(Close Window) Topic: Creating Amnesia
Message: Posted by: jakubr (Feb 5, 2012 3:51am)
Hi guys!

It's probably my first post on hypnosis forum, and that's because I don't do much of it. But there was always one effect that amazed me, which is making people forget stuff. I saw many variations of the effect where you show someone the card and make them forget it. Finally I decided to try t for myself. I got some success, but more people who I tried it on were actually able to remember the card, only some forgot.

So I recorded some of my performance, and I thought, maybe you could give me some advice, what to look for, how to make it work more often. Here are some of my attempts (it begins at 2:30)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9sZ6LexzL8
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 5, 2012 11:17am)
It seems to me that there is something unclear in your mind: Do you want to do hypnosis, which includes amnesia, or do you want to be a performer who does a trick that involves amnesia.

If the former, I would respectfully suggest that you take a good training in hypnosis. You will be able to learn all you need to be successful.

If the latter, you're going to an incredible amount of work in order to create a very simple effect. Let a person see a card and let the others in the audience see the "same" (that is, a different) card--or rather, one that you claim is the same. Learning to present this trick effectively should take you less than an hour.Learning hypnosis, and then learning how to bring someone to a level where they forget a card, might take twenty to 100 hours of training followed by lots of practice and then you might only be partially successful.

I guess it comes down to you deciding what you want: do you want to be a hypnotist who entertains, or an entertainer who looks like he is using hypnosis? It's a lot easier doing the latter.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Feb 5, 2012 11:58am)
Dmkraig,

I think you may have missed his point. He wishes to create amnesia for the card for real. Yes he can use an out if that fails. The point is to get amnesia with the method shown in the video. There is no induction of hypnosis in the method so no need for 100 hours of hypnosis training. Amnesia can be done on the fly without it.

jakubr have you got Mind Eraser. Pretty much all of the tips you need to do impromptu amnesia for real are on there. If not then it seems you are doing Cerebral Steal, James Brown's version. In your first example you did the 'pop' bit and the timing could have been better. That said if you are not going to do the second phase I am not sure why you need the 'pop' bit.

I think your suggestions can be tightened up a little, made more meaningful, like you fully expect that card to be gone.

All in all I think you are doing great. Keep it up.

Anthony
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 5, 2012 1:53pm)
I am unclear. You want to use hypnosis to do a simple card trick?
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Feb 5, 2012 2:49pm)
Danny,

there are a number of amnesia effects that happen to use cards as the thing to be forgotten. Rather than giving the impression of amnesia the participant genuinely forgets the card.

Some have an out if that does not happen. Some do not.

Anthony
Message: Posted by: jakubr (Feb 5, 2012 3:28pm)
Dmkraig, I wanted to learn the effect in which I would be able to make another person genuinely forget the card, and that's what I was attempting is supposed to do. The card switch has also psychological reason, as far as I understand, their 'amnesia' is not going to last to long if I gave them the time to think, but when they I see the card, which they don't even recognize, they are then sure that they actually forgot it. At least this is how I understand it's working.

Anthony Jacquin, thank you for reminding me, I forgot to credit the author of this wonderful effect, it is James Brown's Cerebral Steal. As you say, it's waking hypnosis, so there's no need of induction. I didn't use 'pop' bit on the video performances, but I still experiment with it, so I left it in the 'patter', in case I wanted to do second phase afterwards. I also have Mind Eraser, and actually before starting learning I was considering those two. In the end I chose Cerebral Steal, as it seemed more direct, and didn't need 'weed off routines'.

After playing with this effect, I got more interested in the waking hypnosis and hypnotic presentation that can be done without induction. Is there any book or dvd you could advice me?
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 5, 2012 5:43pm)
It still sounds like you want to learn a trick of suggestion (not actually hypnosis) in order to do a card trick. Okay.

I know, the use of suggestion without induction is now called "waking hypnosis." In the past, waking hypnosis referred to having an induction followed by instructions to open the eyes and act alert while staying in a hypnotic trance. Definitions do change over time, and now a specialized use of suggestion is called waking hypnosis. Okay.

Whatever you want to call it, what you're doing reminds me of the "finger flingers" who would look down their noses at someone who used gaffed cards. That is, it sound like for you the method is more important than the effect. If that's what you care about, okay.

I guess I'm just silly, thinking that the methodology is less important than the effect and trying to get the best possible effect out of the simplest method. If you want to vote with the finger flingers, more power to you.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Feb 5, 2012 6:04pm)
In Ormond McGill's Encyclopedia, which is rather old, he refers to waking hypnosis and there is no mention of an induction. What period in history are you referring to dmkraig when saying waking hypnosis 'referred to having an induction followed by instructions to open the eyes'.

Any book references would be much appreciated?

Anthony
Message: Posted by: jakubr (Feb 6, 2012 8:42am)
Dmkraig, it's actually for the effect reason (not the method), that I'd like to perform it without the induction. Note that induction is not only the method but also part of the presentation. This is what other spectators will look at. And they will know that in the end if the target forgets the card it's through hypnosis. With waking hypnosis/suggestion, they will never know for sure, so it opens possibilities of different claims and different presentations. I think it would give me more room to dress the effect according to the character I build. That's why I'd like to perform it that way.

Is there any book that would focus particularly on the pure suggestion exercises, without induction?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 6, 2012 11:06am)
Quote:

On 2012-02-05 14:49, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
Danny,

there are a number of amnesia effects that happen to use cards as the thing to be forgotten. Rather than giving the impression of amnesia the participant genuinely forgets the card.

Some have an out if that does not happen. Some do not.

Anthony


I don't care WHAT grass skirt you put on it, this is a card trick in the end.

That is fine with me. I have nothing against card tricks, I do LOTS of them. I just don't call it hypnosis LOL.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Feb 6, 2012 12:50pm)
Can you do this one Danny?

Recap: Show them a card. Give it to them to hold face down. Suggest they cannot remember it. Ask them what it is? They cannot name it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 6, 2012 8:16pm)
YES there are many methods to do JUST THAT.

The easiest is of course a card switch where they really DO remember the card, but you have switched it so it LOOKS LIKE they forgot. SAME ending SAME EFFECT.

Usiing hypnosis to do a card trick is like driving arround the block to get next door.

By all means keep pretending this is a big deal though. Don't let me interupt.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Feb 6, 2012 8:53pm)
No switch. They hold the card they thought of and chose. The same card. They forget that card.

Can you do that?

Anthony
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 6, 2012 11:08pm)
Quote:

On 2012-02-05 18:04, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
In Ormond McGill's Encyclopedia, which is rather old, he refers to waking hypnosis and there is no mention of an induction. What period in history are you referring to dmkraig when saying waking hypnosis 'referred to having an induction followed by instructions to open the eyes'.

Any book references would be much appreciated?

Anthony


Yes. It was training with the group known as "Hypmovation" in San Diego during the 1970s. Be that as it may, the modern definition is what people are using.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 6, 2012 11:19pm)
Anthony, many years ago I remember reading that if you knew 100 ways to find a card but only one way to reveal it, it looked like you only knew one card trick. However, if you knew just one way to find a card but 100 ways to reveal it, it looks like you know 100 tricks.

To the audience, it doesn't matter if you make a switch or not. The effect is the same.

As I wrote, this arguments sounds like finger flingers who look down on anyone with a gaffed card.

Jakubr, the effect you're describing is one where, as you put it, "they will never know for sure [if it's hypnosis], so it opens possibilities of different claims and different presentations." Respectfully, if you use the right patter, the same thing is true with doing a simple card switch that doesn't depend upon mastery of hypnosis. You write it's not the method it's the effect that interests you, but you're saying that the only way to do this (that's the method) is via waking hypnosis. It's just not so, and I agree with Danny. It's a card trick that you want to make LOOK LIKE it's not a card trick. That is my favorite type of card trick.

This whole silly argument reminds me of some other websites that are dedicated to NLP where the NLP "experts" (really just IROBs: "I Read One Book" and now I'm an expert) discuss how DB uses NLP to achieve his effects and get very upset when I point out that he uses magic tricks and doesn't need NLP.

I just happen to believe in the concept of maximum bang for your buck: getting the most for the least. If you want to spend hours learning and practicing hypnosis to perform a card trick, by all means do it. I just believe it's so much easier to learn the card trick and then present it AS IF it were created via hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: jakubr (Feb 7, 2012 1:32am)
Dmkraig, I absolutely agree on the getting the most for the least, and try to follow it wherever I can. But for this effect, I think it wouldn't quiet work, at least in close-up setting. The difference is that, if you just use conjuring, you will end up with them saying they saw a different card (that's what happened to be even when I performed with waking hypnosis, and it didn't work). If suggestion however work, they just stay they, and they say, they don't remember it. Even just for theatrical reasons, I think it's much stronger, and that's why I think the effect not the method of hypnosis version is better.

DB, by the way did something similar, making people forget, what station of the Tube they want to get off at. And I'm pretty sure there was no DR there. But he would use any method as long as the final effect looks the way he wants. And that's kind of what I'm looking for with this 'card trick'.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 7, 2012 11:07am)
Quote:

On 2012-02-06 20:53, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
No switch. They hold the card they thought of and chose. The same card. They forget that card.

Can you do that?

Anthony


METHOD IS NOT RELEVANT! THEY don't know what method is used. Method ONLY matters to people like YOU. That is the point you always miss.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 7, 2012 11:10am)
I don't get this type of "entertainment" anyhow.

IF you want to do hypnosis then learn it and do it. If you want to do card tricks then do them. There are VERY easy ways to do the forget the card deal and people have done them for centuries. What does the method matter except to those who sell methods?

In the end regardless of what YOU think, the audience will see it as a card trick.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Feb 7, 2012 1:34pm)
In Kenton Knepper's "Time Machine," he reveals a way to make a person appear to forget his or her name. It's actually a "throw away" bit, but can be very effective.

The thing I'd ask, is the effect you want amnesia, or amnesia over a card? If amnesia, there are lots of techniques. See the booklet *Glemme*, for example. If it's a card effect, just do a card effect. Again, I agree with Danny. If you are doing a series of effects involving cards, people will see you as a card magician, whether you like it or not.

I'm not against amnesia effects. I use them when I do "Time Machine." Nor am I against inducing hypnotic amnesia, such as forgetting a number, as part of a hypnosis show. Look at it from the point of view of the audience, not your methodology. The focus on methodology, rather than effect, leads to wasted time and expressions of purity.

Show the audience a card. Then show the card to your assistant. Put the card down on the table. Ask the assistant if they remember the suit of the card. Then ask if they remember the number of the card, or if it were a face card. He responds, "I don't know. It didn't have a suit. It didn't have a number." Show the card to the assistant and they're shocked to see an ordinary card. This is easy to do with a card switch (with a blank) and seems to be amnesia. The audience will still think "card trick."
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Feb 7, 2012 2:43pm)
The other thing you may be forgetting or perhaps may not understand is (for the sake of argument) if you did indeed take the time and effort to learn hypnosis, it still does not guarantee that the spectator you are working with will accept the suggestion or be hypnotized. Hypnosis is by no means 100%, still leaving room for it not to work or play as expected, whereas doing the effect as magic or a card trick allows you greater control over the working and ultimately the results.
Message: Posted by: jakubr (Feb 8, 2012 1:41am)
Dannydoyle, do you think that just using the cards, even for a single effect, implies they will perceive it as a card trick? There is for example this 'Mind Eraser', where you give them the card to hold on to, chosen spectator shows the card to audience, and memorizes it, holds all the time, and you make him forget it. No switches, everyone saw the card from the beginning and can see it at the end. I don't think that audience would treat it as a card trick. Rather a trick with suggestion. I don't use cards almost at all, but for this effect, resources I had were only the ones involving card.

dmkraig, I'm more interested in amnesia effect than card amnesia effect. But the one without the induction. This book by Patrick Redford seems to be very interesting, thanks for a suggestion. And blank card is quiet interesting alternative. Thanks for those thoughts.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 8, 2012 12:45pm)
I think the SECOND you pull out cards, people think of it as a card trick. WHY USE CARDS? Be creative! Use something else!

IF you are going to use cards, why use a method that can screw up? You are getting SO worried about method that you don't seem to comprehend that the method when done right is NOT KNOWN to the audience!
Message: Posted by: jakubr (Feb 9, 2012 11:13am)
I don't know if the cards determine their perception of the effect that immediately. But I agree, it's better to avoid them, and that's what I generally try to do. It's just that I have very little experience with suggestion/hypnosis, so I wasn't sure how to build my own routine, and I decided to go for James Brown's one. If I knew how to create my own one, it sure wouldn't involve the cards. I was first thinking about something like making them write the word and then forget it for example. But I'm not sure how to construct it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 9, 2012 11:18am)
I don't think you know enough about hypnosis to create anything yet. You are better off doing it by other means, and telling the audience a lie anyhow.
Message: Posted by: jakubr (Feb 10, 2012 10:39am)
That's way I went for an effect of someone else, but I knew only those with cards. I'm still keen on learning at least the waking hypnosis, because I think it create quiet a lot of possibilities for mental effects.