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gimpy2 Special user 960 Posts |
I build lots of stuff with baltic birch plywood but normaly skin everything in veneer before a finish. Getting ready to do some stuff that will be stained and finished over the birch itself. never had much luck getting a good stain result and the antique oil finish I like to use just soaks in and never realy turns out to good.
Been doing some reserch and its been sugjested that a thined coat of shelack is a good way to start and to use a wood dye as apposed to an oil base stain. Not sure what to use to get a smooth satin finish. Figured somebody in here would have some recomendations I could trust before I try to reinvent the wheel.
Gimpy
www.gimpysmagic.com |
Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Staining Baltic Birch is tricky, depending on how dark the stain is. Medium to dark stains tend to give a blotchy finish, but lately I've been experimenting with brush-on pre-stain wood conditioner. Better, but not perfect. For the record, these are oil based finishes. I've only used water-based dye once, but it was not on Baltic Birch.
You might have to experiment with the stain first to find what gives you the proper color and evenness that you want. Regarding the satin finish you want, there are a couple of options. Wipe-on Tung Oil gives me great results, but usually take several coats to build up a finish that rides above the surface. You can also use a poly finish. This will fill faster, and can be cut with mineral spirits to a wipe-on consistency. Don't spend the money on the canned wipe-on, when you can make your own. I often will use the thinned as a final coat, even when using full strength first. It's easier to control and no brushstrokes. Then, there is always the Poly-Shades stuff with stain and poly varnish in one. It rides on top for the most part. Several coats are usually recommended, but you can get it in a satin or gloss and buff as desired. If you really want to control the blotchiness issue, use a sanding sealer first, then the Poly-Shades stuff. None of it will soak in. Finally, any of these will benefit with a Carnauba Wax buffing, although that will shine up the surface, too. If you do use it, get the hard stick stuff (I got mine at Woodcraft and it lasts for years) and load up a muslin wheel. I have a large one screwed to a wood disc and then to face plate that I put on the lathe. Don't try to apply the wax directly to the wood. You can use the muslin wheel on a bench grinder, because if I recall, you don't use a lathe. I'm not sure the look you are shooting for, but for antique finishes, I've had good success by staining dark, then sanding down to expose highlight wood, then staining again with a lighter stain. This leaves the crevasses darker but still gives an appropriate color to areas that would normally show more wear.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Hi, Gimpy,
The boxes I made recently for Stevens Magic had a fair amount of Baltic birch, and I found that a gel stain worked really well on it, since it doesn't penetrate the wood. It took three coats (per the instructions), plus some urethane on top, but the finish looked really nice and deep. I also stained some poplar for our dining room (to match the existing cabinetry), and "discovered" that a sanding sealer does make a huge difference, even with the gel stain. I made my own with shellac and denatured alcohol. It's like the wood has nothing to say about the stain: it just sits there and lets you put the stain color on top of it. I think I'm hooked on gel stains -- at least for now.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
gimpy2 Special user 960 Posts |
Thanks for the tips and detailed instructions. To give a better idea of what I'm going for, This will be going on the new " Choppo" arm chopper. Been doing them in walnut with a maple inlay with an antique oil finish, but think I would like to do them in a more distressed antiuqe look. Thought now is to router out some grooves in the plywood to make it look like its several separate boards that make up the front and back panels. Add some distress marks mabey some worm holes. Will probably finish the edges with some hardwood strips.
Gimpy
www.gimpysmagic.com |
Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Sounds cool, Gimpy! It will look like an ancient torture device, and less like a magic prop. It will probably scare the crap out of some people with their arm in it!
Regarding sanding sealers, I've used 1) lacquer-based, which puts out some really bad fumes, and will positively eat some brushes, 2) water-based, which I did not like at all, and 3) oil-based, which I buy from Ace. That has been my "go-to" sanding sealer for about 35 years. It dries in about 2-4 hours, and sands easily. Not gummy like some can get. Just don't slop it on too thick. One coat is usually good enough, but you may want two on plywood edges. George, I haven't tried the gel stains yet, but I may just give it a shot. Do you brush or apply with a rag? What are the advantages of the shellac w/denatured alcohol compared to store-bought sanding sealer?
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Hi, Michael,
As far as the gel stain, I've been applying it with a rag just because I think it's a lot more controllable. You want a clean, lint-free rag, and just wipe the stuff on liberally to cover the surface. Then, with a second clean rag, wipe off the excess with the grain until the surface is almost dry. It takes a few trials to get the hang of it, but then you realize you can really see what it's going to look like later. I used three coats on the boxes I made for Joe Stevens just beause that's what it said on the can, but I found I did like the end result. What you want up front is to sand the surface really well; I used 150 or 180 grit first and then gave it a light pass with 320. I also found I did not need to sand between coats, probably because wiping the stain on helped to create a smooth surface. I already had a package of lint-free cotton painter's rags, so I just cut them up into strips and kept replacing them as needed. Gel stain does make a mess, so you'll want to use gloves; I bought a box of 100 at Costco and still have about half. I managed to get some stain on my arms, and one of the guys at work told me Goo Gone takes it right off. He was right. You can get a small can of gel stain at Woodcraft for about $8 and see if you like it. I don't know that there's necessarily an advantage to a shellac/alcohol mix over store-bought sealer - I found the formula in a book on wood finishing (same one I discovered gel stains in) and decided to try it. So far it works fine.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
I would like to say, I made an Abbott's Crystal Coin Ladder, from Neil Foster's model, some years ago. I used some left over Birch Plywood from Finland. I have to say it stained beautifully. I had never stained before, and it turned out very nice. There was no blotchy areas at all. I really love the wood grain of Birch, stained it looks beautiful. I used a reddish brown stain. I did not use any sealer on the wood.
My finishing book says to wet the wood, so I just quickly ran it under the kitchen faucet on time. Then wiped it off and laid it out to dry. If you hold the board of to look across the surface, you will see little hairs of wood stick up. These are then sanded off lightly with extra fine sandpaper. Not just tack the dust off, and apply your stain. You will see there are not any further hairs raised by the stain. When dry, apply your 1st coat of varnish. To answer your question on satin finishes after staining, the book I have says if you want a quick piano finish, then apply 2 coats of clear varnish, then a coat of satin. Sanding between coats of course. My book is from the early 1980's and there has been many changes to do the finish faster with the new all in on step varnishes and varnish combined. I have not experience with these new products. For what it's worth ... |
Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Thanks, George. I have no local Woodcraft. Lost that when I moved from Birmingham. There is a Rockler supplied store here, though. I'll check them. I see that Minwax makes this too, so it might be available in other places.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
Chance Wolf Inner circle 2425 Posts |
I have to agree with Bill. I have used Baltic Birch ply on countless props and have never had a problem with blotches or anything for that matter.
The only prep I do is to sand it with 220 grit or at times up to 320 and vaccum the parts before staining. No pre condition or anything. I use a folded paper towel for application of stain. I allow a 24 hour dry time. Sand lightly with 320 to remove "nerds" Then apply 2 laquer clear coats. Sand lightly with 320 to remove final micro "nerds" which happen due to the laquer. Apply final laquer clear coat. The only problem I can see, that you may have, is the quality of Baltic Birch varies. There are many manufacturers and whatever process they are using may be reducing the quality of the actual final birch veneer or it is crappy wood from the start. I hope this helps in some way. Chance
Creator of Wacky Wolf Productions & Fine Collectibles
A DECADE of building Magic and we're just getting started! http://www.wolfsmagic.com |
Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
I suppose "blotchy" was not completely accurate. I am just not a real fan of the grain patterns in Birch ply and prefer a more even finish, especially with a darker stain.
I recently made a box that was supposed to look old. It is made from Baltic Birch. I chose the technique I mentioned above to finish it, beginning with darker stains. But in doing so, I felt it necessary to play up the weathering and faux patina, and downplay the grain pattern. So in that case, I suppose achieving the desired finish on a wood species not typically associated with that look was somewhat outside the normal stain finishes one might shoot for under normal circumstances. But, I'll confirm the quality of the wood has seemed to be off lately, at least around here. Ever since the minor shortage of the good Baltic Birch a couple years ago, I've noticed the newer crop has more football patches, sometimes on both sides. This is not a problem for my usual work, as the finishes are painted, but would be an issue if staining. Structurally, the wood is sound... not soft core junk like can be found in the home improvement stores. My supplier does not carry Finnish Birch, which is considerably more expensive anyway. It is nice stuff, though. Regarding Bill's comment on wetting the wood... I have never done that, although I understand the reason for doing so. This happens to me when using a water base dye, and did when using the water base sanding sealer. That's probably why I did not like that sanding sealer. It required a lot more time sanding.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
gimpy2 Special user 960 Posts |
I also think I remember a thread on making props look old or aged. Cant seem to find it now even with the help of the search feature.
Gimpy
www.gimpysmagic.com |
George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
There's a really good article on gel stains in the current issue of Woodsmith (April/May 2013). It's only two pages, but includes a few things I didn't know.
We just got back from the local Woodcraft store, wheree they had a display of what you can do by using two different stains (great colors), and also on effects you can do with milk paint, including a gorgeous deep mahogany color with a black glaze over it. I bought small cans of the milk paint and will try it out over the next few days; I'll post photos if I like the results, otherwise I'll take the Fifth.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
TheRaven Special user 597 Posts |
I second the vote for sanding sealers which is what I use. I think the shellac idea is intended to server the same function -- seal up the grain. But I'm assuming sanding sealers are specifically designed for that purpose and so might do a better job of it. Not speaking from experience though. Stain is designed to enhance the wood's natural grain. If you don't like the grain, then you probably aren't going to like to enhance it.
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Gimpy, try searching the words "steam punk", I think that it was discussed under that term.
I just reread the OP question, and I come to think maybe the person is not sanding the wood down far enough. When I sand Birch, I start with a rough sandpaper like 60 grit grade and work all the way up to 220 grit. The description of having to fill the grain is what puzzled me. As when I sang birch, there is not little grain marks left, it is completely flat and grain free. The only grain is the flowing lines of the wood, but they are do not have any texture to them at all. Abbott's use to make all their props out of Finland Birch, and they did sand the wood, but only lightly, this left the little small grin marks as in Oak wood. Oak for some reason these little grain marks cannot be remove with sanding, so a filler is needed to make the surface perfectly smooth. This is not the same with birch. It can be sanded totally smooth. I once was making a cabinet to go below the bathroom sink, and I sanded the birch so smooth it actually started to shine. That time I went all the way up to 600 grit wet dry sandpaper. I also like when the ends of birch ply is stained, each layer of the plywood takes on a different shade. The point to this is you may not be sanding enough to get the surface prepared for finishing. Just thought I would mention this. |
AGMagic Special user Cailf. 775 Posts |
This is probably stuff that you know, but it is worth a read. http://view.woodworking-hub.com/?j=fecb1......1532&r=0
Tim Silver - http://www.facebook.com/pages/Magic-Woodshop/122578214436546
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. Visualize Whirled Peas! |
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