I was reading another thread and thought this was an interesting enough debate/discussion to launch a new thread: how do you like your video... do you like "performance only" sections, valuable for their demonstration of patter/technique/crowd handling skills or do find them insulting, a waste of money or a feeble marketing gimmick?
Personally, I think that if an effect appears on an *instructional* DVD/video, then it should include the instructions! Yes, it's nice to see performance masters at work, but if I were interested in that, I would go look for performances on tape/DVD or go to a show.
It's almost as if the lecturer is saving the "good stuff" for himself. And if he doesn't want to share, that's fine, but why fill space on the DVD if only to preserve what seems to be a recurring marketing format (like the 3-DVD set or the $99.95 prices...)? (actually, if you want to talk about that issue too in this thread, I think it's worth discussing.) As a student, I'm looking for the explanation; and as a consumer, I'm expecting the goods.
For example, I sort of liked the presentation of Fernando Keops in the clips I have seen (how can I guy wearing that many rings still be able to manipulate cards so easily?), and I was somewhat interested in his DVDs until I saw in the description just how much was performance only.
The fact that there aren't many performance-only only DVDs (ie without *any* tricks explained) makes me realize even more how unappealing they are, and how any performance only section in an instructional video only serves to give me less product than what I am paying for. I don't believe in the *bonus* performance section; I think of it as a money wasted for nothing. (Of course, I don't believe in "sales" or discounts either, only in market forces setting the value of an object/commodity/service; the "sale" is only a gimmick to encourage buyers who don't share my viewpoint. I don't save money by buying things on sale; I save money by not buying things. But I digress....)

One day, you're going to have to learn how to perform in front of an audience and watching the "performance" part of a dvd is one of the best tools of interaction. Also, you now have the ability to watch the sleights "in action." I actually prefer watching the performance part verse the explanations. Sure, I like to know the secret, but I still enjoy being entertained.

The format I like is basically the L+L format.
They have the performance ONLY option
then they have a menu for "play all" for explanation or select and individual explanation.

We have performance only segments?

I was at a live Bro. John Hammans lecture about 100 years ago. After the first 3 tricks, I asked "are you going to explain anythingthing", he said "no", and had nothing for sale. About half of the room got up and walked out.
And no, he still did not explain anything after people left.

ACE

I like my videos to actually teach what is on them, not tease and taunt me to go buy it again elsewhere, that is if they are not "re-advertising" it again. If I want to see performance only I will simply save the explanations for later. I have no problem watching a live show with no explanations, but not when I am buying a DVD to learn "material/effects." People feed a lot of crap here that they do not care, as if they know everything already, and could not possibly need to learn anymore effects etc; and are content with the "O great performance." They are full of it.

If I want to see great performances I will go watch a live act, not a buy a DVD that is advertising another DVD, and on and on...You can learn even more about a performance when you know exactly what is going on, AKA: the method/explanation. Seems like L&L has quite a few puppets on their strings that are willing to believe anything these days. No wonder they are so rich. I enjoy a great performance as much as anybody, but I do not buy instructional DVDs online for just performances. I am a magician not a layman.

I like to buy the shows of classic magicians to watch. Like Mark Wilson and Doug Henning. Heck, I even bought David Coperfields DVD at his show. I learn a lot from watching them, and I know how most of it works anyway.
Now when I buy a DVD to learn something, it better well explain it.

If I'm going to buy something anyway, I love a sale. And I just watched the bonus sections of Bill Malone"s "on the loose", and his talking and insite is very valuable for real world entertaining. He actually shares secret knowledge.
Just watching him perform, gives you great ideas for your performance in general.
And then he explains the workings. But you have to watch the performance to see the presentations. And you can learn a lot there, how to act in front of people.
He's just good. And funny.
ACE

"How do you like your video?"

Well done.

Thanks for the compliment, sirbrad.


I agree that the performance part is valuable; I just don't value performance only unless that's what I set out to buy in the first place. Of course, I buy instructional video for the didactic nature of it, not just for entertainment (though these are not a mutually exclusive concepts: the educational part is entertainment...)
Actually, I found watching Daryl's performance of the Ambitious Card routine even better once I understood all of the techniques. In some ways, it made me even more confident that not every move needs to be executed perfectly everytime, that the misdirection helps cover what is going on. It also shows how some that-can't-possibly-work-in-real-life techniques can actually work in real life.


Not really a lecture, then? More of a performance masquerading as a lecture, unless the lecture was titled,
"My card secrets explained (performance only)."

Do you have a point? If so please express it in one sentence, thank you.

MagicSanta, read the thread and perhaps the point will become apparent to you. I don't think the forum is founded on providing you specifically a clear explanation of why any thread is created. I've read your reviews of DVDs before, and I think they are quite thorough and do enjoy reading most of them; but even when I don't understand them or when I am more interested in my own thoughts than reading your laboriously lengthy posts, I don't ask you to sum up your review in a single sentence; I make up my mind and move on.

If the producers or performers wish to have performance only segments, why not separate these out and put them all on a separate DVD. That way a 4 disc set can still be a 4 disc set, only now we (the folks buying these) can decide if we want to buy 3 discs of purely educational material and 1 disc of performance only if we are so inclined. I suspect however, that the disc of performance only material would be the least seller.

I think I just ruined my idea!

That was a joke with various meanings. Well done as in great, and steak.

I'll be more specific. Does it bother you when a DVD is released and they perform magic routines then don't explain it or do you not want any presentation so others performing styles will not effect you? Perhaps you just don't care for 'performance only' DVD's. I have a response for each but I cannot determine. As for others respnses it doesn't indicate what you are stating mearly what they are responding to.

MagicSanta, I'm not a fan of presentation-only in instructional videos, because I think it fills space I paid for with product I can't use. If I want presentations only, I will get presentation-only videos.

Okay, thank you. You know....I agree with you in most cases. There was a DVD that cost me $160 and there was a 'presentation only' routine on it that was far better than the material shown. I was not happy it wasn't explained. In fact for that much money the guy should have come to my house and explained it. In my opinion if you pay for instruction you should get instruction and in particular if you pay a lot for it.

There are some DVD's, and Live From The Jailhouse comes to mind, where part of the instruction is watching performers interact with the audience, how they approach, how they exit, and that IS the part you are learning from and the trick is secondary in that scenerio.

Dan Garret's Kid Konivery is like that.
It more shows you how to do a kids show.
most of the props are standard, or one is assumed to know how to work them.
He does explain a couple of the effects at the end that he thinks you might need help with.
What do you think about that type of DVD?

AVE

EXACTLY what I have said all along, Chrissy will gloss over this, that is for sure. You people are acting as if you cannot learn anything from the performances that are taught, and seemingly being watered down by those not. I don't understand that kind of logic, if anything this actually DETRACTS from those taught, and makes the performances not taught seem more important, and makes you want to buy it again. I cannot believe the majority cannot see this, and continue making ridiculous excuses to justify it.

That, to me, is subtly different, sort of on the level of "Presentation of Magic" type instruction (Eugene Burger and Tamariz have books of this nature). I can't specifically comment about the examples you are citing, because I haven't seen them. My guess is that the purchaser of this type of DVD is looking for ideas about presentation, not the explanation behind the trick. I think Harry Lorayne's explanations on his DVDs are sort of in both categories: he explains the effect and also the reasoning that makes the effect work.

A lot of times, I will watch the presentation one time, I figure out how the trick part works, so I hate to go through the lengthy explanation. Sometimes it is boring.
Then I will just do it my way, without looking at the explanation.
It depends on the effect. But they should not sell instruction DVD's without the explanations. Period.
But I think a DVD, and most of them are, formated to show demo's, then explanations. That way I can skip the effects I don't want to bother with.

Wow, I grew up with Vhs's, and you pretty much had to watch them through, or fast forward to the spot you wanted to see. Actually, when I first started magic, the only way to learn was from books.
Everyone now has the effects handed to them on a platter.
No complaining allowed!

ACE