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KenRyan Elite user 465 Posts |
I've been working on Geoff Latta's A Trick With Three Coins and have finally gotten to the point where I can reliably produce the bottom coin from edge grip the way Geoff did it. I used Kainoa's "Coins On Edge" to learn how to do this. Now I'm wanting to take the edge grip thing a bit further (not in the context of ATWTC, but for other effects) and produce each of 4 coins starting in edge grip at the fingertips. The first one goes from the bottom as I've been doing. The subsequent coins would join the first in edge grip display, ultimately in a fan of coins.
COE doesn't really cover this from what I can find. There is one section where Kainoa describes what he calls the Reverse Edge Fan Production of Death." In that, you are already holding 2 coins with one in edge grip, and you produce that final coin into the fingertips the way I'm looking to do. So now I can do the first of a stack and the last. I'm looking for how to produce the middle coins - the ones where you'd still have at least one coin in edge grip and one displayed. Any tips on where to find some guidance on that? Thanks! Ken |
harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
I'm old school and can't eke up with names of grips.
8 years or so I began working on Giacoma Bertini's fan production
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
KenRyan Elite user 465 Posts |
Harris,
I saw a thread about Mr. Bertini's work and then saw a video from his DVD. It's AMAZING. If I hadn't temporarily put a ban in place for myself from buying new magic resources except to help me on what I am seriously working on, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Heck, I might buy it anyway. What do you think of of his stuff? Ken |
KenRyan Elite user 465 Posts |
Actually, I just found this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcJByK0UxUQ - and lo and behold, it's Giacomo Bertini!:-). THAT is what I'm trying to learn. So I guess I found who I need to study. I just bought the download of Revolutionary Coin Technique:-).
Thanks for the tip! Ken |
Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Bertini's work is superb! Well worth the investment. He is a tremendous worker, and I'm very thankful that Doc Rubinstein brought his magic to greater light and appreciation here in the States and around the world.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
Invisticone Regular user 132 Posts |
First time I saw Bertini's work I was floored.
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
This was written up (I believe) in the 1940's book by Arthur Buckley; Principles and Deceptions. If memory serves, it was a technique used by T. Nelson Downs to produce any number of coins called for at the fingertips in a fan display.
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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KenRyan Elite user 465 Posts |
JNeal - OMG you are RIGHT! Page 61-63. Thanks so much for pointing me there!!!
Ken |
JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
Lots of great nuggets in that book... sometime give the Allan Shaw coin production a try!
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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KenRyan Elite user 465 Posts |
I'll check it out. Thanks!
Ken |
harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
I still go back to Buckley's 1976 book P & D.
Bertini's stuff led me at first to say no way. Of course from the 70's I have said no way these hands could do that. Harris. Still too old to know it all
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
Giacomo Regular user Florence (Italy) 112 Posts |
Ciao everybody!
Sorry for my delay but I only saw today This production is based on my original technique, and at the time that I created it was an innovative technique. And will come out my book in English containing this technique soon... The DVD in English instead came out for the first time 10 years ago. This is my edge-grip production, as Harris rightly said, this in the video is my fan production JNeal: Please don't confuse the edge-grip position with the Palm Downs (or Homme Masque). About Arthur Buckley and Allan Shaw, they practiced with the Downs-HommeMasque Palm, them are two really very different things... The difference between the two positions (edge-grip and Downs palm) is fundamental. For example the extraordinary work of David Roth , it's for a large part on edge-grip, and as you know Roth is different from Downs, Shaw or Buckley, they are very different from each other... Ciao and soon! |
Labracabrador New user 15 Posts |
Ken: I played a little with Bertini's fan production technique and it seems like it is much better suited for larger coins. I was doing it with half dollars and it looked ugly (of course it might be the case that I just suck at it). When you use half dollar coins the fingers have to come unnaturally close to hold the coins, but if you switch to larger coins then the production looks amazing.
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KenRyan Elite user 465 Posts |
Thanks Giacomo!! Can't wait for the book.
That is very helpful. Thank you! Ken |
Dougini Inner circle The Beautiful State Of Maine 7130 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 10, 2017, Giacomo wrote: Wait...WHAT??? I thought the Edge Grip WAS the Downs Palm! This is where I get confused. It's like The Ramsey Subtlety vs. The Kaps Subtlety. Then ya turn the coin a bit, and ya have another one that MB likes. I gotta get DVDs of Michael Rubinstein's Coins Sleights encyclopedia. Vol 1 has the EG and DP explained. The difference is...what? One, I think is lower in the palm/fingers. Right? Doug |
tonsofquestions Inner circle 1802 Posts |
The Kaps Subtlety and Ramsey Subtlety are rather different - Kaps' had the coin in CP while Ramsey's has it it FP. But I agree with you on the "Liwag Subtlety" (as the third one you mentioned is sometimes called) being very similar to Ramsey's. Then again, subtle differences can sometimes be huge in magic.
For EG vs Downs, they're close, but again different. The general idea is the same, but with Downs, there's a third point of contact all the way at the palm, and in EG there are only two points, at the sides of the coin. In other words, the coin is significantly "deeper" into your hand. Depending on the size of the coin, this could be 0.5 to 1.5 inches (numbers are approximate). But the real kicker is that it gives your hand/fingers different amounts of movement in different ways, so it's worth of a unique name. Hope that helps clear it up. |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Edge Grip work usually requires less flexing of the third finger
The Ramsay idea was to use an object held at the fingertips as cover should any wise-acre catch a glimpse into your hand - so they could see an empty palm. Subtlty. The Malini (see his coins across) idea was to permit the underhand toss of coins from one hand to the other to let the audience see there's nothing held back at the fingers. Add a Blackout coin for even more fun.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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KenRyan Elite user 465 Posts |
My 2 pence on the Edge Grip thing.
My first experience with it was learning David Roth's Hanging Coins. For that version of EG, the coin is quite close to the fingertips. In fact the coin is as far out as is possible while still allowing you to close the thumb and middle finger tips together. When thumb and middle fingertips are not touching, the coin contacts the outer joints of those fingers/thumb (technically the distal interphalangeal joint). Kainoa Harbottle, on the other hand, has the coin much furthe in toward the palm. He (Kainoa) describes it like this: "What I am proposing is a slight shift in the definition of edge grip that I will maintain throughout the course of this book (woe to those who bypass introduction and theory sections—there may be much weeping and gnashing of teeth later): when I say edge grip, I am referring to what could be called a “deep edge grip” or a sort of “low Downs palm,” which is what figure 1.2 is modeling. If you place the coin in this position, you will realize that it is not being held by just two points (as in the first figure) but three: the lower phalange of the middle finger and the lower phalange of the thumb maintain most of the pressure while the pad at the base of the middle finger acts as a sort of safety bumper. The coin does not necessarily contact the interior of the thumb crotch; in fact, there is a very slight space between this area and the coin, which is what makes it distinct from Downs palm. Think of the contact points as forming a triangle rather than a full, fleshy arc." Hope that clarifies things. I'd be interested to know which version Giacomo uses? My 2 pence. BTW, I love and rely on the "Liwag Subtlety" (regardless of what its real name is) all the time. And though it is technically in the FP portion of the hand, the way the coin is secured is very different. If "Liwag Subtlety" is wrong, then I'll just start calling it the "MB Subtlety." |
NicholasD Inner circle 1458 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 7, 2017, JNeal wrote: Bertini isn't using the method in Principles and Deceptions. Buckley describes edge palm, which is different from Downs palm, while Bertini uses edge grip. |
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