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Stephen Long
Inner circle
1479 Posts
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Posted: Oct 7, 2005 3:53pm
What about them, Pasquino?
Hello.
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John Nesbit
Inner circle
1208 Posts
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Posted: Oct 7, 2005 4:01pm
Quote:
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On 2005-10-07 13:05, Patrick Redford wrote:
I do agree, Absolutely. How do other folks feel about this? Do you think that the audience draws the conclusion that it’s simply 50/50?
-Patrick
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Not if there is a three way revelation, (as mentioned above). Especially if it is repeated. This one is a "keeper". 
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Pasq
Elite user
Lance Rench-Hausen.
417 Posts
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Posted: Oct 7, 2005 4:03pm
Quote:
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On 2005-10-07 15:53, Stephen Long wrote:
What about them, Pasquino?
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Just goofin'.
Pick them up, pop them in a basket & I'll tell you.
xx
Ps. Hope you're properly balancing out uni & mentalism. Getting the best of both.
Sparrow in a barrow.
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Turk
Inner circle
Portland, OR
3394 Posts
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Posted: Oct 8, 2005 3:18pm
Quote:
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On 2005-09-30 12:13, Clinton Wayne wrote:
I think you can miss these point right. No mater how or what toan audience or specator it is only still just fifty ffifty to watch OK. So great to think for something to make it beter for you r personality but I imagine reactoins not going to be to strong anyway so it's better to something not just a lucky guess right. I am not trying to spoil it but I have been in this biz a while and wanteed to just help the younger ones that will be the future to avoid some misake I have made. Keep using your mind and great luck to you next manucsript !
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Just thinking out loud here: Assuming that the odds are are only 50-50, I'm wondering if the effect can be heightened and made more dramatic if the consequences (for the mentalist) are made more severe.
Such as: two paper bags--one of which has an upright broken beer bottle in it and the other is empty and the mentalist must slam his hand down onto one of the bags. Or, a hidden armed rat trap in some sort of container and a like container being either empty or contianing an unarmed rat trap. Kind of like Larry Becker's "Russian Roulette"--only shorter in duration.
Alternatively, mavbe for the squeamish, maybe two $50.00 bills (or $100.00 worth of lottery tickets, etc.) in one bag and the other bag empty. The mentalist chooses one bag and the two audience participants get to keep the contents of the other.
Then again, does this type of effect take the effect out of the realm of mentalism and into the realm of magic or geek magic?
As I say..."Just thinking out loud"....and, assuming that the 50-50 possibility is too lame for some, trying to think of ways of possibly heightening the drama or the emotional buy-in for the audience.
Mike
P.S. What I'm also trying to delicately suggest is that we all use our imaginations and come up with interesting and unique variations on presentation that takes any effect away from the "printed instructions" presentation and give it our own personality and signature. (I still remember Harry Murphy's posting about his comedic but dramatic version of Peter Loughran's "Iron Garrotte" effect where Harry appeared in "biker gear" in a bikers' bar and wow'ed the audience with the effect and had them eating out of his hand--albeit the "clean one".)
Magic is a vanishing Art.
This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.
Eschew obfuscation.
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Winnes
Veteran user
315 Posts
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Posted: Oct 8, 2005 4:54pm
Of course its 50/50 - knowing if one person is telling the truth (or lying) reveals everything else. I don't think anybody would see it as otherwise. Even giving the participants the option of choosing the same still leaves the odds at 50/50 (if person A says she has the ring and you were to guess she was a liar then you can summise that person b has the ring and is a liar or truthteller from their response when you ask if they have the ring) - this is still only 50/50. But, that isn't (or shouldnt be) a problem - 50/50 still means you could get it wrong, and seeing as you aren't guessing, then it will still be very impressive. More important than the odds is the entertainment factor in this presentation - it (the plot in general) is a fantastic one that people seem to love.
I havent yet tried out the method in Prevaricator, but as soon as I read it I thought "bloody hell, of course that will work!"
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Patrick Redford
Inner circle
Michigan
1474 Posts
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Posted: Oct 9, 2005 9:11pm
Craig, Do report back when you've performed it a few times…. As Dan Huffman wrote in the forward, it's spooky how well the effect works.
Turk, The 50/50 plot has been explored by both Luke Jermay and Derren Brown. If you haven't read about his Dangerous Opener in Coral Fang, it may be worth a look. It's a brilliant bit. I also believe Derren was risking 1000 pounds (or something) in a 50/50 choice in his stage show as well.
Johnjnesbit: Part of the beauty of Prevaricator is that it may be repeated over and over again without fear that the method will become transparent, it simply can’t!
Posted: Oct 9, 2005 9:13pm
-----------------------------------------
Stephen,
I honestly hadn't ever thought of falling back on the "extra" question ploy. That is a great idea, indeed. I'm pleased that you enjoyed it.
-Patrick
Now Available for video download: Description - an Organic Word Divination www.patrickredford.com
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tincture
Special user
534 Posts
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Posted: Oct 12, 2005 5:36pm
Are there any reviews for this?
-Tim
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Colin
Inner circle
Central Scotland
1151 Posts
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Posted: Oct 17, 2005 5:16pm
The Ultimate Ring of Truth? To be honest, I'd have to say it's much more than that!
It goes further than Ring of Truth, it's a technique that when you master it- could do so much more with it. I've been having so much fun trying this out with this routine, and others!
Whats funny is that you are doing what you are saying and actually reading people!!
To be honest I wish people wouldn't buy this as it is a real technique that I'd rather kept to as few people as possible.
The book is also well produced, kept simple and easy to understand taking you through everything about this routine...what more could you ask for?!
Very well done.
Col.
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Quinn
Inner circle
with an outer triangle
1946 Posts
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Posted: Oct 18, 2005 10:05am
I just got this yesterday, and I actually laughed out loud when I read how it's accomplished. Though I haven't tried it yet, I'm more excited by the idea than I've been about any other mentalism effect I've come across in a while. If, like me, you have a penchant for effects where you really do what you say you're doing, you'll especially love this. And as Colin said, the potential for other applications beyond this routine is great.
I'll write more once I've gotten it down and tried it a few times, but after reading it, it seems like a real gem.
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Ben Blau
Loyal user
237 Posts
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Posted: Oct 18, 2005 1:57pm
Hey Quinn:
I just wanted to compliment you on your contributions to Patricks's ACAN, "Auspicious Coincidence." He and I get together frequently, and he shared some of your ideas with me. I thought they really added a lot to the effect.
Ben Blau
Ben Blau
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Patrick Redford
Inner circle
Michigan
1474 Posts
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Posted: Oct 18, 2005 6:40pm
The "basic principle" is very devious indeed. Although, it should be noted that Ben Blau is the creative genius behind the basic principle of prevaricator. He originally suggested this as the idea to be applied to the Ring of Truth plot. As stated in the booklet, I simply developed it and got it working successfully. The basic principle certainly has applications to other effects as Colin and Quinn have both kindly pointed out. Ben has a lot of wonderful thinking and as soon as he finishes his "secret project", I would highly suggest checking out his thoughts further. I know I'll be the first in line when his thoughts finally hit the magic shelves.
Kindest Regards,
-Patrick Redford
Now Available for video download: Description - an Organic Word Divination www.patrickredford.com
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Ben Blau
Loyal user
237 Posts
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Posted: Oct 19, 2005 11:39am
It should be made clear, however, that Patrick's work with the principle is of primary value here. I could not have done a better job creating the necessary structure to get it to work reliably. He put in the work, by carefully selecting just the right language, blocking, and spectator handling in order to MAKE it work. We're all lucky that he did so.
Patrick really understands such issues, and his work should be studied for this reason alone (even if you ignore the effects themselves). Prevaricator is an excellent example of this. The portion for which I am responsible constitutes only a small percentage of what is really taught in that booklet. While the Basic Principle may be a hell of a secret, the real "secret" that many will miss are the many points Patrick has added to force it to work reliably. A "psychological principle" is rarely enough, solely, for anyone to count on to get a mentalism effect to actually work. If you want to use such principles, you should take a lesson from Patrick's example not only in Prevaricator, but in all of his writings.
Ben Blau
Ben Blau
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tincture
Special user
534 Posts
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Posted: Oct 21, 2005 6:59pm
It looks like I'm going to have to shell out the bucks for this one now. Thanks guys. But I'm confused about one thing - is this really sure fire? There is mention of a "psychological principle" behind this but that's not all this is, right?
-Tim
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Ben Blau
Loyal user
237 Posts
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Posted: Oct 21, 2005 8:41pm
This routine depends on real behavioral observations in order to work, as opposed to the traditional logic-puzzle method. You'll find it to be very close to "real mentalism," in that you are basically doing what you claim to be doing, which is reading body language to detect a lie. When you know what to look for (and it's probably not what you think), and how to bring out those tells in your participants, it's extremely reliable.
As Patrick points out in the manuscript, there is no such thing as an infallable method. You should be informed that Prevaricator uses no gimmicks, stooges (instant, or otherwise), equivoque, mathematical principles, nor logic-puzzles in order to function. If you're more comfortable with those methods, you might find Prevaricator slightly intimidating to perform. For performers willing to take chances, you'll find this to be heavily tipped in your favor.
Ben Blau
Ben Blau
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paisa23
Inner circle
7 years no smoking. And counting
6420 Posts
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Posted: Oct 21, 2005 8:44pm
Hmm so I need to get my hand on this huh?
I heard he only had a few left.
June 22 2012 9:02 AM baby Usnavi was born!
http://twitter.com/paisa233
http://www.facebook.com/people/Wilder-J-Rua/505202382
http://www.myspace.com/wildrua
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suhbreal
New user
Pittsburgh, PA
87 Posts
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Posted: Oct 25, 2005 1:05pm
Major props once again Patrick! I was hesitant about shelling out the cash for this one but after reading the absolutely wonderful books mendacity and consecution I decided to go for it. I can definitely state that I will no longer blink an eye at picking up whatever patrick has to offer. His thinking is absolutely diabolical and his writing is very insightful. You get much much more than just the 'secret' to some effects. I'd love to actually see him perform this material but even if he just keeps putting out material of this quality he's setting him self up for great things.
on to prevaricator...
I just couldn't help myself but to go out and play with this last night. I got the booklet in the afternoon and read through it several times. more than likely, you could go out and perform this immediately after reading the 'secret' but I learned quickly that patricks presentational tips go a long way towards making this sure fire.
50/50 not amazing huh? the small group I had together at the bar was begging me to do this over and over again. conventional wisdom would tell you, that with any effect, you wouldn't want to do it for the same people too many times. reverse engineering of this effect truly seems impossible. I had my doubts about that at the outset but over and over again they were just stumped. in fact, I think the confusion increased with repeated performances. now, these were relatively close friends and good acquaintances but the solutions they were trying to come up with grew more prepostrous by the minute. amazing. I had my reckless fun with it and from now on I promise to treat this effect with the respect it deserves 
the best part of the effect for me was that it became very magical in my own mind. obviously you want to cultivate a sense of belief in yourself to make it more believable to the audience but I was truly amazed at how this worked over and over again. I found myself being every bit as surprised by the outcome. I did mess it up a few times, and that is where I really learned how valuable patricks presentational ideas were, but overall it didn't really matter much in the mind of those watching.
Outstanding work once again Patrick
Ryan
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Harry H
Inner circle
1532 Posts
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Posted: Oct 25, 2005 1:28pm
For those who cant get this effect it is published in Rick Maue's Book of Haunted Magick(sounds identical,one question asked) called Truth of The Relic.Sounds identical to Prevaricator-apologies if wrong.
Two specs decide who will lie who will tell truth and who will have ring/coin,you come back in room ask one question and you instantly know who is what and who has ring/coin!
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suhbreal
New user
Pittsburgh, PA
87 Posts
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Posted: Oct 25, 2005 1:33pm
Nope Harry, definitely not the same effect. Great effect in the Maue Book but most definitely an entirely differnt beast.
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suhbreal
New user
Pittsburgh, PA
87 Posts
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Posted: Oct 25, 2005 1:39pm
Although thanks for mentioning it as I think this might make a real nice quick and impromptu preface to terasabos.
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Jamie D. Grant
V.I.P.
as seen in Ripley's Believe It or Not!
2029 Posts
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Posted: Oct 26, 2005 1:12am
Hi All!
Is this similiar to Barrie Richardson's Truth To Tell (Theatre of the Mind, page 111)?
Thanks!
  
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Ben Blau
Loyal user
237 Posts
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Posted: Oct 26, 2005 8:27am
Quote:
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On 2005-10-26 01:12, Django wrote:
Hi All!
Is this similiar to Barrie Richardson's Truth To Tell (Theatre of the Mind, page 111)?
Thanx!
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Django:
Truth To Tell makes use of the traditional logic puzzle applied to the liars plot. What if you could really detect lies based on genuinely observing body language? That's what Prevaricator is about.
-Ben Blau
Ben Blau
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Waters
Inner circle
2250 Posts
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Posted: Oct 26, 2005 1:26pm
... I am waiting for mine (that I just ordered).
I can't wait to give it a try. Thanks for the information everyone.
Anxiously pacing at the mailbox,
Sean
www.watersmindworks.com
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Patrick Redford
Inner circle
Michigan
1474 Posts
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Posted: Oct 26, 2005 8:01pm
Quote:
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On 2005-10-25 13:05, suhbreal wrote:
Major props once again Patrick! I was hesitant about shelling out the cash for this one but after reading the absolutely wonderful books mendacity and consecution I decided to go for it. I can definitely state that I will no longer blink an eye at picking up whatever patrick has to offer. His thinking is absolutely diabolical and his writing is very insightful. You get much much more than just the 'secret' to some effects. I'd love to actually see him perform this material but even if he just keeps putting out material of this quality he's setting him self up for great things.
on to prevaricator...
I just couldn't help myself but to go out and play with this last night. I got the booklet in the afternoon and read through it several times. more than likely, you could go out and perform this immediately after reading the 'secret' but I learned quickly that patricks presentational tips go a long way towards making this sure fire.
50/50 not amazing huh? the small group I had together at the bar was begging me to do this over and over again. conventional wisdom would tell you, that with any effect, you wouldn't want to do it for the same people too many times. reverse engineering of this effect truly seems impossible. I had my doubts about that at the outset but over and over again they were just stumped. in fact, I think the confusion increased with repeated performances. now, these were relatively close friends and good acquaintances but the solutions they were trying to come up with grew more prepostrous by the minute. amazing. I had my reckless fun with it and from now on I promise to treat this effect with the respect it deserves
the best part of the effect for me was that it became very magical in my own mind. obviously you want to cultivate a sense of belief in yourself to make it more believable to the audience but I was truly amazed at how this worked over and over again. I found myself being every bit as surprised by the outcome. I did mess it up a few times, and that is where I really learned how valuable patricks presentational ideas were, but overall it didn't really matter much in the mind of those watching.
Outstanding work once again Patrick
Ryan
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I'm pleased that you jumped right in with this. Thanks for reporting back with your thoughts. And thank you for the compliments. They're appreciated. I'm pleased this has been so well received.
-Patrick
Now Available for video download: Description - an Organic Word Divination www.patrickredford.com
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bobser
Inner circle
4099 Posts
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Posted: Oct 26, 2005 8:20pm
I 'might' buy this. However I'm teasing myself with it for awhile.
I assume that this is based on Boolean Enlightenment by a guy called George Boole in the 19th century.
I know how you find out who has the ring in one question, but I can't see how you find out who is the liar/truth-teller 'yet'. I'm enjoying the torture right now. gonna' sleep on it.
Bobser
based in UK. pro magician/mentalist & Clinical Hypnotist.
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Ben Blau
Loyal user
237 Posts
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Posted: Oct 26, 2005 8:27pm
Hi Bobser:
Prevaricator is not related to the Boolean Enlightenment puzzle at all. In fact, it's the precise opposite. The whole idea is that it does NOT use the traditional logic-puzzle methodology.
I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised.
Ben Blau
Ben Blau
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bobser
Inner circle
4099 Posts
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Posted: Oct 27, 2005 5:37pm
Ben Blau, were you sent to torment me?
C'mon somebody, just tell me. Tell me!!!!!!
Don't have me spend anymore of my missus's money. She needs mascara for heaven's sake... hello???
based in UK. pro magician/mentalist & Clinical Hypnotist.
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Ben Blau
Loyal user
237 Posts
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Posted: Oct 27, 2005 8:43pm
Bobser:
I'm looking forward to hearing your reactions when you finally read the secret.
It's gonna make you drool.
Ben Blau
Ben Blau
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zallen
Regular user
149 Posts
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Posted: Oct 27, 2005 9:24pm
I'm seriously thinking of checking this out...on another note, I just figured out an excellent idea to use in conjunction with this.
If you perform a Dangerous Monte / Russian Roulette routine, you could go with the premise of asking the volunteer who hid the knife, spike, or whatever, to reply yes every time you ask if the knife is under a certain cover.
By using Patrick's effect before hand, it would greatly increase the audience's belief that you could read their body language perfectly.
Just a thought.
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suhbreal
New user
Pittsburgh, PA
87 Posts
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Posted: Oct 27, 2005 10:31pm
I've been playing around with this for a couple of days and I'm finding that the best value in it lies in stengthening anything that it procedes. Once you work out the basics of handling the spectators you can delivery this so confidently. The logic puzzle type solution to this effect never interested me just because it seemed like too much to keep track of. granted I'm not the brightest light on the tree, but they were just too much for me to think about and deliver a confident presentation. with this I can just walk into a room, grab two people and I'm off. truly this can stand on it's own, which I found very surprising. as a preface to any other effect though, it sets a confident and believable tone with minimum performance anxiety. it just simply WILL work.
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Waters
Inner circle
2250 Posts
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Posted: Oct 27, 2005 10:54pm
...stop it
Patrick just sent mine out... I was at a corporate dinner party tonight and did some spoon bending and impromptu mentalism, I would have loved to have been able to perform this.
I will next time, thanks Patrick!
Sean
www.watersmindworks.com
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