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Vandy Grift
Inner circle
Milwaukee
3505 Posts
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Posted: Mar 3, 2006 10:59am
It's not enough to be able to do it...
You gotta be able to do at 8:15 PM, Saturday Night, at Madison Square Garden. Know what I'm saying?
Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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J0ma
New user
Finland
59 Posts
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Posted: Mar 3, 2006 11:43am
Hmm, you mean that in a game its just more than skills and playing cards? Its also about your guts :)
-J0ma-
Magic Is Life
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Vandy Grift
Inner circle
Milwaukee
3505 Posts
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Posted: Mar 3, 2006 11:57am
JOma. That's not quite what I was getting at.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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J0ma
New user
Finland
59 Posts
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Posted: Mar 3, 2006 12:17pm
Yeah, I just guessed something 
Magic Is Life
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Vandy Grift
Inner circle
Milwaukee
3505 Posts
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Posted: Mar 3, 2006 12:24pm
That's allright,guesses are fine. It's not really a quiz, just something to think about.
Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13343 Posts
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Posted: Mar 3, 2006 12:49pm
Cheating is a Rolla coaster ride that can stretch your nerves and ability to the limit but I don’t know what you mean Vardy. You do not have to cheat at any set time; If your not in the mood there is always another night to make the play.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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Vandy Grift
Inner circle
Milwaukee
3505 Posts
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Posted: Mar 3, 2006 1:10pm
BUT...when it is time to move you HAVE to be able to do it.
The quote is a paraphrase of something Jack Dempsey once said. The point is, It's one thing to be able to do a move in your living room. Or perform a move 99 out of 100 times. But when the time comes to do it for real you must be able to do it and do it perfectly at that VERY moment. No exceptions. Or else you're a bust.
In Dempseys case the point was "yeah, I can knock out fighter X, but it's not enough just to be able to knock out fighter X, you have to be able to do it at 8:15 PM, Saturday night, at Madison Square Garden."
It's not enough to be able to false shuffle, shift the cut, or ring in a cooler or whatever else you may want to do... You have to do it at 8:15 PM, Saturday Night, at Madison Square Garden...So to speak.
Are you feeling me?
Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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J0ma
New user
Finland
59 Posts
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Posted: Mar 3, 2006 4:28pm
I kinda get what you are saying.. I think :D
Magic Is Life
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rannie
Inner circle
4338 Posts
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Posted: Mar 3, 2006 4:42pm
Vandy, are you talking about "clutch time"?
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."
-Rannie Raymundo-
aka The Boss
aka The Manila Enforcer
www.rannieraymundo.com
www.tapm.proboards80.net
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Vandy Grift
Inner circle
Milwaukee
3505 Posts
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Posted: Mar 3, 2006 4:46pm
That's exactly right Rannie! Or you might say "The Moment of Truth".
Point being (and this goes for magic as well as cheating) when it's clutch time or the moment of truth. You better be able to pull it off, and pull it off perfectly.
Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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card cheat
Elite user
426 Posts
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Posted: Mar 3, 2006 6:14pm
Vandy,
I like what you say. Unfortunately, many members here simply cannot fathom what this truly means, or entails.
I also have to be fair and admit that "Clutch Time" just might be the time that I am least likely to be caught moving. Does this make me a "weak" cheat? I don't think so, but others might. One thing is for sure: I don't do what I do seeking approval from others. I don't take my ego to games, nor do I take it to the bank.
As I said, I like your style. I do think it to be comically ironic, however, that you call this moment, in which the cheating must be performed perfectly, the "Moment of Truth!" Funny, don't you think?
It's not even so much about a perfect move, as it is about the perfect mind. Technique is never a finished product but, even the best technique can't save the poor decision maker.
CC
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Chris Stolz
Inner circle
Mississauga, Ontario
1691 Posts
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Posted: Mar 4, 2006 10:40am
Great post Vandy, you are so very right!
CRYSTAL CLEAR: The Ultimate Automatic Prediction Chest
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13343 Posts
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Posted: Mar 4, 2006 11:04am
I think how much nerve that is required to cheat depends on many factors. “Cheating at Cards” covers a broad spectrum of activity. Some of, if not most of the more successful plays that have raked in millions have required little nerve or skill. The most successful plays in history have been based on brain power rather than will power. In fact I would say that the more nerve and skill that is needed the less likely it is that it will be to rake in a lot of money.
I'm just a pilgrim at heart, oh so pure and genteel,
Watch me in Las Vegas when I'm at the spinning wheel.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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card cheat
Elite user
426 Posts
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Posted: Mar 4, 2006 12:20pm
Quote:
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On 2006-03-04 11:04, tommy wrote:
In fact I would say that the more nerve and skill that is needed the less likely it is that it will be to rake in a lot of money.
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How do you figure this?
By this logic, cheating a bunch of 8 year olds out of their milk money would be more profitable than taking off a casino for hundreds of thousands.
Well?
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Vandy Grift
Inner circle
Milwaukee
3505 Posts
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Posted: Mar 4, 2006 1:13pm
Quote:
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On 2006-03-03 18:14, card cheat wrote:
I also have to be fair and admit that "Clutch Time" just might be the time that I am least likely to be caught moving. Does this make me a "weak" cheat? I don't think so, but others might. CC
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Card Cheat,
That is right. It's not about when you move or how you move. The point is that WHENEVER you decide to move... It automatically becomes 8:15 PM, Saturday Night at Madison Square Garden. Time to deliver. Go time. Call it what you will, when it's time to deliver, you gotta deliver the goods. No exceptions, no excuses.
Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13343 Posts
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Posted: Mar 4, 2006 1:27pm
Yes. Many see the casino cheater in a classical sense, an expert mechanic capable of amazing technical skill. Yet the truth is, in the majority of the most successful casino scams in our history, technical skill plays a minor role. It's all about the application.
Whereas a magician might be familiar with different false shuffles for controlling a slug, he may not know how such elementary technique has been used to scam millions. And, he may not realize that the most successful scams are not as spectacular as many think, that most involved massive conspiracies and inside collusion, that many employed the most blatant techniques imaginable, and so on.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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card cheat
Elite user
426 Posts
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Posted: Mar 4, 2006 1:34pm
Again, well said Vandy.
It's true, and I was not denying in my original post the need for reliable "on-demand" technique. I was only saying that flawless technique is completely worthless, and can actually be the cause of a negative effect, in the abscence of rationality.
CC
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bishthemagish
Inner circle
5582 Posts
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Posted: Mar 4, 2006 2:24pm
Quote:
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On 2006-03-03 10:59, Vandy Grift wrote:
It's not enough to be able to do it...
You gotta be able to do at 8:15 PM, Saturday Night, at Madison Square Garden. Know what I'm saying?
Vandy
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Vandy thank you for posting this. It sums up doing performance magic in the real world. The force HAS to work. The cull has to be done smoothly and in real time in front of people.
Doing magic for friends is a lot different that doing it because it is Thursday and seven PM. And I might add that advantage playing at the card table - the same rules apply.
Great post Vandy
Just a few thoughts and opinion.
Glenn Bishop - Bish The Magish!
Magician, Card Sharp and Master Hypnotist.
http://glennbishopmagicandcards.blogspot.com
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rannie
Inner circle
4338 Posts
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Posted: Mar 5, 2006 2:06am
Great to see you back Glenn! With out the search function, its hard to track you guys!
Indeed it is different doing "it" in clutch time. I know a mechanic, who delivers at times like these. Unfortunately , he is in hidding now on an island (one of the thousands) in the Philippines. I met him in the mid 80's and I have learned quite a bit from him. He was my first teacher. He was no, Forte or Lennart Green! Not even close to Glenn, but he was natural and he always had a reason for the way he moved. Im afraid I cannot post exactly what I saw and what he showed me. I know the mechs here would understand. Oh, I know this is off topic, but I just want to add that this guy "wanbol" (that is a ***ized English for One Ball) only knew 2 or 3 tricks. He was not a magician. As a matter of fact he refuses to do card tricks for obvious reasons.
It does not matter how smooth you are, its how you can go deep inside you and calm yourself. Relaxation when needed the most. Its not only fear, or pressure! Excitement and anticipation gets the better of us at 8:15 on sat nights. The inner guilt too! As my good friend Glenn stated, this applies to magic as well.
Rannie
aka The Boss aka The Manila Enforcer
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."
-Rannie Raymundo-
aka The Boss
aka The Manila Enforcer
www.rannieraymundo.com
www.tapm.proboards80.net
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bishthemagish
Inner circle
5582 Posts
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Posted: Mar 5, 2006 12:37pm
Thanks rannie,
I think that also what Vandy is pointing out is the "Nerve thing" that we all have to get past in order to do our stuff in front of people. The hand shake thing and that feeling we get just before we go on. Getting past that is part of what we have to do in order to move in real time in front of a real audience.
Or at a poker table I would expect.
Having the nerve and being able to do it at crunch time I feel is the difference between magic theory and moves and the talk about which move is the best - and the real world where doing the move during crunch time - then you find out what really works - and then use "WHAT WORKS"! Because what works at crunch time is most often the most practical and the best way to do it.
Just a few thoughts and opinion.
Glenn Bishop - Bish The Magish!
Magician, Card Sharp and Master Hypnotist.
http://glennbishopmagicandcards.blogspot.com
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Mr. Z
Special user
Las Vegas, NV
826 Posts
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Posted: Mar 5, 2006 2:50pm
Quote:
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On 2006-03-04 13:27, tommy wrote:
Yes. Many see the casino cheater in a classical sense, an expert mechanic capable of amazing technical skill. Yet the truth is, in the majority of the most successful casino scams in our history, technical skill plays a minor role. It's all about the application.
Whereas a magician might be familiar with different false shuffles for controlling a slug, he may not know how such elementary technique has been used to scam millions. And, he may not realize that the most successful scams are not as spectacular as many think, that most involved massive conspiracies and inside collusion, that many employed the most blatant techniques imaginable, and so on.
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That would be from David Malek's interview with Forte. Might want to cite it next time...
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13343 Posts
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Posted: Mar 5, 2006 3:26pm
Sorry that is so, but I have cited it to the same people before not long ago. When speaking about the same subjest. I think they know as well as you who said it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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bishthemagish
Inner circle
5582 Posts
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Posted: Mar 5, 2006 5:13pm
Quote:
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On 2006-03-04 13:27, tommy wrote:
Yes. Many see the casino cheater in a classical sense, an expert mechanic capable of amazing technical skill. Yet the truth is, in the majority of the most successful casino scams in our history, technical skill plays a minor role. It's all about the application.
Whereas a magician might be familiar with different false shuffles for controlling a slug, he may not know how such elementary technique has been used to scam millions. And, he may not realize that the most successful scams are not as spectacular as many think, that most involved massive conspiracies and inside collusion, that many employed the most blatant techniques imaginable, and so on.
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Hey Tommy - speaking for myself I have to say that I have little interest in Casino cheating or beating the bank at a Casino. In fact I have never played any kind of card game in a casino. I have only done the slots while waiting for a show to start.
I have to say I am not much interested in a casino game of any time.
When I played cards it was in a hotel while on the road or at a person's house in small little games also in a few night club and pool hall rooms but that was a long time ago. I do not play card anymore. My interest in the poker card sharp moves is only for the use in magic. I find it interesting that magicians have an interest in this kind of thing at all.
In fact I think some magicians do have a good idea of casino cheating. But being a magician I don't see what use it is for magic. Erdnase is different he talks about the friendly little home games and how a single guy without a mob can do it with the right moves. I can see a use for what Erdnase wrote in his book. But see little use in using that in a card game because I don't play cards right now. But I would not sit in on a game in which I could not shuffle the deck or touch the cards.
I guess what I am trying to say or asking a lot of what is talked about has little use for magic. And the subject of casino cheating has even less use for magic and not that much use for an advantage player. Because I think - and I could be wrong - but doesn't most of the advantage playing go on outside the casino?
Just a few thoughts and opinion.
Glenn Bishop - Bish The Magish!
Magician, Card Sharp and Master Hypnotist.
http://glennbishopmagicandcards.blogspot.com
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Vandy Grift
Inner circle
Milwaukee
3505 Posts
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Posted: Mar 6, 2006 10:02am
Hey guys. I made that post for myself as much as anything. It's something I think about alot. And Glenn is right, I'm talking about the "nerve thing" and ALL of the things that are necessary to do your thing in real time in front of real people. Whether your thing is cheating at cards or doing magic for laypeople. It's about the study, practice and mental preparation coming together at the right time so that you can perform. Without hesitation, without screwing up.
That quote and the idea behind it is really just stating the obvious.
Bruce Lee once said something to the effect of "When my opponent expands, I contract, when he contracts I expand. And when the opportunity presents itself, I do not hit. IT HITS ALL BY ITSELF."
I'm striving to bring my card work to the level that will allow me to do it at 8:15 PM, Saturday Night at the Garden. And ALSO, to the level that when it's time to pull a move, I don't move. IT MOVES ALL BY ITSELF.
As Bish would say "Just some thoughts"
Vandy
CC, I was laughing at what you posted this weekend. I guess it is a bit funny to call the exact moment of decpetion the "moment of truth". But then again, our "Truth" is not their "Truth". The marks "Truth" is not the same as the cheaters and the audiences "Truth" is not the same as the magicians.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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bishthemagish
Inner circle
5582 Posts
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Posted: Mar 6, 2006 10:38am
Hey Vandy I am glad you posted it and I think it is one of the best points to read in the Café that has been posted all year.
The nerve thing is interesting and one of the things that stops many magicians from performing magic in front of an audience. The only way to get past this is to do shows lots of shows. But if you lay off the hand shaking comes back. Vernon talked about this a lot in his writings. And I talked about it with Don Alan who said he went through it at the start of every show.
He also said it was the sign of a true artist.
The interesting thing is that I think that advantage players have to deal with this when they move in a card table game - the same nerve thing the magician has to deal with. Vernon mentions this in Revelations in the section that holdouts are used. He said something like using drugs or booze to counteract the nerve thing when using these devices.
I think that is why drugs and booze have played a big part in show business. I have known a lot of show people that drank booze big time. Well I think they have the nerve thing and think they need the booze to get past it. To bad the booze also destroyed a lot of good acts as well.
Just some thoughts..
Just a few thoughts and opinion.
Glenn Bishop - Bish The Magish!
Magician, Card Sharp and Master Hypnotist.
http://glennbishopmagicandcards.blogspot.com
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Danny Hustle
Inner circle
Boston, MA USA
2394 Posts
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Posted: Mar 6, 2006 11:05am
Vandy,
Great stuff also a great book by Dempsey Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching and Aggressive Defense
A lot of the stuff in that book applies to a lot of things in life. I know it's where I learned the falling step.
Anyway, to expand and contract on what you said I think it is a bit easier to understand if it is put like this:
It's one thing to be able to do it in your living room it's another thing to do it because it's Tuesday night and you are being paid to do it. Oh and you feel like crap, your car died, and your wife your mortgage payment, and your girlfriend, are all a month late.
It is when crisis meets opportunity that we all get to see who's going to be a Sigfried and who's gonna be a Roy.
Yaknowwhadimean?
Best,
Dan-
Professor Danny Hustle Boston Magician
The Busker's cafe - open for business
"MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm
Reinstate J.R.!
©1999-2013 Daniel Denney all rights reserved.
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Vandy Grift
Inner circle
Milwaukee
3505 Posts
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Posted: Mar 6, 2006 11:21am
Danny,
I hear ya brother! That's what it's all about. You (me) have got to be able to deliver. No matter the situation, no matter what else is bothering you. No matter who is watching and what they may expect. As the gamblers here might say "when the chips are down".
You simply have got to be able to do it.
I'm gonna look for that book, I'm a pretty big fan of Dempsey. Have been ever since I was a kid. I'm very intrigued by this "falling step" you speak of. What's the deal there?
Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Danny Hustle
Inner circle
Boston, MA USA
2394 Posts
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Posted: Mar 6, 2006 1:30pm
The falling step is where Bruce Lee got his "One inch punch" That is where Mr. Lee claims to have gotten it anyway. It is also what gave Dempsey that devastating jab.
There are several old fights where Dempsey knocks his opponent out or in a couple of cases across the ring with a very benign looking left jab.
That is the falling step. It allows you to put all of your weight into movement and focus all that inertia behind the first two knuckles of your left hand.
Like a second deal or anything else worth knowing it takes a lot of practice but it is well worth knowing.
Best,
Dan-
Professor Danny Hustle Boston Magician
The Busker's cafe - open for business
"MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm
Reinstate J.R.!
©1999-2013 Daniel Denney all rights reserved.
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Vandy Grift
Inner circle
Milwaukee
3505 Posts
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Posted: Mar 6, 2006 2:11pm
But, Danny, can you do it at 8:15 PM, Saturday Night at Madison Square Garden? LOL.
That sounds pretty cool. I recently saw somewhere on this site that Darren Brown was doing something with the one inch punch in his act. There was a video clip but I didn't watch it. Now I can't find it with the search engine down.
Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Andrei
Veteran user
Romania
353 Posts
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Posted: Mar 6, 2006 2:58pm
Vandy - in his video series, Derren achieves the one inch punch effect, while never touching the volunteer. It's very entertaining to watch.
Andrei
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