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Jaxon
Inner circle
Kalamazoo, Mi.
2459 Posts
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Posted: Feb 10, 2006 4:29pm
Let me share an example of the point I want to make in this post. This example is from a movie many of you might have seen. The movie is the 1998 version of Houdini staring Johnathon Schaech.
There was a scene in the movie where he's performing magic in a bar and asks Bess to dance. When they start dancing Houdini was very clumsy. He was stepping on her feet and even fell on his butt. Then he got up to try again and all of the sudden he was a good dancer. This shocked Bess and I'd imagine the change was almost like magic to her.
That demonstrates what I mean by "Intentional Clumsiness." This can be a powerful tool in magic. Imagine seeing a magician who is so clumsy with a deck of cards they can barely shuffle them. All of the sudden he's able to make the four aces appear in a very visual way. This would be a lot more surprising then if the performer did a lot of fancy cuts and shuffles before producing the aces.
I'm not suggesting you should be clumsy all the time or to over do it. But I do suggest you keep it in mind that sometimes it's best to not do those fancy moves that demonstrate your skill and dexterity before certain tricks. It might actually be suppressing the strength of the effect you are performing. It might cause them to think, "After seeing what he can do I'm sot surprise he can do that too." On the other hand if the performer was a little clumsy they might think, "He can barely hold it. How the heck did he make that happen"?
So keep in mind that a clumsy moment isn't always a bad thing. Quite often you can use it to your advantage.
Ron Jaxon
"The map is not the Territory"
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Anabelle
Special user
953 Posts
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Posted: Feb 10, 2006 4:37pm
I totally agree, but when it comes to cards, I AM actually clumsy and when the end of the card routine comes around, people are fairly amazed at the result. All the card stuff I do is like that. So it works for me to be somewhat clumsy with cards.
Anabelle
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Foucault
Elite user
New Jersey, USA
424 Posts
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Posted: Feb 10, 2006 5:26pm
Some sleights, like the jog shuffle, are better if you are slightly sloppy in shuffling the cards.
There are two ways to go here: You're either trying to convince the audience that you possess real magical powers, in which case appearing to not be very good at handling cards, coins, etc., would be a plus; or you're trying to show them that you are able, though great dexterity, to achieve certain effects.
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jgravelle
Loyal user
Milwaukee (Head shown not actual size)
270 Posts
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Posted: Feb 10, 2006 7:00pm
You can play both ends too, by starting out with clumsy/inept handlings and progressing to the point where it's apparent you're skillful and dexteri- ... dextir- ... um... good with your fingers.
I've toyed with the (probably not original) idea that a set of card effects might be peppered with an Ambitious Card that keeps falling out of the deck or springing loose of the shuffle time and time again during other tricks, as sort of a running gag.
Regards,
-jjg
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Father Photius
Grammar Host
El Paso, TX (Formerly Amarillo)
11727 Posts
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Posted: Feb 11, 2006 1:34am
Excellent insight again, Ron. No question about it, the intentional clumsiness goes a long way in adding to an effect. I've even seen Mark Wilson feign a goof and clumsiness, he turns to Nani and says in a very frustrated way, "oh , Nani I did it again." Nani sympathizes an says a soft, "oh! No!" Mark stands there looking embarassed, ever magician in the room is embarrassed for him. Poor Mark, up in years, he is loosing it, then wham! Big effect, it worked. Everyone is blown away. Totally intentional. (Of course I had to see him do the routine at two different occassions to realize it was intentional). Harry Lorayne does it a lot too, fakes errors, inability, clumsiness, then wham. And anyone who ever watched Dai Vernon Revelations see the old master claim "not to be able to do that move anymore, my hands are not what they used to be" then executes flawless, invisible, and very difficult moves under the cover of clumsiness. Ron you are the true heir to the art of magic philosophy. An excellent next generation following Eugene Burger. You verbalize very well what most of us know, but never really think about, and should.
"Now here's the man with the 25 cent hands, that two bit magician..."
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Genghis
Regular user
Derby UK
162 Posts
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Posted: Feb 11, 2006 3:26am
Lennart Green uses clumsyness, teamed with extreme sloppyness VERY effectively in some of his marvelous routines.
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sjdavison
Inner circle
Sussex, England
1156 Posts
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Posted: Feb 11, 2006 4:51am
I wholeheartedly agree Ron, especially for those in the mentalism world - the idea of any skill in manipulation should be furthest from people's minds, and 'sloppiness' will add to this belief.
For example, Mr OSterlind's 'sloppy jog shuffle' springs to mind.
IT should of course be used sparingly - there is a difference between the occasional 'slip' and looking unprofessional.
Si
Simon, 25, UK
www.sidavisonmagic.com
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evolve629
Inner circle
A stack of
3833 Posts
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Posted: Feb 11, 2006 4:30pm
In Allan Ackerman's My Favorite Gemini, he teaches how to transfer the bottom card to the top without openning cutting it. His idea's to do an accidental displacement - that invovles an intentional clumsiness.
I think this method of Ackerman's demonstrates how with this type of easy handling you can get away with using sleights.
John G. uses this in his Gemini Prediction and it is a fooler.
One hundred percent of the shots you don't take don't go in - Wayne Gretzky
My favorite part is putting the gaffs in the spectators hands...it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling inside! - Bob Kohler
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Jaxon
Inner circle
Kalamazoo, Mi.
2459 Posts
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Posted: Feb 11, 2006 6:43pm
Thanks so much for the kind words photius. That means a lot to me.
I like Si's point when he said:
"IT should of course be used sparingly - there is a difference between the occasional 'slip' and looking unprofessional."
I agree with that. There are exceptions such as an act based on the performer being clumsy. Or to the extreme of the example I made from the Houdini movie. But it's usually best used in a very subtle way. It's a matter of building up the moment but not letting them know that you are.
This also makes me think of other kinds of "mistakes" that aren't really a matter of being clumsy but that have the same effect. For example we can sometimes appear to be a little absent minded. That's used in a lot of tricks. For example let's say you need to palm something out of your right pants pocket. First you need an excuse to put your hand there. We can usually do this by putting something in that pocket but that's not always logical. So we can act a little absent minded and search our pocket for something else. Maybe we announce that we need a magic wand. So your right hand goes into your pocket in search for it (You secretly palm the object) It's not there so we go to another pocket and find the wand.
The point is we don't always have to appear to be in total control. We can make mistakes, even planned ones, then still make it look good and get that reaction.
I just had a kind of funny idea for a metaphor for this.
"No one would be surprised to see a man fly wearing a blue suit with a red cape and a big "S" on his chest.".. 
Ron Jaxon
"The map is not the Territory"
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Paolo Venturini
Veteran user
Lucca (I.) - New York City
384 Posts
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Posted: Feb 11, 2006 7:47pm
Another great post, Ron.
I totally agree with you. In my performance I try to keep the things simple, sometime even the spectator shuffle the deck better than me, and the finale of the effect is more amazing.
I've seen once a magi made some wonderful flourish with cards and shaffle the deck in a professional manner, and everybody felt bad because he was asking if they could do what he do. The people react with: "That's easy for you, you are a magician...".
www.jokermagicweb.com
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rikbrooks
Inner circle
Olive Branch, Mississippi
1297 Posts
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Posted: Feb 12, 2006 8:59am
Well, there's clumsiness and then there's clumsiness. I use the cowboy persona because, well, I'm sorta forced into it. That's how I grew up and who I am. Unlike so many other cultures where the person can, with force of will and practice, slip into another culture, being a cowboy seems to go straight to the bone. I could never pull off being anything else. Well, probably could but the training would be more than it's worth.
So, for good or ill, that's what I am. I decided years ago just to go with it. I exagerrated it. Performing I speak even more slowly. I drawl even more. I move slowly and with a quiet, easy gait. I never force anything.
For example, in the 2-0-2 move in cups and balls where the spectator thinks there is a ball under each cup because I've just put one under each cup, I raise the cup saying, "OK, here's a ball... well, no, I reckon not..." as I lift the center cup. Then I lift the left cup "... well, here's a ball anyway... no, that there's two balls. I reckon we know where the other'un got off to, don't we?"
More than once I've heard people say that they liked my style because they can identify with it. Mickey Silver gave me what has to be one of the best compliments I've ever had, "Rik, people just WANT to like you."
"Well, ain't that just slicker'n deer guts on a brass doorknob?"
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Brad Burt
Inner circle
1442 Posts
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Posted: Feb 13, 2006 11:30pm
The only problem I see is that if you are going to be clumsy you have to do so consistantly and always be clumsy. Other wise the cognitive dissonance between one routine and the next would act to move the audience away AND make obvious what you are doing: Acting clumsy. It would be like being crippled one moment and the next you are just fine.
I played with this one time and it works quite well, but you have to go into the part of the clumsy handler and make it part of your character. If done well you can really make the magic seem to happen apart from the manipulation of the performer. Which I guess is the whole point. Clumsiness WILL tend to separate what happens from the person making it happen. Consider slipping on a banana. What motivates the person to fall is the banana, not the person deciding to fall. In the Clumsy Magician mode of performance what motivates the magic to happen is not the magician, but the accidents that the magician has while 'trying' to be a magician. Or, not the accidents exactly, but what happens aside from the accident or the clumsy handling of the performer. The clumsiness acts as camouflage, hiding the true skill of the performer. This is a very hard act to sell, because magicians in the minds of most folks are NOT supposed to be clumsy. Many think of us as con men, but not clumsy con men. Part of what makes this appealing in an odd way is just the fact that folks don't expect it! But, they won't believe it if it is turned on and off.
It is also a problematic character to play for the following reason: It TENDS toward stage waits. Consider what a clumsy magician 'might' be like: He drops his cards let's say...what does he do now? If he takes the time to pick them up that can be a really fatal stage wait unless the performer is a raconteur or better than average skill. In other words the performance must still move along in some manner that the 'lack of apparent skill' on the part of the performer does NOT GET IN THE WAY of the audiences enjoyment thereof. Entertainment still happens despite the clumsy performance. AND...at the end, the audience suddenly realizes that they have been had. They have seen a master of not just magic, but of acting.
Note also that properly used the clumsy performer can build apprehension and conflict in ways that the standard performer can. Consider the old silent film stars like Buster Keaton. Remember the horror building as he stumbles about on a train top or the ledge of a building. What will happen to this clumsy oaf? You get the idea. Properly written and acted a magician could be put in a situation where you WANT him to succeed, but you are pretty sure he won't because he is such a klutz. The audience begins to internalize the angst of the performer and starts to root for him. It's the hero in danger playlet. The performer becomes Dudley Doright stumbling towards danger and failure only to be saved at the last minute.
In the magicians case he is saved by completing his magical quest in the form of whatever doomed seeming routine he is doing. In some ways this might be the most dramatic of all possible modes for a magician to go into. It is seldom seen because it is difficult to sustain. Best,
Brad Burt
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Jaxon
Inner circle
Kalamazoo, Mi.
2459 Posts
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Posted: Feb 14, 2006 2:56pm
Great points Brad.
I doubt that many will make an act based on clumsiness for a lot of the reasons you pointed out. It's very hard to seem clumsy yet still be in control. I have seen some performers use it very successfully though. One that comes to mind was actually a juggler/magician. I can't remember his name but the act was with a Mic stand. It was so funny I had tears from laughter.
You're mention of the old slap sticks comedies reminds me of seeing Charlie Chaplin roller skating. You can tell he's a great roller skater because to be able to look that clumsy yet stay on your feet would be very hard to do.
Most of us wouldn't go to that extreme though. It's not a point of seeming clumsy. It's a matter of not looking so good at it that the outcome is a surprise. If a performer does some fancy flourish moves with cards or coins for instance. Let's say they do a coin roll then vanish the coin. The vanish might not be all that surpriseing after the flourish.
Ron Jaxon
"The map is not the Territory"
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Brad Burt
Inner circle
1442 Posts
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Posted: Feb 14, 2006 4:20pm
Dear Ron:
This is a stimulating topic. I see your point above and agree...to a point. Let me explain. John Mendoza wrote a book, a little hardback, on magic presentation that is long out-of-print. It was on close-up presentation which I thinks more closely fits this discussion. One of the things that John talks about in this book is that he WANTS folks to attribute HIM with the magic that happens. He wants them to acknowledge that it is HIS skill that provides the magic.
Now, look at your statement above, "It's a matter of not looking so good at it that the outcome is a surprise." What I think you are getting at is what I call Reductio Magic. That is magic that has the technique and skill of the performer so disquised that it just seems to happen whether the performer is there or not. Look carefully at what you said, if the skill of the performer is so hidden and THAT is what provokes the surprise or even hightens the surprise...then 'why' the magician? What good is the performer. See what I mean. This is a great discussion, because it cuts right to the heart of the performing philosophy of anyone who does magic. It also asks the question: Why is this or that person doing magic? It the magic seems to spring spontaeneously from the air, then why do we need the performer. The performer is then reduced to a prop in his own show. Before anyone thinks I am being critical I ACTUALLY BELIEVED THAT THIS WOULD BE THE ULTIMATE manner in which to present magic at one point! I look for Ron's postings because they almost always provoke me to think about what was said.
Look at it this way. What if you could present your magic in such a manner that in truth YOU did not seem to be the one making the magic happen? What do you THINK about that? It is not necessarily a bad thing. You could have a magic character that seems lost in the wonder of what seems to happen around him or her. No skill would seem visible to explain the mystery of what is happening.
Now, ratchet it up a tiny bit. Everything the same, but you toss in a one-handed cut. At that point I suggest that all things being equal your audience will have a disorienting moment of cognitive dissonance. Once that moment passes you may be able to pull them back on track, maybe not. I'm not all sure which would be better.
Not ratchet it up all the way to other extreme: Going in you SHOW your audience that the 'man' is you. You are the one whose skill and expertise are the activating force behind the magic they are seeing! And, you go from there. Note that consistency here is as important as it is in the first illustration. What if in the middle of your show you suddenly dropped the cards twice. You muffed a shuffle and whatever..... Your audience would wonder whether your M.S. had just kicked in or the 'pills' you took just before the show. It's not good for them. With magic the audience has enough to worry about: Is this moron REALLY going to burn my hundred dollar bill or bust my Rolex up in a sock... What I am arguing for is self aware consistency on the part of the performer. Switching characters or traits in performance CAN be done, but it can't done willy nilly.
If you are going to be the clumsy, half clumsy or whatever style you are going for really think it through. Took me years and years to figure this stuff out. Go forth brethren and fry an audience down to baco bits. With respect,
Brad Burt
Follow me at Twitter...
http://twitter.com/bradburtmagic
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Jaxon
Inner circle
Kalamazoo, Mi.
2459 Posts
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Posted: Feb 16, 2006 2:56pm
Great post and great points. I agree that one should put a lot of thought into these kinds of things. Like you basically said, It has to fit your performing style.
Take for instance my cigarette trick Outsmokin. That's the kind of trick that happens "to" the magicians instead of by the magicians. But at the same time the magician is doing it. Man, this can get confusing..
I like the idea of presenting myself as less then perfect. I know that won't fit everyone. Norm Neilson comes to mind when he does the stunt where he spreads the cards across his forearm. Tosses them up and catches them. I've seen him perform this a number of times and he always misses the first try. Then later in the show he attempts to do it again and this time he's able to do it. The audience applauds simply because he was finally able to pull it off.
Here's a thought. Imagine a magician being a little clumsy. Not to much though. His shuffles and spreads just aren't all that pretty. Then at some point in the performance after he's done a few tricks he suddenly starts to do some fancy fans and cuts. If presented right this could be like an effect on it's own.
This has got my mind going in different directions too. I can think of reasons why it would be beneficial or harmful to be a little clumsy depending on the trick and performing style.
Ron Jaxon
"The map is not the Territory"
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Foucault
Elite user
New Jersey, USA
424 Posts
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Posted: Feb 16, 2006 8:56pm
It was certainly effective for Cardini, when the magic happened to him.
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Chrystal
Inner circle
Canada/France
1528 Posts
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Posted: Feb 16, 2006 10:14pm
All good post so far and I've enjoyed reading the different views. My only concern would be the magician pulling it off would have to have some good acting skills. If on one hand they are too good at the appearance of being clumsy - this may cause some audience members to be uncomfortable for the performer.
I mention this as I was sitting with a fairly well known magician one day, and he struggled with his slieghts. He's getting on in years and his hands are becoming arthritic. While he was able to execute the effect at the end of his routine, admitedly that was an uncomfortable moment for him and for me. On the other hand one that appeared clumsy and did so with humor would put the audience at ease.
I think the right balance has to be found. Just something to think about.
Chrystal
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