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Patrick Redford
Inner circle
Michigan
1467 Posts
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Posted: Sep 24, 2005 1:32pm
I've received several questions about my routine, Prevaricator in the Inner Thoughts Thread titled "pocket mentalism". As I stated in that thread, my intent was not to divert the topic away from its original purpose by answering questions about a specific effect I've created and perform and I'd be happy to answer any questions if someone else started a new thread about Prevaricator. No one has, but questions kept coming through PM and in the thread previously mentioned.
Besides the booklet giving a complete history and references to previous versions of this effect, it contains a full 40 pages describing the technique and method behind Prevaricator.
THE BASIC EFFECT:
Of two subjects, one secretly takes the role of a committed liar, the other a devout truth teller. The performer hands one of them a ring and turns away. The two subjects decide silently among themselves which will keep the object. The performer turns back around once the object is concealed from sight and asks each person one question, “Do you have the ring?” The liar has to lie. The truth teller has to tell the truth. Even though only one question is asked, the performer is able to correctly identify who has the ring and who was playing what role.
Here's the blurb from the back of the booklet:
Finally this unique approach and method to the classic Liar’s
Paradox (Ring of Truth) is explained in full detail by Patrick G. Redford. After circulating underground, Prevaricator finally makes its debut. This is hailed by many to be the ultimate version of the classic liars paradox with a catch, there’s no logic puzzle!
No Logic Puzzles Used
No Stooges, Secret Cueing or Set-ups
Stands Up to Repeat Performances
Impossible to Back Track
The Outcome May Be Predicted
May be Performed Impromptu
Can be Performed Close-Up
Can be Performed on Stage
No extra props needed
Here’s What Folks Are Saying About Prevaricator….
“It's not often that I am sooooo badly fooled. If Prevaricator got me only once, it could've been lucky. Twice was impressive. But reliably over and over and over, it was downright remarkable!"
- Gregory Wilson
“This is one of the best “psychological magic effects” I’ve read in years! ...Direct, simple and baffling.”
- Patrik Kuffs
"Prevaricator is invaluable as it truly is puzzling and has inherent in its presentation the emotional barb we’ve all experienced of trying to hide a lie. It’s propless, audience-involving mystery is perfect for dramatic foreplay. Or you can just torture the **** out of your magician friends."
-Dan Huffman
Again, if you have any questions, comments, and concerns I'd be happy to answer all of them. I hope this clears up some of the questions I've been getting.
Thanks,
Patrick Redford
Now Available for video download: Description - an Organic Word Divination www.patrickredford.com
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Tom DV
Special user
651 Posts
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Posted: Sep 24, 2005 4:50pm
How, may I ask, is this different to Bamachek's Ring of Truth? (forgive me if that sounds like a sly attack, but it is a genuine question)
Cheers, Tom.
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Shadowrunner
New user
85 Posts
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Posted: Sep 24, 2005 6:34pm
It isn't. And again this is the same kind of posting that feature throughtout this board.
See new post
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Ben Blau
Loyal user
237 Posts
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Posted: Sep 24, 2005 7:51pm
The difference is primarily in method. Prevaricator doesn't use the old logic-puzzle method commonly associated with that effect. It's much closer to the ideal situation for a "who has what" plot, namely being able to genuinely detect the liar and/or truth-teller based on real behavioral observations.
Ben Blau
Ben Blau
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Tom DV
Special user
651 Posts
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Posted: Sep 25, 2005 8:16am
Who cares about methods if the effect is the same?
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Patrick Redford
Inner circle
Michigan
1467 Posts
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Posted: Sep 25, 2005 9:34am
While the effect may seem the same, it isn't. When performing previous versions, many are familiar - yes our lay audiences - with similar logic puzzles. It has made its rounds in popular culture. Audiences are well aware of how previous versions work. There are several differences in this method AND effect. Let me outline a few to you now....
Difference in method:
This does not use any form of a logic puzzle. As Ben mentions, it is as close to the ideal situation for the "who has what" plot. The audience CANT backtrack the effect to reverse engineer it. This is impossible. With other versions an audience may quickly deduce the method and perform it themselves or at least explain it to their friends. This is a major weakness of previous versions. This CAN NOT happen with Prevaricator. There is so much more that this method allows that is not limited to just a "who has what" plot.
Different in effect:
There are a few new ways to present this "who has what" plot that are discussed at detail in this forty-page booklet. In addition, this effect will also allow one, although is not necessary, to predict before any decisions or choices are made who is the liar and who is the truth teller. This effect is direct and to the point. Because there is only one question, it's easier for the audience to make sense of what's going on. Also, if the subjects involved 'mess up' their answers - it doesn't matter! The effect will still work! This may be repeated and be successful - for the same people. Repeating it will not place it in danger of being reverse engineered.
However, if you're happy with the standard logic puzzle versions that exist (and there are a lot of them) and it works for you, there is no need for you to purchase this as well. I'd discourage this greatly. However, if you're interested in nearly doing this type of effect for real, under 'test' conditions, WITHOUT a logic puzzle, this IS for you.
PLEASE remember folks, Prevaricator is not for beginers and it's priced as such.
-Patrick Redford
Now Available for video download: Description - an Organic Word Divination www.patrickredford.com
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joeyjojo
Regular user
uruguay
123 Posts
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Posted: Sep 25, 2005 10:30am
Quote:
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On 2005-09-25 09:34, Patrick Redford wrote:
PLEASE remember folks, Prevaricator is not for beginers and it's priced as such.
-Patrick Redford
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What that heck?!?!
First of both, why do people who can't spell insist on writing 'books'?
Second of both, are things priced higher or lower for beginners? Please explain your adorable statement. (Don't you mean: you're product is not for 'poor people' and is priced accordingly?)
adios,
joey
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Ben Blau
Loyal user
237 Posts
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Posted: Sep 25, 2005 11:32am
Quote:
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On 2005-09-25 10:30, joeyjojo wrote:
Quote:
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On 2005-09-25 09:34, Patrick Redford wrote:
PLEASE remember folks, Prevaricator is not for beginers and it's priced as such.
-Patrick Redford
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What that heck?!?!
First of both, why do people who can't spell insist on writing 'books'?
Second of both, are things priced higher or lower for beginners? Please explain your adorable statement. (Don't you mean: you're product is not for 'poor people' and is priced accordingly?)
adios,
joey
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Joey:
I agree that people should be more careful when it comes to proofreading material before publishing it. Spelling errors, however, don't mitigate the value of the content necessarily. For example, despite the sincerity of your post, there are errors in it (e.g. "What that heck" and "you're product") Does that make the message right or wrong?
The bottom line here is that some people do care about method, while others do not. Patrick isn't being misleading or making false claims as to the intended value of this booklet, and it should be a simple matter for anyone to determine if they're interested. If you are not, just skip it. Why stress out over it?
Ben Blau
Ben Blau
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B&B Magic
Regular user
189 Posts
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Posted: Sep 25, 2005 12:48pm
The price is artificially high to keep away the merely curious. This is a common practice in magic used to keep the good stuff shrouded in secrecy.
If you just want to know the secret, it is an expensive lesson. You may find it beyond your current abilities. Rather than have the secret out in the open, this keeps it in the hands of those who value the method.
If you are going to perform this well (or get paid to do it) then it is an investment.
This isn't the first effect to be priced out of reach of beginners.
Brandon
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joeyjojo
Regular user
uruguay
123 Posts
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Posted: Sep 25, 2005 1:27pm
Thank you Brandon - now I understand. I'm a professional performer, but in my country salaries are considerably lower than they are elsewhere. So, personally, I would prefer if there was a way to get items for my trade by proving that I am not merely curious in some way. I have published booklets on magic in Spanish - a language in which I don't have spelling, grammar, vocabulary mistakes (my use of 'adorable', for instance, was wrong). If I could show these to the seller, would they be satisfied that I'm not after quick secrets? I'm not rich (we get 25$ per 1.5 hour show in Montevideo, and less in the provinces). I guess this is one of the inequities of the global village; we are now all exposed to these products, but we cannot all afford them. And, I cringe to think what the postage to my country would be like...
The seller can choose whatever price he wants. But if the reason for high prices is to prevent non-professionals from using it, then maybe adopt a mechanism for sifting the secret-hunters from sincere performers. Others have a password protected site.
Adios,
joey
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Sensio
Elite user
Creator of DESIRE: Best 2-way com tool!
433 Posts
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Posted: Sep 25, 2005 1:36pm
Is there any demo video of the effect? It may help us to better understand the differences from Banachek's Ring of Truth.
rgds,
aware
FEELINGS: The unbeatable offer for WHICH HAND, WHICH OBJECT and CUEING...
Visit KnockoutMentalism.com for more details.
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Tom Jorgenson
Inner circle
LOOSE ANGLES, CALIFORNIA
3728 Posts
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Posted: Sep 26, 2005 12:38pm
Hmmm..Joeyjojo has a point suitable for a separate thread. How DO we share with our peers when there is such a discrepency in base income? Have we an ethical responsibility somewhere here?
also...how much is this little gem, anyway?
For the Fumble-Thumbed who wish a good CT: John Wells' THE BARFLY'S BILLET TEST &INDEX CARD TEAR
http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/jorgenson
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Patrick Redford
Inner circle
Michigan
1467 Posts
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Posted: Sep 26, 2005 1:39pm
First, thanks to everyone who has messaged me in PM. Brandon, Ben and Joey, thanks for your kind understanding. Joey, I have messaged you privately about your concerns.
As for a demo, I do have some performance footage of myself performing this effect, yes. However, I'd need to convert it over to digital format. When I get a free moment to gather the proper material, I'll see what I can do about posting a performance clip.
-Patrick
Now Available for video download: Description - an Organic Word Divination www.patrickredford.com
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paisa23
Inner circle
7 years no smoking. And counting
6384 Posts
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Posted: Sep 26, 2005 2:06pm
Very intrested in this I don't perform any verson of this so I'm Clueless but I would love to see a demo of it just to add to the image that I have in my head. Although I might do it for a naked girl holding it behind her back as it your Picture LOL just kidding. Maybe .And if I missspelt anything sorry Spanish is my first language.
June 22 2012 9:02 AM baby Usnavi was born!
http://twitter.com/paisa233
http://www.facebook.com/people/Wilder-J-Rua/505202382
http://www.myspace.com/wildrua
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Patrick Redford
Inner circle
Michigan
1467 Posts
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Posted: Sep 27, 2005 10:36am
I hope you enjopy it Paisa.
Posted: Sep 27, 2005 7:02pm
----------------------------------------------
I was just checking in before my show tonight. To those who PM'd me asking if this is still available: Yes, it is. I had a very small batch printed yesterday evening.
-Patrick
Now Available for video download: Description - an Organic Word Divination www.patrickredford.com
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John Nesbit
Inner circle
1208 Posts
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Posted: Sep 27, 2005 9:14pm
Patrick, PM'd you
John
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Patrick Redford
Inner circle
Michigan
1467 Posts
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Posted: Sep 28, 2005 12:45am
Thanks John
Now Available for video download: Description - an Organic Word Divination www.patrickredford.com
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paisa23
Inner circle
7 years no smoking. And counting
6384 Posts
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Posted: Sep 28, 2005 12:55am
You will here from me tommorrow gotto have the wife ok it first. LOL
June 22 2012 9:02 AM baby Usnavi was born!
http://twitter.com/paisa233
http://www.facebook.com/people/Wilder-J-Rua/505202382
http://www.myspace.com/wildrua
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Patrick Redford
Inner circle
Michigan
1467 Posts
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Posted: Sep 29, 2005 4:11pm
Thanks Paisa23, I look forward to hearing from you.
-Patrick
Now Available for video download: Description - an Organic Word Divination www.patrickredford.com
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Bananafish
Elite user
Simon Shaw, Suffolk, England
416 Posts
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Posted: Sep 30, 2005 4:39am
Quote:
| Is there any demo video of the effect? It may help us to better understand the differences from Banachek's Ring of Truth |
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With the Banachek effect, the two specs have a choice of being a liar or truth teller, and so they could both be liars, both be truth tellers or both be different. You need to ask 3 questions (although for consitency you ask 4), from which you can deduce who has the ring, and whether or not each spec is a truth teller or liar.
With Patrick's effect, If I have understood correctly, one must be a truth teller, and one must be a liar. However, You only need to ask two questions (one to each spectator), and if the question is "Do you have the ring", as stated, then the method could never be logic. Think about it, they will always both answer the same.
So, is one better than the other? Well in my opinion, if no one in the audience considers logic a possibility then they are pretty much same, possibly even the banachek is stronger, however, as someone who has performed the banacheck version (which I do like a lot), then it has to be said that some people will always assume logic has a part to play and so a method that can achieve the same thing without using logic, I would say would be a powerful tool for any mentalist.
I for one certainly like the sound of it.
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Clinton Wayne
Regular user
148 Posts
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Posted: Sep 30, 2005 12:13pm
I think you can miss these point right. No mater how or what toan audience or specator it is only still just fifty ffifty to watch OK. So great to think for something to make it beter for you r personality but I imagine reactoins not going to be to strong anyway so it's better to something not just a lucky guess right. I am not trying to spoil it but I have been in this biz a while and wanteed to just help the younger ones that will be the future to avoid some misake I have made. Keep using your mind and great luck to you next manucsript !
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Patrick Redford
Inner circle
Michigan
1467 Posts
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Posted: Sep 30, 2005 4:23pm
Clinton Wayne,
You're right! It is just a 50/50 chance to watch. This is addressed in the booklet. "At a glance, a fifty-fifty chance may not seem extraordinary at all. If one presents such a game with confidence that one will be correct, even when the odds are a mere fifty-fifty, the conviction of such a silly game becomes utterly staggering." - ESPECIALLY when it may be done over and over again!
Bananafish,
Prevaricator will allow one to perform the same effect with the subjects being able to choose to be the same thing. It makes it a bit trickier to perform but it is possible. I don't put emphasis on this fact simply because most people will have trouble with this version. It is discussed in the booklet as well. Thanks for the kind words, and your interest.
-Patrick
Posted: Oct 2, 2005 12:59pm
----------------------------------------------
Just an update: All orders have gone out to those who showed interest. There are only five more booklets left in this printing.
-Patrick
Now Available for video download: Description - an Organic Word Divination www.patrickredford.com
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tincture
Special user
534 Posts
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Posted: Oct 4, 2005 7:38pm
When can we see a video demo?
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Patrick Redford
Inner circle
Michigan
1467 Posts
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Posted: Oct 6, 2005 11:32am
Tincture,
There is currenlty no demo video. At the moment I'm much to busy to work on one. There may be one posted in the future but at this point I simply don't have the time. If you have any specific questions, I'd be happy to answer them for you.
Thanks,
Patrick
Now Available for video download: Description - an Organic Word Divination www.patrickredford.com
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Stephen Long
Inner circle
1479 Posts
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Posted: Oct 6, 2005 4:07pm
I don't think it's a 50/50 chance at all.
If you give your spectators total freedom in which role they play, then you've actually got a one in eight chance of getting everything correct. And by everything I mean the role of person one, the role of person two, and which one has the object. It should feel to the audience that you're actually revealing three things, not just one. If you're only revealing who has the ring, you're not getting everything you could out of this plot and an audience may well be underwhelmed by the effect.
Hello.
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Patrick Redford
Inner circle
Michigan
1467 Posts
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Posted: Oct 6, 2005 6:37pm
I'm not so sure this is correct. One answer will determine the next and so one. I would still have a 50/50 chance of knowing who was the liar was and who was the truth teller. Discovering this answer will lead me to the rest of the answers. This is speaking strictly when the routine is played with a truth teller AND a liar. However if this is expanded to allowing the subjects to play the same role - if they so choose- then yes the 50/50 is done away with.
By the way, the routine maybe played in either way. The booklet mainly deals with situations that involve a liar and a truth teller.
You're absolutely on the spot when you say that if one is only revealing who has the ring then one isn't getting the maximum out of this effect at all and the audience will be much under whelmed, I'm sure.
-Patrick
Now Available for video download: Description - an Organic Word Divination www.patrickredford.com
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Stephen Long
Inner circle
1479 Posts
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Posted: Oct 6, 2005 7:16pm
Quote:
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On 2005-10-06 18:37, Patrick Redford wrote:
I'm not so sure this is correct. One answer will determine the next and so on. |
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Absolutely.
But I do maintain that (structurally, at least) it should feel like three revelations to an audience. Not just one. As it seems you agree.
Hello.
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Patrick Redford
Inner circle
Michigan
1467 Posts
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Posted: Oct 7, 2005 1:05pm
I do agree, Absolutely. How do other folks feel about this? Do you think that the audience draws the conclusion that it’s simply 50/50?
-Patrick
Now Available for video download: Description - an Organic Word Divination www.patrickredford.com
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Stephen Long
Inner circle
1479 Posts
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Posted: Oct 7, 2005 3:41pm
The subtext of the effect when you present it should be: "She's lying to me. He's telling me the truth. Therefore she must have the ring." And not: "She has the ring. Therefore he must be telling me the truth and she must be lying to me." If presented the latter of the two ways, it feels like a 50/50 shot. If presented the former of the two ways, it feels like something more.
By the way, I recently bought a second-hand copy of Prevaricator. On paper, I adore it. I can't wait to put it into practice. It seems to me (in theory) that it wouldn't be that much more difficult to give your subjects total freedom of choice in which role they choose. And of course, if you're absolutely lost you can always fall back on the "extra question". (Falling back on the "extra question" from time to time is something I would have no qualms about.)
Hello.
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Pasq
Elite user
Lance Rench-Hausen.
417 Posts
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Posted: Oct 7, 2005 3:44pm
Always with the "subtext" Stephen. What about the semiotics, man?
Sparrow in a barrow.
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