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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 2:44pm
To keep this hypothetical, I will omit any name calling and get us started with the simple proposition that... Let's say you wanted to join a group that had a public policy on ethics like the following:
Our group recommends that all magicians adhere to the following code of ethical conduct and that its members;
1) Oppose the willful exposure to the public of any principles of Magic in general or the methods employed in any magic effect.
2) Display ethical behavior in presenting magic to the public and in conduct as magicians, including not interfering with or jeopardizing the performance of another magician through personal intervention or the unauthorized use of another’s creation.
3) Recognize and respect the rights of the creators, inventors, authors and owners of magic concepts, presentations, effect and literature, and their rights to have exclusive use of, or to grant permission for the use of by others of their creations.
4) Discourage false or misleading statements in advertising products or actions pertaining to the magical arts.
5) Discourage advertisement in magical publications for any items for which the advertiser does not have commercial rights.
Which does read well and seems to have positive intent.
You then discover that the group has lauded members who have taken other people's work into print, had the work published and done nothing to address the matter. Clearly they would stand by and allow such a thing to happen to you too. What then?
* Caution: Keep this discussion to your course of action as to joining them or forming an opinion of them. No name calling here please!
Would join them and share your secrets with them?
Would you join them and treat the organization as a social club and keep your secrets to yourself?
If you were already a member and then discovered such a pattern of behavior in a club you attend, What would you do?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Phaedrus
Loyal user
Mexico City
212 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 2:55pm
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Would join them and share your secrets with them?
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If they publicly promoted a code of ethical conduct, but privately violated it, I would feel that they are hypocrites. Since their behavior represents a betrayal of sorts, a violation of trust both towards their members and towards the magicians affected, I don't think I would want to have anything to do with them.
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Would you join them and treat the organization as a social club and keep your secrets to yourself?
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Since they have already proven themselves to be hypocrites, joining them would itself be an act of hypocrisy on my part. I think this would have to be considered a case of, if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
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If you were already a member and then discovered such a pattern of behavior in a club you attend, What would you do?
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I would need a little more information. At what level are these transgressions taking place? Do I have the power to make changes from within, or would I have more influence by quitting the club and making known my reasons for leaving?
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 3:06pm
For this hypothetical in the third case let's presume you are just a rank and file member and not a high ranking officer in the organization. You attend the meetings and socialize and enjoy the lectures and yearly convention. Were you to leave, you expect that your absence might be felt by some with whom you socialize yet not disruptive to the organization's function or the comfort of your peers.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Vandy Grift
Inner circle
Milwaukee
3505 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 3:22pm
This hypothetical happened to me for real. My case was like the third example;
"If you were already a member and then discovered such a pattern of behavior in a club you attend, What would you do?"
I really haven't figured out what to do, I guess for now I'm at the point where I treat them the organization as a social club and keep my secrets to myself. I've never created anything that anyone would want to steal. But I don't necessarily share other types of knowledge that I do possess. (things that others have taught or told me). I've never asked for a secret from anyone at our club and I've never given one. It's definately a social club. Whatever I've learned there in the way of secrets was taught by various lecturers.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Patrick Differ
Inner circle
far enough south to surprise you
1492 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 5:13pm
If a group allowed this type of behavior, I wouldn't join them. I wouldn't share anything with them. Finding them untrustworthy, I don't think that I would want to socialize with them either. If I was already a member, it would be "Adios."
However, I wouldn't just throw both ends of the rope to them. Nor would I react blindly nor swiftly, without giving them a chance to improve, no matter what level I've achieved in the group. I would surely tell them why.
A group that agrees to abide by rules of conduct should also need something in writing that discribes the consequences for infractions. The consequences would need to be fair. And they would need to be enforced, otherwise the whole idea crumbles. That has my interest.
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 5:54pm
Please note that the ethos as written is a recommendation and not a term of membership/inclusion. Does this change your feelings on the matter?
Also, what if the most the group could to for negative consequences is temporarily eject an offending member?
My thoughts on the matter tend toward rewarding good behavior. Then again this is a hypothetical organization and so I'm wondering what sort of rewards might make a difference that encourages "good" behavior?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dennis Michael
Inner circle
Atco, NJ
5972 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 5:57pm
When you get large numbers together, this stuff does happen. Your right it does read well.
First is is done knowingly or is it done without knowing the rules are being broken?
The right thing to do is have the Sgt of arms pull them asde and "fact fined". After through investigation, give them a choice stop or leave the group.
Keep in mind we are not lawyers, and if they signed an agreement, and that agreement stated the action which would be taken, there is no recourse.
One could even have degrees of action, 1st-verbal warning, 2nd-written warning then 3rd-expulsion. The old "three strikes and you're out" philosophy.
You could tar and feather them (just kidding.) It's an ethical situation. One needs to know strick rules and actions before administering any action.
Dennis Michael, Atco, NJ (856)768-2281
KIDabra Chapter #1
Facebook
Email: DennisMichael@KIDabra1.org
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Frank Tougas
Inner circle
Minneapolis, MN
1712 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 6:13pm
Why do I get the idea that at the end of this intellectual exercise will we be told the group is the IBM or SAM or Genii or Magic Magazine?
Hypotheticals are usually used in debate to get "the other guy" to say something with which he can be trapped at a later time. Remember people, ethics are different than law, ethics cannot be "enforced" nor should they be. They are a set of principles that are agreed upon by all parties in order to avoid unnecessary conflict and hard feelings. Ethical codes are broken with abandon all the time, even by people who claim foul when their property has been tromped upon.
Give me a real ongoing situation and I'll be glad to offer my opinion, for whatever it is worth. (Usually what you paid for it). All these hypotheticals or artificial "classroom-like" situations to ponder are at best a chance for people to pontificate and at worst agenda driven.
Frank Tougas
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 6:27pm
The only trouble I see with this as a hypothetical is that it really describes all of the organizations at some point or another in their development.
The past five years have seen some amazing changes in the national and international clubs.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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Dennis Michael
Inner circle
Atco, NJ
5972 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 6:59pm
Frank, my thoughts exactly.
In a conversation with Denny Hanney, I would say the difference between todays generation and our generation was that morality was a major topic in our family lives, now it seems, morality concepts have changed and with it so has ethics.
Individuals are quick to judge without gathering the facts.
I thought Denny didn't charge me for a book I got at MAES so I called him and asked him if the figure was right. It was correct and he commented that a person would do such a thing in today day and age, call a magic dealer to make sure that dealer didn't cheat himself out of money. It didn't dawn on me until he made that statement. Would today's youth do that? I can't answer that.
Dennis Michael, Atco, NJ (856)768-2281
KIDabra Chapter #1
Facebook
Email: DennisMichael@KIDabra1.org
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 7:08pm
This hypothetical is about something in a condition as described today, and a discussion of both how attractive it is as is, and what might make it more attractive. Carrots not sticks. What might make things better? Or is what is stated above sufficient for folks?
We've had over a century of handwringing over sanctions and no significant progress on that front. We can plainly see the net result of taking that path. Instead, I see moving toward an environment that rewards ethical behavior as a worthwhile exploration.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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jimgerrish
Special user
East Orange, NJ
749 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 7:59pm
I used to bring my Wiz Kid group to IBM and SAM conventions and we were often also invited to local ring meetings, etc. Before each such visit, I would get them together and warn them that "the people who can LEAST keep a secret are magicians." If they (the Wiz Kids) kept their mouths shut and listened, they would learn hundreds of secrets by just hanging around with these other magicians, but under NO CIRCUMSTANCES were they to even get in a conversation with a non-Wiz Kid performer about any of our original Wiz Kid effects. I told them, no bragging, no one-up-man-ship, no "proving that they knew how a trick was done by revealing the secret," and so on. They were free to collect all the secrets they could, but I expected them to not reveal a single one of our original Wiz Kid secrets.
This was years ago, in the 1980's and early 1990's. But it is sadly still true today and the current Wiz Kid Director (Frederick Goode - former Wiz Kid who still remembers my lectures on this topic) still has to caution the Wiz Kids whenever they mingle with other magicians. I don't think our Kids are any better and I am positive that without these cautionary lectures, they would engage in the same kinds of ego "trips," but by talking about it beforehand as well as discussing it after the visit, they seem to be among the few magicians I trust to actually keep magic secrets.
Jim Gerrish
http://www.wizkidzinc.com
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Patrick Differ
Inner circle
far enough south to surprise you
1492 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 8:09pm
Ahhh...I get it. Consequences for negative actions (failures) would be easy to spell out because our society is structured so. "Three strikes and you're out" is our standard procedure. And it's gotten us to here...so far.
Your ethical proposal is inclusive of all the topics and concerns we've had. As written, it lacks nothing. I can't add to it now. The only way I can think of making it better is to actually run with it...put it into action. Real time applications are the only way to work the bugs out of a plan, if it has any.
Consequences for positive actions (successes) are equally well known, but not often spelled out. This is the other side of the coin. Such consequences typically include promotion, increased privilege, and increased responsibility. And while negative consequences are often spelled out to the letter as procedures, positive consequences are often only established as precedent. That's the difference between the carrot and the stick.
What do you suggest regarding establishing such precedents? Or would you just let them form by themselves?
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jimtron
Inner circle
2026 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 8:15pm
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I wonder if most "exposure" is via legal means; ie, books, DVDs, effects sold in magic stores, and forums like this one (especially Secret Sessions). I'm not saying that's good or bad, just that if a magician wants to keep his secrets secret, putting them on the market or in a book or DVD or Secret Sessions isn't the way to go. If you don't mind that thousands of other people will learn the secret, then no problem.
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evolve629
Inner circle
A stack of
3838 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 8:23pm
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On 2005-09-12 18:13, Frank Tougas wrote:
Hypotheticals are usually used in debate to get "the other guy" to say something with which he can be trapped at a later time. Remember people, ethics are different than law, ethics cannot be "enforced" nor should they be. They are a set of principles that are agreed upon by all parties in order to avoid unnecessary conflict and hard feelings. Ethical codes are broken with abandon all the time, even by people who claim foul when their property has been tromped upon.
All these hypotheticals or artificial "classroom-like" situations to ponder are at best a chance for people to pontificate and at worst agenda driven.
Frank Tougas
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This is so true... I remembered that I hated going to "ethics" class. We all knew that what could be done and what couldn't be done in each of our professional fields back then. The hypotheical questions are there to raise any red flags and then its consequences when it's violated. Nonetheless, they had to be drilled into each of our brains so that the grad school can pass/keep its credential.
One hundred percent of the shots you don't take don't go in - Wayne Gretzky
My favorite part is putting the gaffs in the spectators hands...it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling inside! - Bob Kohler
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 8:57pm
Hmmm I hear a "got-you" type concern from some in this thread... There is a game section in the book Games People Play on something called "NIGYSOB". That game is not going to be useful here.
Folks, I already know from personal experience some of what can happen in an unethical society. I already know what the mistake of one can do when the community does not act to at least preserve its ethical stance on secrets. The quote about evil flourishing given only the passive acceptance and silence of good people comes to mind. Knowing that, it seems sensible to discuss how to choose good options when faced with choices. We already know what happens when folks sit back and do nothing. The net result is an art which now lags its culture by a good generation, between twenty and fifty years behind the times. Imagine an art where its practitioners expend more efforts dumpster diving into the trash bins of those who left us over a hundred years ago without access to their works. Why do you think they left us like that? Most simply they knew their peers were busy making bad choices (copying) and not making good choices. My investment and wager here is that folks are not sure of know how to find or make good choices. To that end, I'm up for discussing ethics. Of course there will be some who make choices to disrespect the wishes of inventors. The question is not how to stop them, but how we wish to treat them once we know how they choose. The issue as I see it is not where we were but where we want to go.
Again addressing the personal issue that brought magic's ethical dilemmas to my attention, I simply choose to ask for a word of honor regarding material and have not offered my works to any who have demonstrated a lack of basic human respect for me. That's it. If a stupid trick of mine is more important to someone than my feelings as a person, then I have to respect their priorities and not expose them to my work which is how is sometimes process my feelings and how I communicate some about what I am feeling. Anyway that is the extent of my "axe to grind".
I have lain down my axe so to speak as token of good faith that we can get along better. What do we need from each other in order to do better?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13337 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 10:41pm
If we are not prepared to sacrifice anything for the things we believe in, then we do not believe in the of virtues of responsibility and honour. If we want to persuade others to subscribe to our ethics I think we must resign or not join and let everyone know why and what it is we are sacrificing in doing so. The less we are paired to sacrifice for our beliefs the less important they are, and the less important they appear to others.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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Ignore me...
Loyal user
230 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 10:44pm
Well, Jonathan, in any group of sufficient size, some folks will always behave badly. If the group's charter is toothless, then nothing can be done. If those who are in charge don't take action to preserve the charter, nothing can be done, unless the charter also has provisions to remove those who do not act to preserve the charter.
Would I join a group, ostensibly magic-related, which didn't share my aims? So far, no. I view many of the current groups (IBM/SAM/etc.) as being primarily for social opportunities; even the PEA isn't what it used to be, and that shift away from actual professionals makes it a weaker group, with lots of armchair folks who might not have as much idea of what actually works with real people.
If there were a group I'd join, it would be formed by folks who had a common aim, and would be folks who were completely trustworthy. I know folks to whom I can show methods and presentations, who are respectful of ideas and who can offer wonderfully useful suggestions and sharp criticisms; however, all of them are known to me in a one-degree-of-separation way. I don't know if I'd ever share like that before I knew a person.
Regardless of how large a group I'd join, I'd need to know I could trust an individual member before I shared anything, and I'd probably start with small things. Once a person showed that secrecy and respect wasn't as important to them as to me, I'd be friendly, but wouldn't show them anything further; I'd also be suspicious of that person's associates, probably getting to the point that I wouldn't go to that group anymore. *laugh*
====
As a hypothetical carrot, though, I offer the following: Imagine that a person who didn't respect others would be tossed out immediately, and thus lose the confidence and sharing of the group. The carrot is being able to grow and develop in the midst of creative persons, who are supportive yet critical, and who can respect a secret. These folks would be willing to share wonders, if one toed the line. For some, this is carrot enough; for others, they could care less. Different priorities, but if that carrot wasn't enough for a particular person, I can promise I wouldn't want that person in the group.
Cheers!
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Frank Tougas
Inner circle
Minneapolis, MN
1712 Posts
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 11:06pm
Jonathan,
I understand some of your original work was appropriated but I really am unclear regarding the details. Maybe sometime you can get me up to speed in a pm. your quote:"The net result is an art which now lags its culture by a good generation, between twenty and fifty years behind the times." confuses me. I am not certain the grounds on which you base that assertion, please elaborate if you'd like.
It has been eons since I read "Games people play" and I have apparently retained zero since the reference eludes me.
What I want to point out is that an ethical code is by definition unenforceable. Ethics are always a personal choice and are therefore only as good as the people who adhere to them. This is not always the case, for example in my profession the licensing board can suspend my license for an ethics violation - we have nothing similar in magic.
I could be ostricized by every major magic organization on the planet. They could even have a dark and secret "broken wand ceremony" at the Magic Castle where they actually break a wand over my head, and if little Johnny's dad down the block wants to hire me for his birthday, I'm a magician again.
Ethics can not be a hypothetical as each "case" has to be examined on it's own merits and each must make their own decision accordingly.
Frank Tougas
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
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Beth
Loyal user
Missouri
278 Posts
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Posted: Sep 13, 2005 9:16am
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On 2005-09-12 20:57, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
The quote about evil flourishing given only the passive acceptance and silence of good people comes to mind. Knowing that, it seems sensible to discuss how to choose good options when faced with choices. We already know what happens when folks sit back and do nothing.
I have lain down my axe so to speak as token of good faith that we can get along better. What do we need from each other in order to do better?
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That is exactly what I think... silence is the same as acceptance, but how does one speak out when noone is listening and few care? You can speak out but I'm not sure what good it will do, or if it will change anything. The ppl that yell the loudest at some 14 yr old for trading in a chat room will look the other way if it is a buddy breaking ethics. Really what these discussions on ethics has taught me is ...Protect what you have ...Be savy about protecting what you create...and don't expect the magic community to protect anything or even be sympathetic if someone steals what you create ...they won't. I think you have to know copyright and just be really secretive and selective about who you deal with. I hope I am not coming across very negatively. It's just all this has changed the way I view the ethics magicians have.
Peace Beth
"All creative art is magic, is evocation of the unseen in forms persuasive,enlightening, familar, and surprising."
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: Sep 13, 2005 9:47am
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On 2005-09-13 09:16, Beth wrote:
...how does one speak out when noone is listening and few care?
...You can speak out but I'm not sure what good it will do
...don't expect the magic community to protect anything or even be sympathetic if someone steals what you create ...they won't.
I think you have... be really secretive and selective about who you deal with. |
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Agreed about the state of things as they are. And those are negative statements. Rumors of death, lauding of "borrowed" ideas from unpublished works and betrayal of confidences IS were we are now. We could also bemoan the lauding of those who sell product to muggles and those who sell works of awkward pedigree to the magic community. We could do that, and have done that in our literature for over a hundred years. For some reason that tactic has not worked. You can still buy a chop cup without so much as a penny going to the inventor's estate. Same for the zombie and many other items.
You mentioned caring. IMHO that invokes a fundamental ethical axiom. Why should anyone care? What's in it for them? In other words, where's the carrot? We already know that those with wands have not been so effective using sticks. With the exception of Thomas Wayne who does threaten to use the stick, himself if needs be, the magic community has not protected its most fundamental property, secrets and the rights of those who create those secrets. You can find such mentioned in works dating back over a hundred years if you look.
The purpose of this hypothetical is to explore options for having a better environment. What do we need to do so those concerns you expressed will, on the whole, be less justified by prevalent actions and attitudes? What needs to change? What would need to be different?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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onezero1
Regular user
178 Posts
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Posted: Sep 13, 2005 10:43am
Maybe it all started when magic became a product?
you can be *** sure that intellectual property was not much of an issue for the ancient priests who created oracles and magic temple doors and what-not.
It was serious back then. The gods could manifest physical demonstrations of their power. Exposure could result in the collapse of entire belief systems.
today it just means what? somebody is left out of pocket?
In those ancient days you would have to be one of those temple priests (and probably a high ranking one)before you learned these secrets even existed.
Today the only thing you need is money.
On topic: why should we act in an ethical manner?
do words like honour mean nothing anymore?
is it not enough for the "carrot" to be the simple knowledge that you as a magician are part of a great and ancient collective, a society built on secrets.
The Great Order Of The Closed Mouth.
The carrot is this, you have been entrusted with a secret, sometimes this secret is maybe hundreds of years old. It is a great honour (!) to be allowed to know this secret and like anyone who receives such a prize you gaurd it with your life.
Nope? You bought it online with ten other tricks, you paid for it and you can do with it what you *** well please?
When magic became a product and magicians became a "market" is when it all started going wrong. (IMHO!  )
'though it stands to reason that a samurai should be mindful of the Way...it would seem that we are all negligent.
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: Sep 13, 2005 11:02am
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On 2005-09-13 10:43, onezero1 wrote:...When magic became a product and magicians became a "market" is when it all started going wrong. |
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Following up upon the issue of magic stuff being for sale in the muggle market, what do you suggest?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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JTW
Special user
Florida
669 Posts
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Posted: Sep 13, 2005 12:23pm
Quote:
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Stop publishing instructional magic. It seems simple enough of an answer granted we are still discussing things as hypothetical. Certainly in the real world this approach isn't even close to practical. Practical schmatical right?
As far as the group the answers seem very simple
1- no
2-no - I would not associate with people that create a code of conduct then not uphold it. Why have a code to begin with?
3- quit
Perhaps dissecting why magicians would want to publish in the first place might help.
Thanks for asking some good questions Jonathan.
Cheers
JTW
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: Sep 13, 2005 12:58pm
Quote:
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On 2005-09-13 12:23, JTW wrote:...
Perhaps dissecting why magicians would want to publish in the first place might help. |
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I can only give you my personal answer.
I create things in magic as part of my process for working on and working out feelings or problems elsewhere. A sort of balance between the possible, the absurd, the sentimental and the practical. When I've gotten the magical result I was seeking, that thing has likely served my inner personal purpose. If it seems that it might be useful to the community, I give it out for publication. In my internal process, once I have the insight into something and have tested it to make sure it works, then unless it is something I decide to carry with me and use, I see it as a resource others might enjoy. I give it away. Things used to go to Harry Lorayne for his magazine Apocalypse, and for now they go here on the café. If the thing was inspired by a particular person or something they said in private, they get the thing. The few things I keep for myself still have meaning and purpose for me. They fit me or reflect me the way I am now, and so I do not offer those things to magicdom. That is my process and perspective on the matter.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Beth
Loyal user
Missouri
278 Posts
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Posted: Sep 13, 2005 1:06pm
Quote:
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On 2005-09-13 12:23, JTW wrote:
Stop publishing instructional magic. It seems simple enough of an answer granted we are still discussing things as hypothetical. Certainly in the real world this approach isn't even close to practical. Practical schmatical right?
Perhaps dissecting why magicians would want to publish in the first place might help.
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well here is the conundrum. I asked how to protect something you create that you perform but don't want to sell.... ie someone seeing you perform, figuring out the method, and just taking it. ...and the answer I got if you perform it you are better off publishing it so that you have some copyright protection. So maybe that is one reason ppl publish.
Peace Beth
"All creative art is magic, is evocation of the unseen in forms persuasive,enlightening, familar, and surprising."
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Sep 13, 2005 1:42pm
Beth:
Copyright protection would not apply in this case. Copyright protects ONLY the written and graphical representations, such as the instructions. It can establish that you did something first, but it doesn't protect it.
Here's an example, probably the best there is. In 1909, Burling Hull copyrighted a trick deck of cards. He called it "Cards Mysterious." It used a brand new principle. It was knocked off within a year, and the copyright did him no good at all. You may even have one in your box of tricks. It's called a "Svengali Deck."
When Marshall Brodien put this out as TV Magic Cards, Burling Hull was still alive, but Marshall really was in the clear on this, because the decks had been manufactured by several different companies when he made them very popular. Nevertheless, many people in the magic community took him to task over this. It didn't matter, really. There were no consequences, legally, that applied.
But publishing the routine or trick won't give you anything but a date of establishment of the routine.
And it may backfire on you.
Here's another example. How old do you think the ITR is? Sorcery Manufacturing may have manufactured the first one that most of us have seen, but there is also an example of one in a 1950's issue of the Linking Ring. It was built into a matchbox. The principle was the same, though.
If you look long and hard enough, you can usually find a predecessor to anything. But this does not mean that there is nothing new. New things happen with more frequency than most people imagine. The only thing that keeps people from reinventing the wheel is that we see so many wheels around us.
Regarding publishing:
This is a very loose term. Performance of a piece in public is one form of publishing. Before 1978, if you were a musician and you performed a piece of music in public before submitting it to the LOC for copyright protection, you had just dropped it into the public domain. To complicate this, a recording was not considered a legal example of the work. It had to be presented in a particular form. I used to make a bit of my pocket change writing "lead sheets" for people who wanted to copyright their music.
That has changed.
And there are levels of publishing. Publishing in the Linking Ring, MUM, the Magic Circular or die Magie means that the item will go out only to members of the IBM, SAM, Magic Circle or MZvD. So the item is staying in the family. Magical organizations do not consider this exposure. They consider it teaching. Genii and Magic may be more prestigious to some, but they are available to anyone who has enough money for a subscription. However, the world of magic is not large. By the time you have been in it for a couple of decades, you know many of the major players. It may not take you that long if you go to a lot of conventions.
And the longer you are in it, the more you realize that at some point, there must be instructional material to pass the torch on to the younger generation. Geoff Latta and I were discussing this at the 2004 TAOM convention. He said, "The problem with magic now, is that all the people I used to look up to are gone. Dai Vernon is gone, Slydini is gone, it's just not the same."
I told him, "Maybe it's your turn to carry the torch."
He looked at me and said, "Maybe you're right. You sit there at the roundtable, and somebody hands it to you. You say, 'What's this?' They say, 'It's your turn now.' "
So we have to figure out how to balance education and exposure.
There are systems in place, actually. There are originality trophies, special awards for new publications -- all sorts of carrots.
Jonathan may be right. Maybe we need more carrots. The sticks don't seem to be working well enough.
And we aren't supposed to hit. That's what Mom said.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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BlackShadow
Special user
London UK
666 Posts
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Posted: Sep 13, 2005 5:16pm
Let's not forget that ethics is the philosophy of systems of moral values and obligations. In any widely accepted system, education, accessibility of information, and the developement of future generations are important moral obligations.
Ethics is not about restrictive practices for the benefit of a minority.
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Sep 13, 2005 5:37pm
That's absolutely true.
The main thing is we need to know how much to give back and at what point in the development of the student to give it back. It does no good to teach a student to learn a difficult sleight all by itself, without context. It becomes meaningless.
The old way of teaching musical instruments was to start off and teach the student a few scales on the instrument. Then they would learn a tune. The new approach is just the reverse. They learn a few notes. Then they learn a tune that uses those notes. Then they learn some more notes. After a few lessons, they learn a scale. If they are playing a guitar or a piano, they will soon learn chords. But they don't start off with the Sor studies or Rachmaninoff's Second.
Magic should be the same way. There should be some easy tricks that give the student a basic grasp of one or two sleights or principles and how to apply them. Then a new sleight. Then a couple of new tricks that use it. You don't start them in with an Abbott's Buzz Saw.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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Beth
Loyal user
Missouri
278 Posts
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Posted: Sep 13, 2005 6:42pm
Quote:
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On 2005-09-13 13:42, Bill Palmer wrote:
Beth:
Copyright protection would not apply in this case. Copyright protects ONLY the written and graphical representations, such as the instructions. It can establish that you did something first, but it doesn't protect it.
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but how fair is it? I mean I could watch Luna perform and publish her routine..is that ethical...It's probably legal... but it is wrong on so many basic levels. I would rather have someone clear out my bank account than steal something I created. It's like robbery of the soul.
"All creative art is magic, is evocation of the unseen in forms persuasive,enlightening, familar, and surprising."
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