted by: Tim Ellis (Jun 12, 2010 5:22am)
Just came across this thread and notice my name mentioned a few times.

Yes, my 'Ultimate Blades' is available on our DVD 'Ellis in Wonderland' for $35 (with a dozen other effects) but due to demand we recently released it as a stand alone video download for $10.

http://www.australianmagician.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=15

Or you can get it as an eBook

http://www.australianmagician.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=21

(We couldn't justify a higher price as it's just one trick on a $35 DVD).

Why do I feel I've priced it way too cheap! ;)
Message: Posted by: mmreed (Jun 12, 2010 11:11am)
That's awesome Tim.

If the Café had LIKE buttons like facebook, Id be clicking it!!!
Message: Posted by: Kamal (Jun 15, 2010 6:14am)
OK - fist the disclaimer: I have only watched the instructional DVD, and have not performed this. Having said that, the live performance on the DVD proves that this works.

First of all, I really like Scott's character and stage personality. It's very similar to my own, which is one of the reasons I felt comfortable buying his routine (more disclaimer: I also own Slashed).

The quality of the instructional DVD is, like every other Bob Kohler product I've purchased, first-rate. Scott goes over everything in detail, and having watched the DVD through, I found it to be totally thorough, leaving me with absolutely no questions (a rare thing in today's magic world).

I'll admit, I was terrified that I wouldn't like the presentation. But I love it. It's cute, clever and is exactly what I'm looking for.

Full credit to Scott's father for coming up with a cracking line. I laughed a lot at that one.


I don't know what else to say. Is it worth the $800? To me, most definitely.

I know a lot of people have baulked at the price tag - which I totally understand. Make no mistake, this package was designed for working professionals - both in it's price and it's value.

If you can't afford to pay for this in one show (ie, if you're not getting $800 per gig), then you shouldn't buy it. It's that simple.

If you can, and are looking for a performance hardened razor-blade routine, then this is definitely worthy of your consideration.

Thanks Scott - I'm literally jumping up and down with excitement about performing this.


I'm happy to take questions.
Message: Posted by: Scott Alexander (Jun 15, 2010 11:37am)
That's great Kamal. Thanks!
Hearing feedback like that really reaffirms the choices we made in our approach with this release.

Glad you got it, and even more glad you "get it."
;-)
Message: Posted by: Cody S. Fisher (Jun 15, 2010 5:25pm)
Name of Product: The Blades
Creator: Scott Alexander
Distributor: Bob Kohler Magic

A few weeks ago I was considering purchasing “The Blades” from Bob Kohler Magic. I was curious after reading the ad copy so I decided to contact Bob in order to ask a few more questions so that I could determine if this was “right for me” and the venues where I normally perform. After a very informative e-mail / phone call in which all my questions were answered, I decided to make the purchase.

Why am I mentioning all this before I get to the actual review? I guess in hopes to encourage others to do the same. Not just with this product, but with any investment you are ‘on the fence’ about. Instead of reading endless pages of speculation on various forums, why not just go directly to the source? I simply sent an e-mail to Mr. Kohler asking some genuine questions and he responded back within a few hours. One conversation later and all my questions / concerns had been addressed.

My point is this; don’t be afraid to contact magic dealers directly if you have an honest inquiry about their product. I am always willing to speak with individuals who contact me concerning my products, and I am sure that most dealers are too.

Onto the actual review!

The Effect:

For a complete description you can read the ad copy on Mr. Kohler’s website (www.bobkohlermagic.com), however for the sake of completeness here you go: The entertainer apparently swallows sharp razor blades and a length of thread. For the finale the performer is seen regurgitating the thread with the razor blades tied at intervals to the thread.

What You Receive:

When you open the box you will be looking at several items plus a nice little carrying bag to store all the props. Besides the various threads and blades you will need for the routine, you also receive a few gimmicks and an instructional DVD. I am intentionally being vague on the nature of the gimmicks as they are directly related to the actual method behind the routine. It’s a little difficult to rate the overall quality of ALL the items you receive as some are fairly common objects. How does one really rate the quality of the thread? ;-) In any case, everything you will need to perform is included in the package (minus a drinking glass). If I were to comment on quality, it would primarily pertain to the gimmicks that you receive and suffice it to say they will last a VERY long time.

The DVD Instructions:

The included DVD is professionally produced and contains a live performance of the routine and detailed instructions. Those who have purchased items from Mr. Kohler in the past will see the same high quality and standards as his previous releases with Mr. Alexander. Even though I had a fairly good knowledge base for this type of effect I still found myself learning new things. For example, Scott’s method for setting up the blades for the final reveal is quite ingenious. The wrapping procedure he teaches keeps the blades from becoming tangled and ensures that they exit the mouth in the proper orientation.

The Set-Up / Performance Notes:

The basic set-up is fairly easy. Once you have done it a few times you will be able to get everything ready in a matter of minutes. You will not have to make up a new set for every performance as one gimmicked blades packet will last for MANY performances. Once everything is set-up, the main gimmick will easily fits in an inside jacket pocket. This could be performed entirely out of the pockets; however it would be a little easier if you had a small table on stage to hold a few of the props. (i.e. the glass of water) The only item not included in your package is a drinking glass. I would recommend one of the unbreakable plastic wine glasses you can find at Wal-Mart or Target stores. They are only a few dollars, look like a real wine glass, and are impossible to break.

Performance Venues:

If you have your own national TV special or you are considering getting your own live show in Las Vegas, then you may not want to purchase this as those rights are reserved. However, for ‘the rest of us’ you can pretty much perform this at all your normal gigs.

Video Restrictions:

You are not permitted to upload any video of this to the internet. I personally do not see a problem with this. If this bothers you then you may not want to purchase this. After speaking with Mr. Kohler about this I now understand where he is coming from. The video restrictions that have been set in place are for the buyer’s protection. Mr. Kohler and Mr. Alexander want to keep the routine, the method, the jokes, the lines, the gags, the bits of business, the music, and the choreography of the routine exclusive to their buyers.

Angles / Costume:

No issues here; could be performed completely surrounded. There are no clothing restrictions either.

The Actual Routine:

Other than the secret and the gimmicks, you are also purchasing an audience tested routine. When I initially watched the performance part of the DVD I was very impressed by the routine itself, I laughed at several of the original jokes and gags, and yes I was completely fooled by the method.

The routine itself is structured so that is has a defined beginning, middle, and ending. The routine begins with a well scripted introduction to the effect along with several funny lines that help set the tone for the routine. This is also the part of the routine where the performer can have the blades examined for authenticity. The opening joke of this section of the routine is very funny, one that I had never heard before, gets a BIG laugh from the audience, and fits the routine perfectly. (Mr. Alexander credits his father for the joke.) From here there is a very funny (and original) segment where Mr. Alexander demonstrates just how sharp the blades are. I have always found that this was the most boring part of any routine of this nature, but Scott has added a little something extra to it that makes it an absolute gem to watch and even gives you an extra added effect that will get a laugh.

I should mention that the routine from here on is wonderfully choreographed to music. The choice of music is absolutely perfect and will be recognizable by most audiences. The music allows for a little comedy byplay in the beginning as the performer eats the thread and then builds to a dramatic finish as the blades are removed from the mouth. I personally found the routine easy to learn as the music gave me audio cues as to what I should be doing at each stage.

Upon the completion of the routine and after the applause level dies down, Scott has one more VERY funny gag that brings the routine to a logical conclusion and has the audience in stitches once again.

Note On Music:

The music is NOT included in the package but you are given the title, album, and artist and it can be easily found on iTunes for 99 cents.

Final Thoughts:

Overall I am VERY pleased with this purchase. It is definitely something that I will use.

Cody S. Fisher
Message: Posted by: takeachance (Jun 15, 2010 11:40pm)
Well there's a hell of a recommendation, great review Cody, many thanks, and to Kamal as well.
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Jun 16, 2010 9:58pm)
Gentleman, thank you both for taking the time to review The Blades. As time goes on hopefully more of the pros who have invested in The Blades will let us know their thoughts and experiences.

The routine has already been sent all over the world from Australia to many countries in Europe, Asia and of course the US. Scott and I are thrilled by the reviews and the private emails we've received.

If you are considering The Blades and have questions please contact me.
Message: Posted by: Scott Alexander (Jun 17, 2010 7:21pm)
Wow, another great review. Thanks so much Cody!!!

A few who have The Blades and want to remain "off the radar" have also contacted me personally and I am delighted to hear the direct feedback as well. Any questions, ideas or thoughts are welcome. I'm more than happy to consult with you one on one. I haven't gotten to answer everyone yet, as I am traveling quite a bit, but I will asap. Thanks again for all your support.

This goes for folks on the fence too. If you feel this piece may be for you but are not sure, feel free to contact us and we'll address any of your needs or concerns to help you make an informed decision.

With magic,

Scott
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 18, 2010 10:50pm)
I'm sick and tired of seeing all of these Kohler lackeys regurgitate praise for everything he puts out. What do these guys know about MY performing needs? Have any of them even BEEN to my local magic club?

And it's not even a NEW idea. Scott admits he has been doing this for years. YEARS!!! That much money for an OLD idea?

Heck, I can go to the dollar store and buy some cheap razors and thread and save $798 dollars. And who wants to use some one elses script and jokes? I would much rather write my own. And I tell you what, it won't be something I've done thousands of times like Scott's. It will be something I come up with on the way to the show. I believe we should keep our performances fresh!

And this agreement - if I can't put a video of me doing this on youtube, whose ever going to see it?





(Hey, someone was eventually going to say it - thought I might as well beat them to it!)
Message: Posted by: Voldemort (Jun 18, 2010 11:42pm)
I'm going to make a prediction that the above post won't last to long. ;)

But at least someone said it.

I'll do one better. I 'm wondering how much Cody actually paid for this effect. I'm betting it wasn't list. Not that I expect an honest answer to that at all. In fact I'm sure there will be numerous protests and scandalized sounding responses.
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 19, 2010 12:13am)
I love magic.
Message: Posted by: Kamal (Jun 19, 2010 12:33am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-18 22:50, truthteller wrote:
I'm sick and tired of seeing all of these Kohler lackeys regurgitate praise for everything he puts out. What do these guys know about MY performing needs? Have any of them even BEEN to my local magic club?

And it's not even a NEW idea. Scott admits he has been doing this for years. YEARS!!! That much money for an OLD idea?

Heck, I can go to the dollar store and buy some cheap razors and thread and save $798 dollars. And who wants to use some one elses script and jokes? I would much rather write my own. And I tell you what, it won't be something I've done thousands of times like Scott's. It will be something I come up with on the way to the show. I believe we should keep our performances fresh!

And this agreement - if I can't put a video of me doing this on youtube, whose ever going to see it?

(Hey, someone was eventually going to say it - thought I might as well beat them to it!)



I can totally appreciate your opinion on this. But I need to clear some things up.

Firstly, I'm not a Kohler lacky. I don't own everything Bob Kohler has put out, just a few select items.

Are all of Bob Kohler's releases a winner? I don't think so. And I think it's healthy to disagree with something you don't like.

Whether you or anyone else here buys The Blades is irrelevant to me. I couldn't care less.

Who wants to use someone else's script and jokes? That's easy - I do.

I applaud you, and anyone else who has the time and creativity to come up with their own stuff - I really do. But I'm not a creative person. I wish I was, but I'm not.

Is Copperfield any less of a performer because he has someone else write his scripts? Does Lance Burton write his own material? I doubt it.


Youtube is a marketing tool for professional performers. I honestly couldn't care less about putting The Blades into a youtube clip. Why would I want to? Is The Blades the only thing worth seeing in my show? Is it the one thing that's going to get people to book me?

I'm putting The Blades in my show for private and corporate performances. Am I ever going to perform a ticketed show in Vegas? I seriously doubt it. I have ambition, but I seriously doubt someone is going to offer me a multi-million dollar contract with a proviso that I have to perform The Blades. You'd have to agree, it's a ridiculous scenario.

And your argument about a "fresh" performance is a fallacy. Actors recite other people's lines and make them "fresh" - that's their job. It's my job to entertain, and deliver the same lines (whether I wrote them or not) every night to a different audience and make them sound fresh. "Fresh" is in the delivery, not the creativity.

And I can't believe you're coming up with lines "on the way to the show". I don't know what the definition of unprofessional is, but that would come close.


Here's a crazy idea - how about we all stop whining, and go and entertain some people. Or is that not what we do any more?
Message: Posted by: Kamal (Jun 19, 2010 12:34am)
Oh, and I don't know how much Cody paid for this. And I don't care.

I thought the price was reasonable, and am happy to have paid it. I got my money's worth. What Cody, or anyone else paid is irrelevant to me.

And before anyone asks - yes, I paid the full list price, plus express shipping to Australia.
Message: Posted by: Voldemort (Jun 19, 2010 12:41am)
And... Here...We....Go.....
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 19, 2010 12:47am)
Am I the only one to get what truthteller was doing? I think truthteller wasn't being serious but rather being sarcastic in a humorous way. Trying to beat the naysayers to the punch.
Message: Posted by: Voldemort (Jun 19, 2010 1:00am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-19 00:13, truthteller wrote:
I love magic.



You should. It does give you many things. For example a nice forum such as this to make yourself feel important. You are truly a legend in your own mind.

Ahhh yes... We are all important here. Sitting behind our screens typing away... What an accomplishment. Especially for you oh great teller of "Truth". I expect your a shoe-in for a nice certificate and bozo badge. Keep checking that inbox.
Message: Posted by: Kamal (Jun 19, 2010 1:48am)
Ah, I see.

He was being facetious. Good ol' internet.
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 19, 2010 2:42am)
Ding ding ding
Message: Posted by: Kamal (Jun 19, 2010 3:16am)
Where's my prize?
Message: Posted by: Caliban (Jun 19, 2010 5:08am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-18 22:50, truthteller wrote:
And who wants to use some one elses script and jokes? I would much rather write my own ...



Quote:

On 2010-06-19 01:48, kamal wrote:
Ah, I see. He was being facetious.



Exactly, why would anyone want to write their own jokes and create their own presentations when they can buy a proven routine that's been performed thousands of times by one of the best in the business?

That's why I would never risk booking a magician like Scott Alexander. I mean, that guy isn't using other people's best routines that he's bought - he's actually performing his own original material with jokes that he's knocked together himself. He can't be very good.
Message: Posted by: Stucky (Jun 19, 2010 6:26am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-05 16:29, truthteller wrote:

Ps. Most of sylvesters gags were taken directly from the work of fleischer, avery, jones et al. All he did was make them performable on the stage as opposed to the screen.

I don't know if that exempts him from never having 'borrowed one iota' as his whole act is about replicating someone elses work - albeit in a different media.

See, this is fun.



You can NOT be serious? Really?
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jun 19, 2010 9:33am)
Quote:

On 2010-06-19 00:47, Gospel Dan wrote:
Am I the only one to get what truthteller was doing? I think truthteller wasn't being serious but rather being sarcastic in a humorous way. Trying to beat the naysayers to the punch.



I laughed at what Brad wrote and decided to wait to see if 'some' folks took the bait.

Brad needs a bigger boat!

Chris
Message: Posted by: truthteller (Jun 19, 2010 1:52pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-19 03:16, Kamal wrote:
Where's my prize?



Admittedly, you got it right on the SECOND try.

Here's a plastic spider ring.
:)
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 19, 2010 2:51pm)
Does that mean I get first prize? (lol)
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jun 19, 2010 4:47pm)
There are those creative souls than can create masterpieces, and then there are those that wish they could. Doubtless there are also many who couldn't care less. It is fair to say that your best material may well be the stuff you create yourself. But if you're getting booked to perform high quality shows, you'd better be sure your material is up to the mark.
If you haven't come up with enough routines that deliver, and you're a working professional, you will almost certainly be most gratified that you can just go ahead and invest a few hundred dollars for audience-tested and time-proven material.
Put sarcasm and egotism aside: I take my hat off to guys like Scott who is willing to share his hard work. The rewards he receives financially are really not that great, when you consider what Scott can demand for a performance.
I imagine that his greatest reward is in knowing that many others will take his work, develop their own versions of his routines, and that folks around the World are entertained by his original ideas and work.
Potty :)
Message: Posted by: Caliban (Jun 19, 2010 7:25pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-19 16:47, Potty the Pirate wrote:
It is fair to say that your best material may well be the stuff you create yourself. But if you're getting booked to perform high quality shows, you'd better be sure your material is up to the mark.
If you haven't come up with enough routines that deliver, and you're a working professional, you will almost certainly be most gratified that you can just go ahead and invest a few hundred dollars for audience-tested and time-proven material.



That's about the most sensible comment on the subject that I've read in this thread.

I remember reading something by Whit Haydn, maybe on this site, about doing 2 acts on a cruise ship. Whit said that his first show is his main act with all his "A" original routines, then, if he has to do a second show for the same audience, he performs some tried and tested routines by others, pretty much as were published. That strikes me as a professional attitude that makes sense.
Message: Posted by: Dan Bernier (Jun 19, 2010 8:21pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-19 16:47, Potty the Pirate wrote:
There are those creative souls than can create masterpieces, and then there are those that wish they could. Doubtless there are also many who couldn't care less. It is fair to say that your best material may well be the stuff you create yourself. But if you're getting booked to perform high quality shows, you'd better be sure your material is up to the mark.
If you haven't come up with enough routines that deliver, and you're a working professional, you will almost certainly be most gratified that you can just go ahead and invest a few hundred dollars for audience-tested and time-proven material.
Put sarcasm and egotism aside: I take my hat off to guys like Scott who is willing to share his hard work. The rewards he receives financially are really not that great, when you consider what Scott can demand for a performance.
I imagine that his greatest reward is in knowing that many others will take his work, develop their own versions of his routines, and that folks around the World are entertained by his original ideas and work.
Potty :)



Well said. :)
Message: Posted by: Scott Alexander (Jun 21, 2010 11:08pm)
That's very true indeed. When I see someone who takes that leap of faith and invests their time and hard earned money in something I've put out there, and makes it their own, it's a really good feeling.
And sure, it's great to get paid, but it's much better to have someone say "Hey, that thing you do is awesome and thank you putting it out there. I get a great reaction with it."
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Jun 27, 2010 10:59pm)
Thanks to everyone who has supported The Blades!
Message: Posted by: mmreed (Jun 29, 2010 9:06pm)
I have to fess up... look back over the posts and you will see that I was very jaded in how I looked at The Blades offering... thinking how could a blades effect that has widely published methods and routines, be tweaked enough to merit such a high price and rigid rights agreement....

but folks, I have to say that I have been digging deep into Scott's other materials and have really shifted my perception. I am finding his material brilliant. Nothing over the top in terms of complexity - everything is focused to be easy to perform while hitting hard in terms of entertainment value to the spectators.

Scott, I eat my words from prior posts and applaud your creations. I have not seen the blades effect first hand yet... but if it continues in the quality of everything else I have digested over the past week - it is solid gold.

Kudos.
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Jul 1, 2010 3:16pm)
Mmreed - welcome to the Scott Alexander fan club! If you want to find out just how innovative and brilliant this guy is, I highly recommend his "Midnight Show" DVD. Here you will find a collection of simply awesome routines, including a virtually ipromptu "bullet catch", "Shattered", the BEST and FUNNNIEST presentation of "Dean's Box", a brilliant take on the "Water Monte", as well as several other highly commercial routines. Probably the best magic DVD in my collection, and you'll get to see this guy's fabulous stage persona, as well as learning some of the coolest routines in all of magic!
Doug:)
Message: Posted by: Scott Alexander (Jul 1, 2010 8:06pm)
Quote:

On 2010-06-29 21:06, mmreed wrote:
Scott, I eat my words from prior posts and applaud your creations. I have not seen the blades effect first hand yet... but if it continues in the quality of everything else I have digested over the past week - it is solid gold.

Kudos.



That's very nice of you to say. I'm glad you did a little digging. Coming back on this thread and saying something like that really says a lot about your character and integrity. I applaud you.

And yes, in order for me to put something out there, it does have to have a "heart." Something that is entertaining, with simple but effective method that you can rely on under fire. From all the e-mails I have received from customers who have The Blades, as well as the positive reveiws, I know that we have hit that mark again.

As Martha Stewart says..."It's a GOOD thing!"
Message: Posted by: Scott Alexander (Jul 1, 2010 8:08pm)
Doug....Thanks again... I don't even have a FAN PAGE on Facebook, let alone a fan club....haha!!!
Message: Posted by: insight (Jul 12, 2010 4:56pm)
This is brilliant thinking!

Regards,
Mike
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Jul 20, 2010 4:57pm)
I want to thank all of you who have invested in The Blades.

When Scott and I decided to release this product we had high hopes that the professionals would understand and agree with our vision. The Blades is a success for us on all levels.

Scott and I are already working on the next BK Pro Line release which will be out in time for Christmas. It's a routine that I used for years, taught my work to Scott and as usual he's putting his touches to it. It's another killer. This release will be handled exactly as The Blades.

Again, thanks for your support.
Message: Posted by: magicinsight (Jul 28, 2010 11:32pm)
I just received The Baldes from Mr. Kohler. The DVD has a performance of The Blades by Mr. Alexander before a large audience. It was an extremely well structured and well thought out routine with a lot of comedy mixed in with the inherent danger aspect of the razor blade routine. The routine is simply terrific, entertaining and baffling. Mr. Alexander goes through step by step in meticulous detain of everything you need to know how to prepare for and how to perform this terrific routine. The video production is the highest level as you might expect from Mr. Kohler.

You get everything you need to perform this magnificent routine. Some may balk at the price. But if you want a professional routine meticulously taught by a working professional, I would highly recommend The Blades. It is truly a "packs small, plays big" finale for a show. I highly recommend it.

Best regards,

Michael
Message: Posted by: alpha alex (Jul 30, 2010 12:45am)
Good luck to bob kohler and scott alexander
both great guys and I wish them well

personally
I rather pay for velocity and own something
:)
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Aug 6, 2010 6:05pm)
Interesting point of view...

Value is obviously paramount. Getting bang for your buck is the payoff for your investment.
Both Velocity and The Blades are stellar routines from Scott's show. Both routines are used
by professionals all over the world.

As a professional the true value of a professionally produced routine consists of many things.
The age old statement "packs flat, plays big" is important to me. With today's travel constraints
The Blades has a lot to offer. It would be difficult to find a routine that plays as big and pack as small.

I always pay close attention the the audience's reaction to the routine. The Blades is a proven closer.
It's packed with comedy and danger which rivet the audience's attention.

Both routines are basically the same price so the investment is the same.

In the end each of us must decide if it's more important to own property or intellectual property.
Message: Posted by: Mike McEathron (Aug 7, 2010 3:38pm)
This is an interesting thread...Because Bob and Scott have made the choice to become pioneers in the area of magic distribution, there will be some have difficulty with the new distribution model at BK magic. I would like to look at this from a business stand point how many of the blades do you think they will sell 1000, maybe? If that is the case then they stand to make what 80k after you deduct legal and production fees what are they truly left with...not much given the fee Scott will get paid for his show. When a BK pro line effect is placed in the market place it is done so with the idea that they are for working professionals and not weekend performers. Given that Scott has used this piece in his act for 15 years and has made the difficult choice to allow us the option of using the routine, I think protecting in any manner necessary is perfectly acceptable. I would suggest that with you tube and all the other "exposure" methods out there that this is a sure sign of things to come. I have a number of times emailed Bob and asked questions, he is always straight forward and to the point. I am thinking about the blades as a purchase not because I am a professional, but because I will be apart of an elite few. Bob, Scott, I think that this method of releasing top magic routines is very constant with the times. I only wish Velocity, FA and the mind reading goose as well as all other BK pro line effect had been released the same way...I am sure that this will start the fire storm again but so be it.

This is a working professional routine and he should have the right to protect it in any manner he feels fit. Without these protections many great routines will go to the grave with the perfomer and the art of magic will suffer.

Mike
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Aug 11, 2010 10:32am)
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your comments.I agree with your assessment. To me in many cases the "Information Age" has become the "Too Much Information Age".

Recently I've heard true stories from shows here in Vegas where members of the audience searched YouTube for the solutions to tricks WHILE they are watching the show. I may be wrong but this may take some mystery out of magic.

The demise or the protection of magic is in our hands. It's like Global Warming. The problem exists. The question is will magicians realize it and do something about it before it's too late. In many cases it's already too late.

So we have to take a second to think "who's going to be able to see this?" before we upload video to the web.

The issue of pros developing great material and not publishing it is real. I know many pros who won't even consider putting material on video or making it into a product. This is a direct reaction to the pirates and thieves that either copy or rip-off magic. In physics the law is "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sometimes the reaction takes awhile...

For those of you that don't think this is a real problem consider this. In 2009 I put 90% of my time into my magic business. In 2010 I'm working on 50% magic related projects and 50% into non-magic related business.

Hunter Thompson's great quote says it best "The magic business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side".
Message: Posted by: Potty the Pirate (Aug 11, 2010 11:06am)
Hunter Thompson's great quote says it best "The magic business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side".
Brilliant! :)
Message: Posted by: lebowski (Aug 11, 2010 12:47pm)
Bob is your post really saying we will see 50% less magic from your company this year?
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Aug 11, 2010 3:07pm)
Here's the long answer...

New products that start in our pipeline take different amounts of time to mature. By Christmas everything we're currently working on should be out. So this year is pretty set, but 2011 depends a lot on what happens with our new business models outside of magic.

Mike's post hit home with me because the reality is I haven't released the majority of my personal material yet. So far I've only released two sets of lecture notes, U3F, AITF, Human Phone Number, the Black Envelope and of course The Fitch-Kohler Holdout System. That's it. Most of these were released because the word had leaked out and if I hadn't released them they would have come out by somebody else.

I still have a ton of material I've used professionally but will it ever come out, I really don't know. I've had a blast working with other artists who are all good friends like Bob Fitch, Steve Spill, Scott Alexander, Bob Sheets and everybody else.

But the digital world has basically killed the DVD market. Without a prop that magicians can't make the DVD's are simply ripped, uploaded to bitTorrent and the product dies on the shelves because everybody has it for free within a few weeks of the release.

I'm not the only one who feels this way. My good friend Allan Ackerman has decided to quit publishing his card magic...period! This is a great loss for magicians. Allan has put out a ton of great stuff for decades. No more, it's over. When he saw the numbers of downloads on bitTorrent of his DVD's and found out about the .pdf's with all of his books everywhere he made a decision that it's simply not worth the energy, or the investment of time and money.

Some people complain and worry that the brick and mortar shops my generation grew up loving are fading.
It's true, the shops are fading fast. I think this is a major concern. I also think many of the smartest people I know in magic are looking at other options.

The Blades release is an attempt to put out a product and keep it's integrity intact. So far it's been very successful. Scott and I are planning on at least one more new stage product released the same way by Christmas. After that we'll see...
Message: Posted by: Kamal (Aug 13, 2010 7:39pm)
Quote:

On 2010-08-11 15:07, Bob Kohler wrote:
Scott and I are planning on at least one more new stage product released the same way by Christmas. A




Fantastic! Any hints on what it might be?
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Aug 15, 2010 3:14pm)
Sorry, no hints...
Message: Posted by: Mike McEathron (Aug 20, 2010 5:45pm)
Ordered...will be here next week...cant wait


Thanks, Bob

Mike
Message: Posted by: Scott Alexander (Aug 21, 2010 10:25pm)
Thanks Mike.
A couple more went out the door this week too. Thanks to all who I've spoken with over the past few weeks who expressed appreciation for what Bob and I are trying to establish with this offering.

I'll be doing three shows this week on the RCI Majesty outta Miami. The Blades will be featured in all of them.
Message: Posted by: Las Vegas Kid (Aug 22, 2010 7:49am)
Well I have to add my 2 cents in here for one main reason. I was at the empire show after show after show watching Scott do this routine hundreds of times. Scott killed it every time with this routine. Lets remember he was in Caesars Palace with the best of the best Ammar, McBride, Kalin, and Pendragon plus many more. I saw every act go through the close up room and stage and the BEST act I saw was Scott Alexander by far. I call Scott when I need real world advice and every time he has delivered in spades. For example in one phone call my tips at my table hopping gig went from 5-10 a table to 20-100 a table that's no bull. I owe Scott so much money due to his advice and guidance. I am glad this product is so expensive because when I get some money together my next purchase is BLADES. I am a self fish person and want none of you to have this routine but for those of you who like killer magic that will MAKE YOU MONEY then this is for you. This is not a *** packet trick this is some ones act we are talking about here. How much would you pay for doing Lances bird act. Go buy my new dvds now so I can go buy me a set of BLADES. I will always purchase, sit up and take notice to an effect Scott puts out and I suggest you do to. If you don't you leave more money for me. The only reason I am sharing this info is because of Scotts giving nature and he was never with holding with me and he has taught me to pass it on so I am.
Message: Posted by: Scott Alexander (Aug 24, 2010 3:13pm)
Thanks LVK!!! You have to let ideas flow to make room for new ones.
I've been thinking about doing a more regular consulting process soon. I really enjoy jamming on ideas. I'll be working on a way that I can do this sort of thing for more folks on a one on one basis.
In fact, I just sent Teller a bunch of thoughts on a new project he is working on. Hopefully some of them make it in the show. I've also been helping people who have the Blades, use the methodology, to create their own unique presentations.
If I can contribute any ideas that help people make their magic even a little stronger, we all benefit!
Message: Posted by: Mike McEathron (Aug 27, 2010 6:22pm)
Well the blades have landed I have had some time to look over the DVD, well it is official in my mind This is worth every single penny of the asking price. The routine is very funny ....my wife sees a lot of magic and she laughed and laughed again( might add I laughed out loud two or three times myself !.........worth every penny don't be afraid to invest in this....


Not much more need to be said.


Good Job Scott and Bob !


Mike
Message: Posted by: Kristian Skovbo (Aug 30, 2010 7:51am)
Got my blades 2 months ago, and have been playing around with the routine since.

Here is my review of Scott Alexander "The blades"

First of all, this is a worker for the professionel magician, who want something speciel!

It is, as Bob says, a closer for your show.

I am still waiting for the right moment for presenting "The blades", not because it is difficult, but you have to have the presentation right.

I think the price is fair, for a well constructed routine.

The only two things I have wished, was that Scott included a footage of "The blades" done in close-up, and parlor situation, so you really could see how versatile this routine is!

And, extra of all the props needed. I will last for a long time, but for that price, this could easily be included.

But one really positive thing, was the supportive contact I had with Scott, having questions about the routine.
Not something you always could expect!

I will definitely buy some of Scott´s products again!!

Best regards,
Kristian Skovbo

(Satisfied customer from Denmark)
Message: Posted by: Bob Baker (Sep 4, 2010 10:36pm)
Mine came today (fast service, Bob!), and I feel it is worth every penny I spent. The routine is excellent, with several big laughs, the M.O. is devilishly clever (I watched Scott's performance 3 times before watching the explanation, and I hadn't a clue), and Scott's explanation is clear and thorough.

Technically, this is not a difficult routine, but it is going to require a lot of practice and rehearsal. I own both "Shattered" and "Velocity," so I bought this one somewhat on trust. I was not disappointed. I really look forward to learning and eventually performing this routine.

Bob

P.S. I think mine was the last one Bob is ever going to produce, so the rest of you guys forget about it. ;)
Message: Posted by: Kristian Skovbo (Sep 7, 2010 2:48am)
I did "The blades" two times this weekend...

Don´t buy it ;-)

(I want it for myself)
Message: Posted by: Scott Alexander (Sep 7, 2010 2:19pm)
Thanks guys...
This is just one of those things that packs so small and plays so big.
I don't know if it is like this for you, but after the show, it is one of the most referenced pieces by the audience. It really sticks in their brain.

-Scott
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Sep 16, 2010 8:53pm)
I love it when customers say "Don't buy it I want it for myself"! Scott and I know and appreciate just how great this praise is.

The bad news is The Blades is still available : (
Message: Posted by: Mike McEathron (Sep 17, 2010 11:33am)
OMG you told me I got the last one LOL.......

mike
Message: Posted by: EricDraven (Sep 17, 2010 5:47pm)
Mhhh really tempted...
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Sep 18, 2010 1:47am)
Quote:

On 2010-08-07 15:38, Mike McEathron wrote:
...Because Bob and Scott have made the choice to become pioneers in the area of magic distribution, ...



This is not a new method of magic distribution. It is really the original method of magic distribution.

Years ago, like in the 1940's era, you walked in a store, gave the money to the man for a trick you read about in a catalog. He came out took your money and gave you a package wrapped in brown paper, tied with string. You did not open the package, but just left with your new miracle.

During the 1970's, Ken Brooke offered and sold many items on nothing but a sentence. I have a new effect, it is great, it cost this much. That it, and you just knew if Ken Brooke said it was great and commercial, it was. I have never been disappointed in an effect from him.

There is nothing wrong with this kind of promotion from honest dealers. I think it may be necessary to go back to the totally secret method of selling magic from the may be best returned to. This thinking that everything should be available to everyone in the world, just because they feel they have a right to know is totally wrong.
Message: Posted by: Cris Johnson (Sep 18, 2010 10:08am)
I second the motion.:) Bob puts out great stuff and besides, it's his RIGHT to sell it anyway he sees fit. I've LOVED everything he's out out that Ive bought and think most of it is underpriced.

I'm dying to buy the Blades and feel the fee is fair. I've heard of a couple of the jokes from another purchaser and LOVE LOVE LOVE the humor. The ONLY reason I don't own it is I have no place to perform it. I'm mostly a school show guy and blades are a big no-no...but if I did more corporate or college or even adult private parties, I'd be all over this.

Cris
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Sep 21, 2010 10:49am)
Hi Bill,
I completely agree with you.
First, I'm a huge Ken Brooke fan. Loved the man, the material and his integrity.
We are definitely following in Ken's footsteps although we've been forced to take additional steps to protect our products.

Ken didn't have to worry about the digital revolution but if he did I'm sure he'd been going down the same path we are taking.
Message: Posted by: Mike McEathron (Sep 28, 2010 3:20pm)
Good to see so many behind Bob on this offering, I am very pleased with my purchase........as for the rest of you please don't buy it............sorry bob...LOL
Message: Posted by: bsears (Oct 26, 2010 11:35pm)
My review having seen it performed and then having learned the method:

Blades really proven sharp? CHECK
Same blades placed in mouth? CHECK
Super-duper clean? CHECK
Dripping with drama? CHECK
A real worker for the working pro? CHECK
Fooled me completely? CHECK
Audience loves it and goes crazy? CHECK

So, there you have it, my review for Tim Ellis' brilliant routine "Ultimate Blades." You can download it for $10 from Tim. With all do respect to Mr. Scott and Mr. Kholer, I can't imagine that The Blades is $790 better. Unfortunately, for legal reasons, I am unable to watch Mr. Scott's routine in order to make a fair comparison. So, I'll just wish them the best and say thanks to Tim for releasing such a great, practical routine at a fair price! :)
Message: Posted by: Mike McEathron (Oct 27, 2010 10:12am)
Mr bsears
This form is not for you to come on an promote someone else's material this form is for a discussion for the blades.... how many people do you think own and perform tims routine ?...many I am sure, given the price...how many do you think perform the blades.....few..... I would rather pay a high price and keep the routine out the hands of people that are just curious(like you) ......scotts routine is very very funny that is not something you see with this routine very often......it is worth every penny they ask for it......

ps my mother always told me if you have nothing nice to say best to say nothing at all .........
Message: Posted by: polygonsmagic (Oct 27, 2010 11:35am)
I think you have it all wrong Mr. McEarthron from Ontario. First off, I don't know what a "form" is. Secondly, this is supposedly a place where we discuss these products and give them a thumbs up or...otherwise. If you can simply read the description of this category you will see...

"Latest and Greatest?
This forum provided as a place where folks can discuss the latest rumors, read announcements and speculate about the obvious hyperbole surrounding many of the upcoming products that are released into magicdom. Will they be genuine miracles or mere rhetoric? We ponder the question..."

Now if you can understand that, it seems we should be "pondering" here.

"ps my mother always told me if you have nothing nice to say best to say nothing at all ........."

And....a guy is telling you about a similar product for a billionth of the price...and that is not being nice? To whom? I'm guessing you are just another shill by your posts. Thanks for making it obvious.

And that bit about paying a ton of extra money because no one else will be doing it. Well, I'd be willing to bet all that extra money that not a soul would know how exclusive it is but you, but if that is worth it to you...I've got a few one liners that no one has ever heard except a few of my very close friends. You can have them for $1000 each.
Message: Posted by: Mike McEathron (Oct 27, 2010 4:00pm)
Mr or Mrs polygonsmagic

Your is a response is to be expected here at the Café...how can bsears give a review of a product he clearly does not own....as for me calling this a forum I guess the correct term is a thread...... sorry.......i cant help that many feel this is a great deal of money for a ROUTINE....but I am happy with my purchase...yes you have it very right...Bob Kohler pays me to come on here and say his stuff is good (LOL... NOT). You see if you read bsears post carefully here what happend he seen the routine( it fooled him) he then paid $10.00 downloaded it, learned the method and has never performed it.

My review having seen it performed and then having learned the method:

This is exactly what scott and bob are trying to prevent with a high price and an iron clad agreement to be signed before pruchase.

It makes me laugh that the vast majority of people that have negitive things to say about the blades... don't own the routine.....and complain about the price... if you think it is over priced don't buy it period, simple..... However coming on to this "THREAD" and hijacking it is not appropriate either.......

Now back on topic the Blades.......
Message: Posted by: ArtIn (Oct 28, 2010 11:47am)
Quote:

On 2010-09-18 01:47, wmhegbli wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-08-07 15:38, Mike McEathron wrote:
...Because Bob and Scott have made the choice to become pioneers in the area of magic distribution, ...



This is not a new method of magic distribution. It is really the original method of magic distribution.

Years ago, like in the 1940's era, you walked in a store, gave the money to the man for a trick you read about in a catalog. He came out took your money and gave you a package wrapped in brown paper, tied with string. You did not open the package, but just left with your new miracle.

During the 1970's, Ken Brooke offered and sold many items on nothing but a sentence. I have a new effect, it is great, it cost this much. That it, and you just knew if Ken Brooke said it was great and commercial, it was. I have never been disappointed in an effect from him.

There is nothing wrong with this kind of promotion from honest dealers. I think it may be necessary to go back to the totally secret method of selling magic from the may be best returned to. This thinking that everything should be available to everyone in the world, just because they feel they have a right to know is totally wrong.



very well said!
Message: Posted by: bsears (Nov 4, 2010 2:44pm)
First of all Mr McEathron, I gave a review of a trick I DO own, which is the Tim Ellis effect. Second, and I thank polygonsmagic for saying it first, I feel I have a responsibility to my fellow magi to alert them that there is a very similar product out there for a mere fraction of the price. That IS the nice thing to do, imo. And, seriously, the reason this thread is so long is primarily the price and related legal issues, so let's not delude ourselves that this is a "review" thread.

Finally, as has been pointed out previously, a lay audience is going to have no idea which version they are watching or how much you paid for it, so the "i'm paying for exclusivity" argument is lost on me. I would say that, in capable hands, Tim's version would bring the house down too. For a small fraction of the cost. So I'm just letting people know that they have options; you are of course free to buy which ever product suits your needs. :)
Message: Posted by: Scott Alexander (Nov 6, 2010 11:07am)
There are many options discussed on the manip forum under "famous razorblade effect" headding.
Everyone should indeed reasearch all the options when adding an effect to their program.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Lyle (Nov 7, 2010 12:47am)
Or do what I have done...

I have come up with my own Razor Blade routine that is 101% original in both method and routine, and since it's my own routine, I didn't have to shell out almost a grand on a routine that costs less than $10 to make.

Come up with your own stuff and you'll save a ton of money...and it's YOURS to perform when you want!

Christopher
Message: Posted by: INMOTION (Dec 27, 2010 4:57pm)
Any other feedback or reviews on the Blades?
Message: Posted by: Scott Alexander (Dec 31, 2010 9:59am)
I think there are some more reviews in the Tricks&Effects forum.
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Jun 23, 2011 5:02pm)
FYI "The Blades" is back in stock...
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (May 16, 2012 11:22pm)
So are you paying more for the routine than the method?
Message: Posted by: Scott Alexander (May 17, 2012 5:27pm)
Both have equal value, it's not a matter of either or so to speak.
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 20, 2012 1:30pm)
High quality professional routines contain value to working magicians. In the end the only thing that matters is "The Blades" delivers IMO the best practical method created with a unique presentation.
It's easy to do and gives pros a routine that not everybody in their market will be doing. In the end, an amazing audience reaction that builds your reputation is the real measure of value.
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (May 20, 2012 1:50pm)
In the 'old days" when someone retired their act ( perhaps they developed a new one ) they sold the rights to someone, for a great deal of money. I think a performer of Scott Alexander's calibre releasing a part of his act for such a small price is amazing!
Message: Posted by: HighClass (Oct 22, 2012 12:54pm)
I,ve been wanting to but this But I can't find a way to get a hold of Bob Kohler, to ask a couple of question. Before I drop $800, I just need a little info. Does any body have a number to Bob Kohler Magic?
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Oct 22, 2012 1:01pm)
Quote:

On 2012-10-22 12:54, HighClass wrote:
I,ve been wanting to but this But I can't find a way to get a hold of Bob Kohler, to ask a couple of question. Before I drop $800, I just need a little info. Does any body have a number to Bob Kohler Magic?



The e-mail on his Café profile is bobkohler@cox.net
Message: Posted by: Scott Alexander (Oct 25, 2012 9:39am)
If you cant get him, send me a pm.

-Scott
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Oct 30, 2012 9:56am)
My email address is: bobkohlermagic1@gmail.com.

The Café currently won't allow me to upgrade my email information. Apparently Gmail is blocked.

Bob