| Go to page 1 ~ 2 (Next) |
|
|
Burt Yaroch
Inner circle
Dallas,TX
1097 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 29, 2002 12:54pm
It seems there is a huge disparity between some of the pros and hobbyists, with the amateurs perhaps somewhere in the middle, with regard to performing in casual settings when asked.
What are your thoughts on performing pro bono magic?
Are there certain circumstances when you will/won't do it?
What is your rationale in making this decision? 
Yakworld.
|
p.b.jones
Inner circle
Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K.
2643 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 29, 2002 2:26pm
I posted this elsewhere but posted it here as I think it is relavant.
In my opinion, in most cases not all,
when magic is a hobby or when you are not doing that many paid shows. you are keen to perform and do so whenever possible to friends, family at social meetings, at the pub (bar) for example. I myself was like this and carried stuff with me. However, once you are performing maybe 300 -500 shows a year this need diminishes (not dissapears)
I probably perform unpaid improptu about 2 or 3 times a year. so I am not going to carry props just in case for 365 days.
Pat Page told me he would never perform unpaid socially unless he was absolutely begged into doing so as a favour. He doesn't even discus magic or bring up his occupation.
phillip
visit
www.absolutely-unforgettable.co.uk
|
Scott F. Guinn
Inner circle
FINALLY A DADDY!
6480 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 29, 2002 2:57pm
I'll do unpaid impromptu magic--when I feel like it and the circumstances are good and when the people asking are viewing it as a privelege and not that it is an expectation.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn (Finally a daddy!) @ScottFGuinn
|
spfranz
Regular user
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
137 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 29, 2002 10:01pm
I've heard this discussion before as well. I'm not a pro so I don't fully understand some of the logic. I do understand not performing impromptu for half an hour at a party, but I've heard pros say they won't ever perform anything impromptu. Some say "if you want to see some magic, here's my business card".
My question is this - why not have an effect to at least hand out the business card? In other words, have an effect that is "advertising". Maybe it's not handing out your card, maybe it's some other miracle.
If you were going to hire a singer or band for a function, would you hire them without ever having heard them? I wouldn't. I wouldn't hire a magician without seeing something first either.
Just a question.
Never ask a dog to watch your food.
|
Gianni
Special user
WILMINGTON, DE
989 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 29, 2002 10:54pm
I think I not only understand but I agree with the pros here.
When I was a law student, I was very flattered to have someone ask me a legal question. When I was a young lawyer, I was still flattered and was happy to oblige free of charge. But after many years, I had no inclination to even discuss law socially let alone offer free advice. And I think this phenomenon exists in almost any occupation. When you do something every day to make a living, you have no desire to do it on your free time.
The next question deals with giving someone an example of what you do. Of course we do not request this of most people we hire. We don't ask plumbers, doctors, etc. for demos. We might ask for references instead. And I can't imagine a pro with a show who could do their show justice with a little impromptu bit. In fact, a little sponge ball business or simple card trick probably has little chance of impressing a prospect to hire you for a gig, and might even diminish what you have to offer.
Just my thoughts.
Gianni
|
Burt Yaroch
Inner circle
Dallas,TX
1097 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 30, 2002 12:08am
Even with Gianni's great analogy I still don't see it. If law is your passion I would think you would jump at the chance to discuss it with others who are in awe of what you do.
But this isn't law, it's magic. You're not handing out free advice, you're stepping into the spotlight to do something you love.
Is that what I'm missing here? Have these magi for sale just become so dispassionate about the art that they will only create wonderment when offered financial compensation? It can't be so. Say it ain't so.
And Phillip, please tell me that you misquoted Pat Page. I cannot believe he said, "(I) would never perform unpaid socially unless (I) was absolutely begged." If he did say it, please lie and tell me he didn't. That comment leaves me utterly speechless, disheartened, and some other stuff.
Someone please explain this to me.
Yakworld.
|
p.b.jones
Inner circle
Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K.
2643 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 30, 2002 3:25am
Hi,
Sorry but that is exactly what Pat Page said.
Now for me, I will perform impromptu a trick or two if asked a couple of times. but this rarely happens. Unless you sit around in social situations doing coin rolls or fancy cut and flourishes, as lots of people do not know you are a magicain and your friends have likely seen you perform before. As I said possibly only 2 or 3 times a year this happens to me.
also consider this, if you do a 30 mins impromtu performance and someone says, Oh that's good. I have a ------- can you perform there, what do you cost. When you turn around and say Ł200.00 ($300.00) or whatever for a 30 min cabaret spot the chances are they will back out
phillip
visit
www.absolutely-unforgettable.co.uk
|
Peter Marucci
Inner circle
5388 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 30, 2002 9:13am
As a pro for a number of years now, I have to side with the non-pros in this thread.
Sure, I perform if asked; I'm happy to.
Although I certainly wouldn't do a 30-minute impromptu program!
That would be cruel and unusual punishment for the audience/guests who may have only been asking out of politeness. (That may be Pat Page's point.)
However, if they REALLY want to see something, I always have one or two "quickies" with me or can do one or two, without anything.
It would simply be ungracious to do otherwise.
The late Tony Slydini (and they don't come much more "pro" than that!) would happily perform freely for others in just about any kind of setting. His only restriction was that HE picked the location (for the angles).
If you are a magician, you are supposed to "magish".
Take it as a compliment: People are fascinated by what you do and want to see you do it; they may not be fascinated by a widget-maker, which is why they don't ask him to do his job for free at a party.
cheers,
Peter Marucci
showtimecol@aol.com
|
tboehnlein
Inner circle
ohio
1702 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 30, 2002 9:50am
I agree with Peter here, I will perform when asked, but never volunteer. I perform magic professionally because I love doing it. I understand the analogies & do not disagree but what I believe may not neccesarily be right for others. When I am asked, though, they get one quick impactful effect & no more.
|
spfranz
Regular user
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
137 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 30, 2002 11:39am
Quote:
|
On 2002-01-29 22:54, Gianni wrote:
And I can't imagine a pro with a show who could do their show justice with a little impromptu bit. In fact, a little sponge ball business or simple card trick probably has little chance of impressing a prospect to hire you for a gig, and might even diminish what you have to offer.
Just my thoughts.
Gianni
|
|
Well, maybe if your show is a large stage illusion show then explaining to them that you do large illusions would be in order.
But if you do any close-up, parlor, walk around, etc. - then I would think that showing them a mind blowing close up effect would help a lot. I don't want to re-hash the entire David Blaine thing, but I think that's why lay people loved the show so much. Most of them have never seen really good close up magic. The comments that I get from people often have to do with "well, when they are up there on stage with those fancy boxes and trap doors in the stage, they can do just about anything. But this happened RIGHT HERE IN MY HAND!"
Now if you're going to do some throw away "bit", then why bother? But if you do a really good effect for them, I think it can't do anything but impress them.
Just my two cents.
Scott
Never ask a dog to watch your food.
|
magiker
Loyal user
Sweden
283 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 30, 2002 5:20pm
I have mixed feelings about this.
Yes I feel honoured when asked to "show us a trick", but sometimes it goes a bit too far, if for example, at a party as a guest, your there to enjoy yourself and unwind. To constantly have people ask you to show them a "trick" soon wears thin.
I am a pro and will do one or two but then draw a line. Of course if it was to my advantage then I go for it.
I agree with Gianni. I supply references and will, if asked do an audition.
Magiker
Believe in the possibility of the impossible
|
Geoff Williams
Special user
St. Pete Beach, FL
606 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 30, 2002 5:30pm
I agree with those saying, basically, "Leave them wanting more."
One or two effects at the most should be sufficient entertainment, if presented correctly.
Don't bore your audience but don't snub them either. Treat them right. If it wasn't for audiences, most of us would only have our camcorders and practice mirrors.
How sad THAT would be!
"Saját légpárnás tele van angolnák."
(Hungarian for "My hovercraft is full of eels")
|
Scott F. Guinn
Inner circle
FINALLY A DADDY!
6480 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2002 2:35am
As I said earlier I will (and most often DO) perform for free impromptu when asked--if asked politely by people I enjoy. However, you have to take the situation into consideration. For example, I don't want to steal someone else's thunder on their special day. If I am at an anniversary or birthday party, for example, and a guest wants to see me do a trick , but that would take the focus off the guest(s) of honor, I decline, and offer to show them something at a more appropriate time.
I guess my point is, there's a big difference between being ASKED to be the center of attention by the host at his party, and going there PLANNING to be the center of attention, when the party is in someone else's honor, and you are not on the agenda. I fear many magicians fall into the latter category rather than the former, and I think it's just bad form!
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn (Finally a daddy!) @ScottFGuinn
|
p.b.jones
Inner circle
Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K.
2643 Posts
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2002 2:49am
I think that's it when it comes down to it
most professional performers who have replied here will only perform if asked.
Which I assume is not all that often anyway
unless you are famous.
as I said earlier probably 2 - 3 times a year for me
phillip
visit
www.absolutely-unforgettable.co.uk
|
Stephen Long
Inner circle
1479 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 1, 2002 12:23am
Quote:
|
On 2002-01-30 00:08, yakandjak wrote:
Is that what I'm missing here? Have these magi for sale just become so dispassionate about the art that they will only create wonderment when offered financial compensation? It can't be so. Say it ain't so.
|
|
I'm totally with Yak on this.
I enjoy performing.
I soak up reactions like an expensive brand of kitchen paper towel.
I enjoy magic.
Even if I was a pro I would hope to God that I hadn't reached the point where it's all about the money.
Enjoy magic, seize a moment.
I think every time you perform, YOU take something away from the performance too.
You grow (even if it's just a teeny tiny bit) as a magician.
Who knows? The next time someone asks to show you something and you refuse, it could have turned out to be one of those moments that reminds you why you started in the first place.
I'd like to finish with Yak here.
He says it so much better than I ever could:
"Have these magi for sale just become so dispassionate about the art that they will only create wonderment when offered financial compensation?"
Gonz
 
Hello.
|
magiker
Loyal user
Sweden
283 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 1, 2002 6:34pm
Just an added thought:
Someone somewhere mentioned Doctors and Lawyers. More close to magicians are musicians, singers, actors etc.
How many people would ask them to perform at a moments notice for no pay?
I know several singers who would never perform at a moments notice and also some that will jam with others that are performing.
Magiker
Believe in the possibility of the impossible
|
cardguy
Inner circle
Queens, New York
1171 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 1, 2002 6:56pm
I have to agree with what Scott said about performing in appropiate situations. I don't consider myself a pro, as I have only done a few paid gigs, and I'm still trying to get into the business side of magic. My current occupation is being a college student, but my friends and family know that I perform magic and sometimes, someone wants to see a trick in a social situation. If they ask I will do something gladly.
But sometimes you might be in a situation that is inappropiate to perform in. If that is the case then I tell them just that, and if they really want to see a trick I will do it later on that night at a more appropriate time or next time I see him/her. Of course I will say this in a polite way like "I'd love to but...".
But then again there might be situations where the 'vibe' isn't right. I really can't explain what this 'vibe' is, but, it's the feeling you get when you know that whatever effect you do, no matter how strong it is, it's not going to go over well.
It depends on the mood of the people and their personality. I'm very analytical about these situations, and I'd rather not perform a trick if I'm surrounded by a bunch of skeptics who ask me to perform a trick only so they can analyze the method for the next half hour and bombard me with questions as to "how I did it".
It has happened to me far too many times before I learned my lesson. In my circle of friends I know who these people are and I don't perform for them, even if they beg, because I know whats coming afterwards.
But then there are those friends who genuinely enjoy watching magic for what it is, and for those people I don't even hesitate performing for.
And then there are the strangers who found out that you do magic and approach you asking for a trick. Any stranger that seems genuinely interested in seeing a trick will most certainly see one from me. I can analyze a person based on how they react to my first effect, which I make sure is a strong effect. If they like it, I do one more and then thank them for their time.
So in general, I only perform if I feel like everyone involved is going to have a good time. If they don't, then your performance will mean nothing.
Frank G. a.k.a. Cardguy
|
Peter Marucci
Inner circle
5388 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 2, 2002 8:00am
Scott is, of course, correct; I was assuming that you (as magician) have been asked!
Nothing worse than someone forcing themselves on the party.
Well, I suppose there is: Forcing themselves on the party, when that party is being held in honor of someone else!
The main issue here seems to be whether or not to perform and, if so, when.
And almost every situation is different for every person.
So it's pretty much a case of "use your own judgment".
If you have to stop and think if it would be appropriate, then it probably isn't.
cheers,
Peter Marucci
showtimecol@aol.com
|
dorbolo
New user
53 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 4, 2002 5:57pm
This is a fascinating discussion, as it reveals so much about different conceptions of magic and motives for being magical.
I have frequently read complaints by professionals to the effect that some amateurs bring down the craft by unpolished presentation. That may be so. But, if the pros take an approach of "play for pay only" then a huge venue of presentation is left solely to the amateur. That is, only paying audiences (and tv viewers) will see high-end magic. Professionals who are concerned about the image of magic might help the craft by providing a taste of quality given the opportunity.
I am ever charmed by stories of Blackstone and Slydini working wonders impromptu (i.e. unpaid). Kenton Knepper tells stories about being prepared for on-the-spot responses to folks who have experienced his work (e.g. Kolossal Killer). I am encouraged by McBride's advice to be a magician 24/7 and I have heard that he practices what he preaches. I imagine that when these workers say "show me the money" they intend to do something amazing with it.
In good spirit,
Jon
|
Burt Yaroch
Inner circle
Dallas,TX
1097 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 7, 2002 11:34am
I have been patiently awaiting the input of more of the pros in the Cafe before I post my scathing rebuttal. It seems, however, that this topic is being purposefully avoided. Is this another of those "don't ask, don't tell" topics in magic or is it simply that these mercenary magicians do not wish to identify themselves as such?
Or perhaps, even better still, there aren't as many of these magicians out there as I had first thought. That would be nice, eh? 
Yakworld.
|
Scott F. Guinn
Inner circle
FINALLY A DADDY!
6480 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 7, 2002 5:08pm
See my last post on page one of this topic.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn (Finally a daddy!) @ScottFGuinn
|
p.b.jones
Inner circle
Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K.
2643 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 7, 2002 5:36pm
Hi,
I do not think that there are that many NO pay, No play Pro's out there. Most of us will perform a trick or two IF ASKED.
But ask yourself honestly if you do not go around telling everyone that your a magician
(as opposed to saying if asked what you do)
or as I used to do when I was a teenager sit performing coin rolls or fancy cuts until someone asks if your a magician then perform.
You might get asked to perform a couple of times a year.
As a full time pro I enjoy performing, studying and practicing magic, but because I perform so much for cash I have no need to Actively ecourage casual performances.
I do not remember who said it but it is true
"I love performing magic for the love of it and the more they pay me, the more I love it!"
phillip
visit
www.absolutely-unforgettable.co.uk
|
Burt Yaroch
Inner circle
Dallas,TX
1097 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 7, 2002 10:43pm
Quote:
| GreatScott said:
I guess my point is, there's a big difference between being ASKED to be the center of attention by the host at his party, and going there PLANNING to be the center of attention, when the party is in someone else's honor, and you are not on the agenda. I fear many magicians fall into the later category rather than the former, and I think it's just bad form!
|
|
I understand your point here Scott and I think it's a valid one. However I feel this harkens us to the impromptu argument. If you rolled in the magic case with your scantily clad assistant in tow (I gotta get me one a them) that would look like a prepared performance and would be bad form indeed. But if you were stocked with those not so impromptu impromptu items, you are simply responding to the hosts request.
Quote:
|
On 2002-02-07 17:36, p.b.jones wrote:
I do not think that there are that many
NO pay No play Pro's out there. Most of us will perform a trick or two IF ASKED.
|
|
Well that certainly is a relief to hear this said again. If it's just a few malcontents out there I can live with that.
Yakworld.
|
GothicBen
Veteran user
England
346 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 8, 2002 9:31am
Max Malini never performed ANYTHING unless it was to secure a gig, for money, or as a little favour before he asked for a BIG one!
Good idea, I think.
Ben
|
Burt Yaroch
Inner circle
Dallas,TX
1097 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 8, 2002 10:02am
What are you saying Ben? Magic should be all about me?
Very BAD idea, I think.
And I had just found my happy place. 
Yakworld.
|
Tom Cutts
Staff
Oakland, Ca
4523 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 8, 2002 5:04pm
Being a magician 24/7 also means knowing when to respect your art too much to perform under circumstances unflattering to the art. It is through such acts that the general public learns to respect magic and magicians.
We are not trained monkeys waiting to dance for a tip and a tune...and sometimes not even a tip.
Extend the graciousness of asking at the right time or in the right way and the world opens up to you. But it is that way in all of life.
|
Burt Yaroch
Inner circle
Dallas,TX
1097 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 8, 2002 8:22pm
Jeese Tom, you been on vacation or something? I don't think I'm following your opening comments. Would you mind clarifying a bit?
Yakworld.
|
Joe M. Turner
Loyal user
Atlanta, Georgia
247 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 9, 2002 11:21am
Jeff McBride is always ready to do magic for anyone, anytime, anywhere. He will surprise a hotel desk clerk, a cab driver, or a waiter with a little bit of magic. I think that works for him and his character.
I have a certain number of close friends with whom I spend a lot of time. They are used to the idea that if I've worked up something new I may wish to give it a trial run with them. This is more of a test drive than a "social situation."
Just in a regular situation, I'll do something if I feel the environment and circumstances make it appropriate. Sometimes I may be asked, sometimes it may just occur to me that it's a good opportunity for a miracle. It would need to be a relevant miracle, though -- I'm not pulling out a 'hot rod' out of the blue.
Anyway, it's a matter of discernment. If you are a professional, will you maintain a professional reputation by performing this effect? Or will you come off looking like Uncle Buck who never goes anywhere without his svengali deck, five rubber bands and a finger chopper?
If I think I can enhance my reputation as a professional with a quick but strong effect at someone's request -- I'll consider it.
Was it Leipzig who said never perform on the first request? Always wait to be begged...
JMT
...
Regards,
Joe M. Turner
jmt@joemturner.com
www.joemturner.com
|
Tom Cutts
Staff
Oakland, Ca
4523 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 9, 2002 9:37pm
Well put Joe...and nice avatar.
Here is what the backspace button has stopped me from posting for a day now.  (A whole nuther story)
Gee, you're a painter? Here, do a painting of me right now. Oh, c'mon...just a quick little one. Ok then, how 'bout just a sketch.
Wow, you're a chef? Lets go in the kitchen and have you whip me up something. Oh, nuthin' fancy just a quick sumthin'.
|
Burt Yaroch
Inner circle
Dallas,TX
1097 Posts
|
Posted: Feb 9, 2002 10:58pm
Well I just got off the phone with my cousin. He's a chef. I asked him,"Has anyone ever been so ecstatic when they found out you were a chef that they asked you whip them up something right then and there?"
"Yeah, you."
"But you invited me over for dinner."
"You invited yourself over."
"Alright, anyone other than me?"
"No."
And I have been in the military for 11 years and no one has ever asked me to liberate their living room or bomb their garage.
My dad was a biologist and no one ever asked him to dissect their dog. (Well one guy did but he was really drunk.)
Are these comparisons really the same as handing a magician a deck of cards and asking him to take the spotlight for five minutes?
Yakworld.
|
| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Magic...at a moment's notice! » » Unpaid impromptu » » TOPIC IS LOCKED |
|
|
| Go to page 1 ~ 2 (Next) |
|
![[8]](/forums/images/digits/8.gif)
![[3]](/forums/images/digits/3.gif)
![[1]](/forums/images/digits/1.gif)
![[4]](/forums/images/digits/4.gif)
![[6]](/forums/images/digits/6.gif)
![[7]](/forums/images/digits/7.gif)
![[9]](/forums/images/digits/9.gif)