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imfletcher
Loyal user
234 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 8:54am
Hi Steve,
I was wondering since you are a famous publisher, with the cost of everyday materials going up everyday in this world, why don't more publishers make their books available in PDF format. Would it not make sense to sell more books electronically? I am sure that Magic books do not get the same run off as say a Harry Potter book, so I am assuming that the upfront costs to produce the books gets costly and that is one reason why a lot of material goes out of print. I do not know what the typical run off for a first edition print of a typical magic book is; I assume it is a couple of thousand copies.
Now I also know that in this day and age if you make material available thru electronic media that you open yourself up to piracy, but PDF files can be password protected. I have heard that Peter Duffie has had some great success with pdf's and lot more magicians seem to be releasing material in PDF form, i.e. Nate Kranzo, Paul Wilson and Lee Asher.
Have you ever considered reprinting the Trapdoor or any of your semi-automatic books as a PDF? And if not what is your take on the whole electronic media issue.
Thanks
John
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Steve Beam
V.I.P.
149 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 12:26pm
Hi John,
Great question. The simple answer to your question is no - I haven't considered it. That's not to say that I wouldn't. Never say never. I just haven't taken the time to research and evaluate the many options and decide the best way to do it. Then after determining the best way, I would want to determine my own interest level in jumping into an already saturated market.
Best,
Steve
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PaulGordon
Elite user
475 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 12:36pm
As a publisher myself, I prefer hardback books for oodles of reasons: 1) The ease of taking books on the train, plane, bus, car, beach, park, Café, pub etc. 2) The beauty of them; the feel, smell etc. The joy of owning them. 3) Sadly, some pdf books are 'lazily' put together because they are cheap to produce. Conversely, if one spends £3000 ($6000) on producing a hardback 1000-book run, then one takes more care. 4) I for one am not keen on watching a PC monitor for hours on end. 5) Sure, pdf's often (but NOT always) generate more money for the 'publisher', but money is not the be-all and end-all! 6) Ramble, ramble, ramble...
Just an opinion. Paul Gordon
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Pete McEwen
Special user
Durham, N.C.
575 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 12:40pm
I am also an advocate for actual books. But, I am not opposed to PDF's as long as you make it nice to print out so I can take it with me if need be. I hate staring at a computer as well but If I can get a PDF quickly and it's put together very well and I can print it out and bind it, then I think it's a great idea and it could work. Just my thoughts...
Pete McEwen
The magician formerly known as SPEEDcuber
"no one will believe the things we do if we don't believe them ourselves." - Slydini
PeteMcEwen@mac.com
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Steve Beam
V.I.P.
149 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 12:51pm
Paul was far more thorough but still only scratched the surface of what my analysis would include. I love books. I like to produce books. I have yet to love a PDF, but maybe I just haven't met the right one.
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PaulGordon
Elite user
475 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 1:04pm
Dear Steve,
A thought: I could EASILY take one of my better-produced books and pdf it, but - it still doesn't take my fancy. Likewise, so could you...but, I love to hold 'em, look at 'em etc.......
Dear Pete,
If you can print it out and bind it, why not just buy the hardback version. And, isn't it more expensive (printer ink) to print out (rather than buy) a, say, 300-page book??
Paul
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Dave V
Inner circle
Las Vegas, NV
4699 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 1:09pm
I think magic PDFs will catch on better when portable readers are more available, and when the PDFs themselves stop mimicking books. Mike Close picked up on this and started imbedding video clips in his PDF ebooks. There's a LOT you can do with an electronic medium besides simply making a poor substitute for a book.
We're in the early stages of development of this. It's almost like the first movies (talkies, not silent) They really didn't know what to do with the format, so we were faced with many movies that were for the most part filmed versions of stage production shows. (Fred Astaire, Esther Williams, etc...)
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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imfletcher
Loyal user
234 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 1:33pm
Dave brings up some good points, I forgot about Michael Close books. It is a new medium, electronic devices will have to improve for people to go down this route, but it is coming and the people that will be pushing for this will be our kids. I grew up in a house with a b&w tv, my kids are barely out of diapers and they know where the pause button on the tivo is, just a silly example.
I think Mr. Gordon brings up some excellent points. I am not a publisher but my day job involes similar work and I can understand that has a publisher you take pride in your work and it is your baby and you don't want to see it tarnished. To some people pdf files are cheap and not something worthy to actually hold in my hands.
Part of the reason I brought up this topic was because a lot of times you see on this forum and other ones like it is someone will suggest a book or lecture notes and they are long out of print and you have to go to sites like eBay and spend hundreds even thousands of dollars to purchase an out of print book and the only person to see that money is the seller who was lucky enough to buy a copy of the book when it first came out. Has far has printing them out electronic printers have come a long way in the past couple of years and Kinko's and Staples have some resonable prices for printing out documents.
Just some more thoughts
John
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Pete McEwen
Special user
Durham, N.C.
575 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 2:10pm
Paul Gordon,
I would much much rather have the actual book. If offered the choice of say SACT V8 in Book or PDF I wouldn't think twice, it would be book. But in the case of Michael Close's new PDF's, that is the only way it is released. In this case I love the fact that it has video clips and while I'm out studying at a coffee shop or in between practices I can read the nice looking printed out version. But when I need to see the clips I can go back to the master and check out the videos. I am more worried about the people that release PDF only versions. If you are putting out a PDF only version then you should concentrate more on how it would look printed out. Does that make more sense?
Pete
P.S. I can't say convey more the point that I love books and would much rather have a well published book, but in giving to the Ebook medium, please think about that...
The magician formerly known as SPEEDcuber
"no one will believe the things we do if we don't believe them ourselves." - Slydini
PeteMcEwen@mac.com
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PaulGordon
Elite user
475 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 3:16pm
The video-addition is good, but - to date - not easy to access (in pubs, clubs, beach, Café etc). Also, without sounding snobbish, having a video could be what in the UK is called 'dumbing-down'. In other words, assuming the reader can't learn from just the written word. I know video helps, but it is, I think, a bit faddy!
Here's nostalgic for you: When I was a kid learning magic, a part of the JOY was saving (for a year's pocket money/cleaning dad's car etc) up to buy a hardback book and then the looooong wait until - PLOP; through the letter box! Then the joy of holding it etc., etc...Happy memories!
When magic is TOO EASY to obtain, doesn't the joy & anticipation diminish? Also, I think the novice learns better when he has to struggle a bit to learn!
Ramble over!
Paul Gordon
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Pete McEwen
Special user
Durham, N.C.
575 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 3:36pm
Paul,
I agree with everything you've said, ha, to me you've certainly won this argument. I am 100% on your side. I was just trying to make a suggestion if anyone was going to go to PDF files.
Pete
P.s. It's kind of weird to have someone just concede the point eh?
The magician formerly known as SPEEDcuber
"no one will believe the things we do if we don't believe them ourselves." - Slydini
PeteMcEwen@mac.com
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PaulGordon
Elite user
475 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 3:50pm
Dear Pete,
Maybe pdf's will one day rule the world; then you & I might have to eat our words. But, methinks hardcopies will win the day!
Having said that, my pdf of Pentagram, Wizard and other MAGAZINES is great for SEARCHING to find references etc! But, still prefer to read the hardcopies...if only for the smell of must!
Paul
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Jaz
Inner circle
NJ, U.S.
6113 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 4:26pm
Someone mentioned a while back about having to buy a book containing lots of effects and/or sleights when all they are interested is one or two.
Breaking down book content, of say 25 items, into individual tricks/sleights and selling that way seems like a good idea.
If the whole book costs $45 and the individual articles are $2-$5 PDFs I can see this working for both seller and buyer.
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Rupert Bair
Inner circle
?
2056 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 4:38pm
Quote:
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On 2007-03-28 12:51, Steve Beam wrote:
Paul was far more thorough but still only scratched the surface of what my analysis would include. I love books. I like to produce books. I have yet to love a PDF, but maybe I just haven't met the right one.
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Can I hook you up?
:: eyeWONDER Magicians Blog :: Click Here!
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imfletcher
Loyal user
234 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 5:03pm
Quote:
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On 2007-03-28 14:10, SPEEDcuber wrote:
If you are putting out a PDF only version then you should concentrate more on how it would look printed out. Does that make more sense?
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Pete don't judge a book by it's cover.
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imfletcher
Loyal user
234 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 5:20pm
Quote:
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On 2007-03-28 15:50, PaulGordon wrote:
Having said that, my pdf of Pentagram, Wizard and other MAGAZINES is great for SEARCHING to find references etc! But, still prefer to read the hardcopies...if only for the smell of must!
Paul
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Yes and it is nice when the book becomes so old and tadered that the pages start falling out and then you have to use string to hold the book together and before you know it you have purchased your second or third copy of Royal Road to Card Magic. But heh if want a copy of New Magic of Japan I hear their are used copies on eBay for the cost of only and arm and a leg.
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Steve Beam
V.I.P.
149 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 7:25pm
This thread is going so well that I hate to muck it up. I agree with everything Paul (and heck, almost everyone else) said. I think incorporating the videos is a great idea and they might make sense for sleight of hand publications. However, I just don't understand someone wanting a video that teaches the method for a semi-automatic card trick. Not to mention the cost per trick is much higher when you consider that I put 100 tricks in my SACT volumes and you could only get a fraction of that number, shallowly taught, on a DVD.
I made this comment when reviewing some DVDs for The Linking Ring. Expert Card Technique on DVD would be great. However, would it substitute for reading the book? Not for me. Is someone on the video going to read the chapters to me on misdirection and presentation?
When the technology is perfected and flexible, and if I'm still around, I may give it a go for my sleight of hand projects. Whatever I do, it wouldn't replace the books but it might supplement them. I also wouldn't want the video to compete with the books.
Using Volume 5 (SACT) as an example, I went into great detail on the theory, concept, and inner workings of 5 new principles/concepts (in addition to the 100 or so tricks contained within). Doing just the 5 on a DVD would have taken up the entire disk. What happens to the other 100 tricks? I just don't think the video medium is necessary for semi-automatic card tricks because it is often not a visual effect.
And Jaz, I understand selling individual tricks in PDF form rather than books might work for some. I tend to produce what I like to purchase myself. I don't buy individual tricks so I wouldn't move in this direction. I certainly think it could be far more profitable. But if I was in this just for the money, I have other skills that are far more marketable and profitable than generating and selling PDFs. In every volume of SACT I have said that I do this for the fun of it - my fun. The fact that others enjoy it enough that I've created a somewhat loyal reader base is a wonderful bonus.
I understand that magic books in general are not selling as well as they once did. Most attribute this to videos. Each of my books has sold faster than its predecessor. I think magicians purchase my books for various reasons - humor, patter ideas, tricks, concepts, etc. Maybe they just like a good read. A DVD would be a watered down version of everything I do and I prefer to have a deeper discussion on the concepts. I just don't approach my passion that way. Bottom line, there still seems to be a market for a good product and if I change it - it may not be a good product.
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briantwig
New user
78 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 7:40pm
Instead of putting out a video, how about a Book on Tape for those that need a sleep aid? Especially if mentalism hasn't worked.
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Steve Beam
V.I.P.
149 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 8:00pm
Mentalism ALWAYS works.
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Pete McEwen
Special user
Durham, N.C.
575 Posts
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Posted: Mar 28, 2007 9:46pm
Hey,
Maybe one day they will rule the world, but you're right I would much rather have the book. I would also like to have my whole library searchable on my computer, so maybe one day we'll have the best of both worlds.
imfletcher - I would hate to judge a book by it's cover. I am saying concentrate a lot more on the actual material, but don't just throw it on a page and call it a PDF. put a little into presentation and make it easy to read. I absolutly can not stand some lecture notes from people that could have been written better on a napkin.
As for SACT with a video, I can completely see why that is unneccesary, but it would be nice to have a book or video on all your false shuffles and what not Steve...
Pete
The magician formerly known as SPEEDcuber
"no one will believe the things we do if we don't believe them ourselves." - Slydini
PeteMcEwen@mac.com
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Martino
Special user
Manchester, UK
760 Posts
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Posted: Mar 30, 2007 10:43am
Steve,
I agree with your point on using video for SACT's. What's the point? On the other hand, when you're dealing with sleight of hand material then let me paraphrase Michael Close from his introduction to "Closely Guarded Secret" (highly recommended ebook btw).
Text provides the detail.
Photographs clarify the text.
Video shows the timing.
If you haven't seen any of Mike ebooks, I heartily recommend you invest in maybe Closely Guarded Secrets and one of the ebooks from his short series on "The Work". You will see first hand what can really be done with the medium. I think Mike and Lisa Close are at the forefront of ebook technology and many publishers could learn from them.
As far as ebooks vs real books goes - I think most people would rather read from an actual book than off a computer screen. However, if the ebook looks great when printed out............why not have the advantages of both?
"There's a difference between not knowing how something is done and knowing it can't be done!" - Simon Aronson
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Steve Beam
V.I.P.
149 Posts
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Posted: Mar 30, 2007 12:11pm
Martino,
Mike and Lisa are good friends and I agree that they are on the forefront. (I'm thinking Lisa is the one responsible for their success.) I also saw a Card College CD that had the text along with video clips. It made perfect sense and is far better than a PDF without the video. I think you are saying something consistent with my point from above, "When the technology is perfected and flexible, and if I'm still around, I may give it a go for my sleight of hand projects. Whatever I do, it wouldn't replace the books but it might supplement them."
Now, it's just a question of where I put my time. I don't do this full time and don't have a lot of free time to give. I can move on to other ventures or figure out more ways to re-issue older ventures. I would like to put out The Trapdoor in hardbound. That is the starting place for me. I have to get past the issues that come with that first. Any other format options will come later and will be dependent upon the technology, the time I have available, and the perceived demand. Heck, at that point, I may produce a holographic PDF complete with the plastic spectators currently so popular on magic DVDs.
I can't disagree with your point of view - but I don't think it is in conflict with my point of view.
Best,
Steve
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David Bond
New user
Maple Valley, WA
98 Posts
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Posted: Mar 30, 2007 3:13pm
I have the workers series and Closely Guarded Secrets on CD. I printed both and spiral bound them (Workers in two volumes). The big advantage to pdf (or any electronic format) is the ability to search. Yea, the video is nice and can be helpful, but I find myself searching more than looking at the video. I find out what page I need to look at and then get out the printed volume.
- David Bond
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Steve Beam
V.I.P.
149 Posts
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Posted: Mar 30, 2007 5:32pm
David,
I buy magazines on CD even when I have complete files in loose issues and often in bound editions, just to have them searchable because with a thousand plus pages, it may be hard to find what I'm looking for. But I think magic authors ("real" books and otherwise) do a great disservice when they don't include a thorough index in the back of a book which also makes them searchable. All of the hardbacks I have written have indexes, the last several having full 4-page, single-spaced indexes. It is yet another advantage magic books could have over DVDs if authors took a little extra time.
Steve
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Martino
Special user
Manchester, UK
760 Posts
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Posted: Mar 31, 2007 5:55am
Steve,
We'll have to agree to agree on that one then! 
Martino.
"There's a difference between not knowing how something is done and knowing it can't be done!" - Simon Aronson
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