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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
As Dick Smothers used to say to Tommy. "That wasn't a compliment". I'm sorry.
Seriously, I don't wan't to get into the whole thing about magicians knowing their history. Or even Mr Townsends knowledge of magic history, which I think is a bit deeper then you appear to believe. Or even the notion of giving little "history lessons" about magic while presenting it, which seems odd to me. I do wonder this however. Do you honestly believe there have been more books written about magic than any other art form? more than painting, or music or even literature itself? Is that what you just said in that post above?
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Where to begin?
Perhaps with the signature: “Indubitably, Magic is one of the subtlest and most difficult of the sciences and arts. There is more opportunity for errors of comprehension, judgment and practice than in any other branch of physics”. William S. Burroughs 1914-1997 American Writer " This seems more the sort of thing Aleister Crowley might write than William S. Burroughs. Though if you are using the signature to demonstrate how fiction can serve more efficiently than history, I like the example.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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pikacrd Veteran user Florida 387 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-11 14:17, Vandy Grift wrote: No need to be sorry sir as you are entitled to your opinion of the world as you see it as I am mine. As to the question of books about the arts I should have been more specific and stated performance art and in that case yes I do believe exactly as I have posted.
“Indubitably, Magic is one of the subtlest and most difficult of the sciences and arts. There is more opportunity for errors of comprehension, judgment and practice than in any other branch of physics”. William S. Burroughs 1914-1997 American Writer
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
I wish I knew how to verify that. I would be very surprised if that were true. Do you consider music a performance art?
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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pikacrd Veteran user Florida 387 Posts |
How about this one for its replacement Mr. Townsend.
Magic: The erroneous misperception of reality. I think it should fit you quite nicely.
“Indubitably, Magic is one of the subtlest and most difficult of the sciences and arts. There is more opportunity for errors of comprehension, judgment and practice than in any other branch of physics”. William S. Burroughs 1914-1997 American Writer
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pikacrd Veteran user Florida 387 Posts |
Yes Music is a Performance Art.
“Indubitably, Magic is one of the subtlest and most difficult of the sciences and arts. There is more opportunity for errors of comprehension, judgment and practice than in any other branch of physics”. William S. Burroughs 1914-1997 American Writer
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pikacrd Veteran user Florida 387 Posts |
Performance art is art where the actions of an individual or a group at a particular place and in a particular time, constitute the work. It can happen anywhere, at any time, or for any length of time. Performance art can be any situation that involves four basic elements: time, space, the performer's body and a relationship between performer and audience. It is opposed to painting or sculpture, for example, where an object constitutes the work.
The term Fine art was first coined in 1767 and refered to the arts that were "concerned with beauty or which appealed to taste". (S.O.E.D 1991)
“Indubitably, Magic is one of the subtlest and most difficult of the sciences and arts. There is more opportunity for errors of comprehension, judgment and practice than in any other branch of physics”. William S. Burroughs 1914-1997 American Writer
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-11 14:43, pikacrd wrote: I can still recall the brief discussion with Paul Harris about this very subject back in 87. The look on his face when comparing magic with someone standing in a bucket of water. For reference here is something on performance art: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_art I stay with the position that magic is very much like performance art. Music itself is an art, and traditionally is one of the performing arts, like theater. The notion of performance art is rather new and even folks like Alice Cooper and David Bowie have stayed clear of that side of things. Perhaps Laurie Anderson has come close to that aesthetic in hew work. Michael Moschin also comes close with his juggling performances. I'll ignore the ad hominem comments as I'm pretty sure we have not met. It's fine if we disagree about some things. Would you care to offer a cogent argument to support your perspective? Posted: Aug 11, 2005 3:11pm ----------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2005-08-01 08:44, onezero1 wrote: Let's get to the heart of this matter. Do you perform as a Vulcan? http://fixedreference.org/en/20040424/wi......ar_Trek) Who is this a "comedown" for? They have no background in magic and if anything need to come down to their reality. The history of magic is part of your reality, not theirs. Perhaps you could discuss something you have in common with them instead so you could both benefit?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
I am going to take this in my own direction, I have read here many times that magic is about entertainment, or to mystify with a story. That method is only a part of the effect. I agree with the simplified version I used.
Now think of music. Have you heard a spoken word version of a song? I find it abhorent mostly. I however like rap to a point. I think we can all see that music and songs and tastes of listeners varies greatly. I know people that get visually angry when they hear rap. Does that make rap bad or an incorrect use of a beat or the music used for the words? perhaps to you individually, but obviously not to everyone. Onezero1 (Is that binary for something?) has taken a step that many magicians have not. he has made his magic more than "trickery", Brought something else into his show. This deserves more than a knee jerk reaction of "I don't see the need" or "I don't like it". We do not have to like it, now do we. I do not like the patter and stories used in many of the videos and books that I use to learn my magic. That doesn't make it bad, just something that I don't like. Having said that, I would hope that everyone on this forum knows enough to take what they read here with a "Grain of salt". Don't stop doing what you enjoy because someone you don't know does not enjoy what you do. Give the spectators a little story that may make the magic more layered and you have done more than many. I would only add this; your approach should focus on the audiences interests, you know your audience better than anyone else here. Perhaps there is a way to bring the story into the magic rather than after? Tell the story of so and so magician who created the effect while your doing it? Possibly turning it into a part of the act than a lecture at the end? Nothing wrong with your way that I see. Just an Idea. I always like to fiddle with my approach to anything, you may stumble on to a brilliant show. Who knows you may have done so already. It sure does seem to get grumpy in here sometimes don't it?
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-11 15:57, Josh Riel wrote:... Give the spectators a little story that may make the magic more layered and you have done more than many. No argument against from me, just not so sure there is much on our side of the mirror that is useful or even interesting to our audiences. This card trick was invented by a pipe fitter? This coin trick was invented by a greengrocer who also liked ballroom dancing? This routine came to use from a guy who was also a policeman? My feeling is that the glamor of magic may in part depend upon some distance between the world of real people and books and the everyday lives of the audience that gets to enjoy the performance.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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pikacrd Veteran user Florida 387 Posts |
Quote:
My feeling is that the glamour of magic may in part depend upon some distance between the world of real people and books and the everyday lives of the audience that gets to enjoy the performance. And that is the beauty of this board. Up until this point I just thought that you were a name dropping arrogant, but now you have turned the corner in my mind stating what your opinion is rather than what is fact. I also agree a large part of the beauty of magic is the distance between Magician and Audience, but when close up why not be close up and tell as story or provide a bit of history and insight to those who ask about it. Look I am not saying that you should break into effects by giving a bland vanilla description of the effect and who created it; but why not impart some of the history if the timing is correct, it can has added additional levels of entertainment for my audiences. You stated that you are not so sure that there is anything on our side of the mirror that is useful or even interesting to our audiences, I say that the stuff on our side of the mirror is exactly what is interesting to the audience and that is why they pay to come and see us perform or pay to have us perform for them at there venues. Most of my clients express a personal fascination with magic, a lot of them have even spent time trying to learn a thing or two for themselves so there is a fascination at least on some level with a lot of the audiences out there even if it is nothing more than a fascination with the skill that it takes to perform magic. Cheers to you. Kris
“Indubitably, Magic is one of the subtlest and most difficult of the sciences and arts. There is more opportunity for errors of comprehension, judgment and practice than in any other branch of physics”. William S. Burroughs 1914-1997 American Writer
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Kris,
I speaking only for myself. And you are probably a much better magician than I am. I think when you introduce talk of other magicians and the history of magic it detracts from the magic you may be performing at the time. This is just me speaking and only my opinion of course, but I believe that there does need to be a wall or a "frame" or a mirror if you will, set up between the audience and the magician. It's is true that layman are curious about methods etc. But you must have found even in your own experiences that when methods are revealed the magic is lost. Magic exists only in the minds of the spectator. You can't do "real" magic. You know what your doing, methods etc. they don't. But proprely presented, they get to experience the magic that you know dosen't exist. That's why some people hold the belief that anything that takes away from that magic diminishes the entire thing. So saying "this trick was invented by" or "so and so taught me this" or "the first man to perform this trick was so and so" can lead to a diminshment(is that a word) of the magical experience for the audience. It tells them that you aren't magical or your props aren't magical, but that it's all trickery and puzzles. Trickery and puzzles aren't really magical. This is got to be one of the hardest things in magic. Going from presenting tricks to performing magic. Know what I'm saying? Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-11 16:18, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I agree completely. However presentation could alter the blase' history lesson. I think of J.R.R. Tolkien while I type this. He wrote a story starting with a most unimpressive hobbit, and turned it into something of interest (To me at least). I am not sure that a good idea is to give heartless details.... but with a litle art you could make it meaningful. How? is a more difficult question, why? could even be harder. But taking Mr. Vernon for example; unless I am mistaken he also used to cut sillouettes, at one time he turned down an offer to do a show for a queen of somewhere(?) to do a job cutting. Perhaps you could make that part of the story if you could find an effect to fit. (I appologize for inaccuracies, I read that story a long time ago). Houdini is easy as he is known for escapes, however he is used too often in my mind. I think you could make it relevant, and even magical. At least it would be unusual.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-11 16:50, pikacrd wrote: I agree, Kris. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I happen to disagree about the stuff on our side of the theatrical frame or mirror.
In my humble opinion, the lay audience may be intrigued about what they imagine is on our side of the mirror, yet not interested in the actual facts of the matter. To that end, I suggest telling them a story that comes out of Lieber or Hoffmann as opposed to discussing our actual texts, magic shops and mentors in all their everyday human condition. Were we even to present half truths and allusions as opposed to full and honest history we may as well offer a tale made of whole cloth. Again my opinion. Others are free to tell tales or our greats as they see fit. They will be tales none the less. My suggestion to craft those tales and leave out the feet of clay stands.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
I respect a person who can respectfully disagree with me. Which you do, Jonathan. Thankyou. I hear what you're saying, definitely. But I respectfully disagree.
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handa Inner circle Pittsburgh, PA 1357 Posts |
Good or bad, what is commonly called "reality television" is a good demonstration of what we can do as magicians.
Give them a glimpse at what we want them to see. It is real for the camera at that moment, but may not be the total story. I can talk about my favorite card effect, and even mention the name of it and the performer, without either divulging the method or going into his habits related to wine and women. I don't think, however, that there's any problem mentioning that a performer has another vocation or avocation. It somehow adds to the human drama. Yes, it makes us less mysterious to acknowledge a history to a particular effect, but maybe it makes us a bit more interesting and likable. I'll admit that I haven't read many posts about Criss Angel's series, but I will say here that I enjoy how he makes each episode more of a human drama than the presentation of a bunch of tricks. And I'll go out on another limb and say that many a magician--especially close up performers--could benefit from learning more about the art of conversation and incorporating conversational techniques into his/her character instead of memorizing more "patter." Just my framing of reality. View it from your perspective, and it may look a bit different than my view. Chris |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-11 22:04, magicalaurie wrote: If you guys say it's the stuff on our side of the mirror that audience is intrested in, and pays to see... All you're saying is that most people would rather watch the Masked Magician than Siegfried and Roy. That more people would rather watch a lecture about the history and methodology of magic that watch David Copperfields show. Dosen't bode well for magic when magicians themselves decide that the tools and methods are what interest the audience and not the magic itself. Why not just do a show the way a lecture is given then? Do a trick, break it down, give a little history and explain the workings. Would that be an ideal show in your opinion?
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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pikacrd Veteran user Florida 387 Posts |
Vandy,
Great post. As far as being a better magician than anyone I am not so sure about that, I have never entered a competition and I probably will never, I am quite content doing the type of work that gets me hired and believe you me I am no magicians, magician. Much like you I feel that a lot of the time there needs to be that wall, frame or mirror but I also think that my audiences are very intelligent and understand that it is a skill or an art much like a fine painting that is none the less amazing. I have always made it a point in my magic to make the work as amazing as possible and to build that moment of wow in my work, but at the end of the day I realize that I do not want people walking away thinking that I have special powers I want them to view it as a craft a skill that has a very amazing quality. Now I do not present myself as a puzzle maker or a trickster but rather an entertainer I just use magic as the medium for that. I would say that the magic is 25% of the work 75% of it is the emotion that is created while working the 25%. I guess what I am saying is that I am a firm believer that you need to communicate with the audience especially in a close up environment, and if that communication has a story or shares some of the history that I for one find fascinating about our art and craft than so be it as long as it has a point that makes the magic stronger. I appreciate your post and defiantly understand what you are saying. Take care, Kris
“Indubitably, Magic is one of the subtlest and most difficult of the sciences and arts. There is more opportunity for errors of comprehension, judgment and practice than in any other branch of physics”. William S. Burroughs 1914-1997 American Writer
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Kris,
I hear you. Believe me, I don't have the answers, I'm working really hard just to be able to do tricks. Forget magic. But of course I think a lot about magic and how I like to see it and how I hope to ultimately be able to present it. The best magic I've seen has been that which leaves me in awe and left with a feeling of magic. Of course I know that magic is and art and a skill and those that present it aren't doing "real" magic, but it sure can feel that way when it's done right. The great magicians I've seen, the ones I really enjoy don't really dilute the magic with history and background. I've never really seen a good magician do the things that are talked about on this thread. It's very hard to explain, some magicians can do something flourishy or display overt skill and still maintain a magical feeling. Or talk about an aspect of magic that layman wouldn't understand without ruining the magical experience. I have an aversion to the "history lesson" idea and I think it must be at the molecular level. It just seems odd to me. It bothers me in a way I can't really explain other than to say it feels wrong. It introduces something to the spectator that really has no place in the presentation of magic. Methods, history, etc are of intrest to magicians not layman. Not on any meaningful level. I like Bill Malone alot. I don't really get a magical feeling when I watch him. He comes across to me as very skillful and fun. And yes entertaining. I enjoy his work alot. Now some other guys, whom I know to be skillful and fun can also come across as magical, really magical. I think it's magicians pleasing themselves when they introduce their own intrests of magic into presentation. I think it makes an assumption of the audience that they love all the aspects of magic like we do. I really don't think they do. I think they just want to experience the wonder of magic. There are many approaches to magic and many opinions. These are only my own. Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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