In some chop cup routines the magician will take a shot glass, cover it with a silk, set the ball on the silk, cover it with the cup, lift the cup and the ball will be gone. Understanding the chop cup I know why this is done but from the audience perspective does this make any sense at all? Why bring in these props to make a ball vanish. The first time I saw this I assumed the ball would penetrate the silk and wind up in the glass. I was dissapointed when the silk was removed and the glass was empty. Am I making too much of this? Does the audience care? What do you think?

I don't like it either, I'd rather see the ball go through as well.

But this is not how the routine is defined, the ball that everybody expects to go through the silk vanishes and shows up somewhere else, while the chop covers the glass, then the ball penetrates the silk, and the cup and ended inside the glass.
I think the complete routine is very nice

That sounds better than the routines I've seen. In the routines I've seen after the vanish the silk is put away and the cup goes over the shot glass, removed with the ball appearing in the glass. Is the ball appearing in the glass any more mysterious then if it just appeared under the cup? Maybe I've just seen some bad routines.

Check out Larry Jennings's routine on World's Greatest Magic Chop Cup. I'm sure his routine is elsewhere also, but that is my reference.

Hudson.

Wsgumby that's how I've always seen it too.

It's performed like Wsgumby describes in Gary Ouellet's routine The Two Goblets, but it is logical in context. (The ball vanishes, reappears in the shot glass, then disappears from the shot glass - just prior to the finale; and the silk was introduced before this for another silk penetration effect.)
It's a small modification to successfully penetrate the silk during that sequence, but it took a while to get the handling right. You only have to perform one additional complete vanish afterwards then the ball can reappears in the shot glass, under the cup - right back in step with Gary's routine. But I don't care much for "small failures" during routines and will try to work them out - even in a great routine like The Two Goblets.

For the audience, it seems impossible that sleight-of-hand could be used to secretly put a ball under a cup AND into the glass, to do that would require something else. But, I'm personally biased and think the "ball under glass" is one of the nicest displays you can add to a cups and balls routine. Gary would even invert the shot glass with the ball in it to provide that great image of the ball under glass for the spectator's memory.

Set the silk on the table. You have a ball p***med in your right hand for example. Take your shot glass with your right hand, put it under the silk. In the meantime l**d the ball in the shot glass. Take the other ball, put it on the silk, cover everything with the chop cup. The ball penetrates the silk.

I've been working on that very approach Vayron, as follows:

The cup and known ball are already on the pad.

I have the silk (opaque), concealed ball, and a slender shot glass in right coat pocket.
I bring out all three bunched together with the right hand, f***** p***ing the concealed ball.
I place the silk in my outstretched left hand, palm up, elbow resting on table.
I set the shot glass mouth down on the pad with the right hand (concealed ball still p***ed).
Moving my right hand towards the left to arrange the silk on the outstretched left palm, I "accidentally" tip over the shot glass, leaving the mouth of the now horizontal shot glass aimed diagonally towards my right side.
After centering the silk on my left palm I do the following two movements simultaneously:

My left hand moves right, turning the silk over and down onto the shot glass, AS the right hand moves towards the tipped over shot glass to right it, simultaneously l***ing the concealed ball into the glass as it is momentarily grasped by the right hand and pivoted into the mouth down position once more. The horizontal shot glass is in perfect alignment with my right hand and forearm for this move because of the manner in which I knocked over the shot glass.

The simultaneous covering of the right hand by the silk coming down from the left masks the l***ing of the concealed ball.
Needless to say, practice is required to do this with no hesitation whatsoever, especially by the right hand and arm. The right hand must not linger beneath the down coming silk for even a fraction of a second.

The known ball is then placed on the silk covering the shot glass, ready for the penetration effect.

Driving to work this morning I was thinking about this. Placing the shot glass mouth down, then covering it with the silk might seem odd to an audience. Why would a magician do that? So I came up with this tweak:

I initially place the glass mouth up, silk on top, with ball on silk as is normally presented. Then as I am about to cover all with the cup I hesitate and ask aloud, "Why don't we make this a bit more challenging? Let's see if the ball can penetrate the hanky AND the shot glass." I say this as if it had never occurred to me to do it this way before this moment. The audience will see a "first". This give me a reason to turn the glass over.

What do you think?

Shouldn't this be in secret sessions?

Our friend is speaking of the logic in the sequence. Why should it be in the secret sessions?
It seems to me that this shows the necessity of scripting an effect for the audience to really receive the effect as it is presented, especially when what is seen can be interpreted in different ways. This is also the reason why metaphoric patters (as opposed to descriptive) are so well received by audiences. They are guided into a specific perception but misdirected by the images of the metaphor.

IMO, he clearly describes "how to" perform his idea. I guess it's just up to the individual as to what he wants to reveal. . .

I didn't like the fact that the ball failed to penetrate the silk handkerchief either.
Here is what I did that satisfied my need:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......rum=37&0
I put this in Secret Sessions because it includes specific handling and sleights that I don't want in an open forum. It took too much work to just give it away to the casual browser.

Thanks, but unfortunately I'm not allowed to view that yet.

I recall reading that Don Alan was not a big fan of the Jennings routine.

Don Alan and Larry Jennings were completely different in their performance styles...

Don Alan focused on being a somewhat offbeat comedic club and TV magician while Larry Jennings focused on technique, a la Dai Vernon...Jennings was a fervent Vernon devotee and disciple.

I've seen both do their cup routines and I think they're both great....just different...


But, as far as the paying publc in general would be concerned, my bet is that they would give a nod to Don Alan...

I learned the Larry Jennings routine in the 70s and have been performing it ever since. I have nothint to compare it to performace wise, but it continues to impress and be a highlight of my close up sets.

I have enjoyed bringing in the quiver coin purse to this routine, you can show the purse empty and then show that it jumped from the shot glass to the purse.