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SimonCard Special user 601 Posts |
I'm also playing with riffle cull. I read steven's cull method from Vernon's revelation book but I don't find the technique comfortable to execute. After playing with different types of block off methods, I ended up with the current one I'm experimenting with. I'm not sure if this particular block off method is in print or not.
The biggest temptation I think is to make the decision to let it go when desired cards didn't appear soon, this can really slow down the process. I'm still hesitating, and it is very very hard to cope with. I think my relfex is just too long. I would like to exchange ideas with you who are also interested in riffle shuffle work. Thanks a lot. The following are my attempts to cull some high cards. https://youtu.be/Bp55L26EWzI https://youtu.be/ruUkCAjWZxM https://youtu.be/DGsC-E9F01k |
Bobbycash Special user Australia 694 Posts |
Yang,
I have played around with the cull and also read a fair bit about it. One bit of advice I'll give is that the two biggest tells with this type of work are: 1) hesitation in looking for the card 2) the performer staring at the deck with the upmost amount of concentration. IMO the second is the most common obvious and also IMHO the downfall of the technique. |
KentuckySlim New user 34 Posts |
I suggest you head down to the GamblingSpot (lower down on this forum) and repost this - lot's of guys down there are familiar with the work and will probably provide a more fruitful discussion.
Getting the move up to speed and limiting both the number of shuffles and the amount of time your eyes are glued to the deck are the big hurdles of riffle culling. Revelation is a great book, but I found the description of the Stevens Cull to be somewhat more difficult compared to other sources. I'm currently working through Karl Fulves' material on blocking off (his manuscripts on the subject can be hard to find and expensive, but I highly recommend them). He has a number of exercises designed to help speed up your reflexes around the glimpse and therefore eliminate the stare of death - but in the end it all comes down to practice. Marlo also has a lot of work regarding riffle culling - but his manuscripts are just as hard to track down as Fulves. Andrew Wimhurst talks about it briefly in Down Under Deals and I believe Glenn Bishop (who is active on the forum) also has a handful of ebooks detailing his own methods and there are other sources out there. A lot depends though on your end goal, for example: mastering the move for the move's sake or working toward a specific routine utilizing the method. Personally I have found working on riffle stacking to be a much more useful investment. |
SimonCard Special user 601 Posts |
Hi Bobbycash. I totally agree and I'm a typical ' staring at the cards with tongue sticking out' guy. I just find riffle culling one of the hardest things I ever tried. From what I read on this forum, it seems like no one can riffle cull with a regular shuffling speed and look totally natural. I personally have not used this in any routine yet but I think it could be a possible way out of any thing unexpected happens.
Hi Kentucky slim. I've been paying attention to Fulves manuscripts and Marlo's on eBay but the price always turns out ridiculously high. I'm curious if the blocking off method I'm using is in their prints. And I current don't have any good method to practice other than culling random high cards. |
Paul H Inner circle UK South Coast 1135 Posts |
Hi Simon/Yang, I have practiced this move regularly and use a kind of brute force Stevens cull to produce four of a kind from a genuine shuffled deck in order to make the practice more engaging. Its a peculiar fascination and like the centre deal there are very few tricks that utilise such a method. For your information, the most knowledgable exponent of the Stevens Cull and Stevens Control is undoubtedly David Benn and I believe he is planning to write about his findings and techniques in Volume 3 of his Experts at the Card Table. At least this is his intention currently. I have seen him cull and stack three aces for a five handed game and his technique is excellent. Regarding the Fulves riffle shuffle excercises and his blocking off technique, I would not worry about it. It looks to me as though you have learned the most efficient method. Fulves version is even more difficult in my opinion and not as usable. Fulves does write about the method you are using in relation to John Scarne. He suggests Scarne used the Stevens blocking off to fool the gangsters if you really believe that story. When it comes to applying the Stevens Cull to the gambling table, then you really do run into the problems described the Bobby Cash etc above.. I believe David Benn suggested that Stevens used it to good effect in the old game of faro for which he was a delaler. I can also see it being used as a way of locating and controlling a preset slug of cards in the deck or gathering together a pair at a pinch. But the idea of culling and stacking from scratch with this method seems less efficient, more cumbersome and more risky than other methods.
Paul |
SimonCard Special user 601 Posts |
Hi Paul, thanks for the useful information. At one point I had the impulse to get to Fulve's books no matter how expensive they are. What do you think of Marlo's work though, he has a trilogy of shuffle work and there is also lots of info in Marlo magazine 6?
It's good to hear that I might be doing the most efficient method. I would like to send you a pm just to make sure I'm doing what you said is the most efficient method. Thanks a lot. |
Paul H Inner circle UK South Coast 1135 Posts |
You are welcome and by all means shoot me a PM. I understand there is a wealth of info in those Marlo magazines but don't own any unfortunately. I have the first two riffle shuffle manuscripts by Marlo and there is nothing in them that addresses the Stevens cull as far as I am aware.
Paul |
PaulIngram New user 63 Posts |
Hi Simoncard, I've been informed by someone in the know that S. Forte thinks this king of thing is an exercise in futility. Personally, I think it always looks exactly like the operator is staring at the cards for purposes of location and control. Of course, that's exactly what you are doing. For some further info have a look at the 3 DVD disk set by James Swain where he demonstrates a method of Forte's using a break and push through shuffle.
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TH10111 Regular user 155 Posts |
This method of culling certainly has its limitations, but if it could be done by feel then this would eliminate the need to stare at the deck.
For example, if the desired cards had their corners shorted; by adjusting your shuffling technique such that the inner corners of the cards are being riffled off of the thumb, then you could detect the short cards as they drop with the card underneath. Then the blocking off could occur and the process repeated. |
Paul H Inner circle UK South Coast 1135 Posts |
Th10111, that is an interesting idea. However, in my experience I have found there are better, more efficient ways of using a gaffed deck to secure target cards.
Paul, by and large I do agree with the Forte view especially when applied to cheating. For gambling and magical demonstrations I think it has some limited applications. I guess it really does depend on what you are trying to achieve. Paul |
SimonCard Special user 601 Posts |
Hi PaulIngram: I remember reading an old thread that Forte and Doc practiced riffle culling for some time but didn't achieve what they expected so they gave up. Their standards are to make it applicable in money involved games. In that senario, I kindda agree that this kind of technique is not practical. However, standards in magic performances are not that stringent. Martin Nash used the riffle cull to cull a card the spectator freely named as part of his routines. I believe Andrew Wimhurst also has a routine that uses Steven's cull.
Hi TH10111: Thanks. Corner short is a great idea, which leads me to think that edge marks could also help a lot. Basically you have the general info before you start riffling, which could greatly reduce the attention and hesitation, and edge marks can also be put in real-time. |
TH10111 Regular user 155 Posts |
Paul H, I agree, if you are going to gaff a deck, something like strippers would be a much easier option!
SimonCard, edge markings are potentially a better way to go, since you are right that something like a nail nick could be put in whilst the deck is in use. |
James F Inner circle Atlanta 1096 Posts |
Just as on outside perspective, as I have no experience with this, this looks pretty good. I mean the shuffles are pretty slow but with more practise this could be useable.
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furmanmatt Loyal user New York 217 Posts |
The most amount of cards I ever cull is 4. I casually spread showing they are all mixed, use Marlo's technique, and it is done in a flash.
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FalseDeal New user 76 Posts |
Quote:
On Jun 29, 2017, furmanmatt wrote: Cool story. This video is about riffle culling on the table. |
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