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Review King
Eternal Order
14448 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2008 12:07pm
I hate when I hear that. Who first came up with saying that? Is it designed to get the person to agree that nothing tricky could have been done, so that they are shocked when the magic happens?
I know that some professionals use it and I just don't think it has the impact they think it does.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"
..........John Greenleaf Whittier
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Big Daddy Cool
Inner circle
1566 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2008 1:00pm
It is a stupid thing to say...
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Steve_Mollett
Inner circle
Eh, so I've made
2628 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2008 5:53pm
Never heard it.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
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erlandish
Inner circle
Vancouver, Canada
1254 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2008 7:03pm
It's a fairly blunt way of getting agreement...
The Jester Extraordinaire : bderland.com
Ye Olde Magick Blogge : erlandish.blogspot.com
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Jerrine
Special user
Busking is work.
629 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2008 10:58pm
My father taught me the Fair Enough bit long ago.
Used in sales quite frequently.
Definitely used to get a nod.
Tommy Wonder did it.
I've done it both in sales and Magic.
What am I talking about. Magic is sales.
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marty.sasaki
Inner circle
1117 Posts
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Posted: Feb 9, 2008 10:17pm
I don't know about what the general public thinks, but whenever I hear a magician say, "is that fair", or "I couldn't be fairer" I have to suppress a chuckle. No one says that unless they have just done something sneaky, or about to do something sneaky. I try to avoid even bringing up the fairness of anything that I do with the thinking that if I have to point out that something is fair, then I've already done something wrong.
Marty Sasaki
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
Standard disclaimer: I'm just a hobbyist who enjoys occasionally mystifying friends and family, so my opinions should be viewed with this in mind.
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oddsmaker
New user
65 Posts
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Posted: Feb 14, 2008 3:58am
I hear fair enough quite regularly but I can say that it bothers me to hear it.
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Ronin
Regular user
Martinez,CA
163 Posts
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Posted: Feb 16, 2008 6:59pm
I agree that usually it just sounds foolish.
However, I have very deliberately used the phrase, "was that fair?" or one of its variants in two particular instances:
1. When performing close-up for people who have been drinking, or for young children--i.e., for people with shortened attention spans who may later accuse me of not having shuffled the deck or shown the envelope empty when, in fact, I did. Said with a slight emphasis, "Does that seem fair?" can act as a cue to a spectator, "Hey! Pay attention!" without being too pushy.
2. In my presentation of Alexander DeCova's "Purse Swindle" I ask the spectators, "Did that seem fair?" when, in fact, everything did look fair. I use the question ironically, immediately answering it myself by saying, "Of course it wasn't fair!" and leading in to the second phase. I must confess, though, I have been considering dropping that line from this routine.
So, as with any question of scripting, I think a phrase can be used well or badly (even a bad, inelegant, grammatically improper phrase can be used well, if used deliberately for comic effect).
Does this seem fair?
(Or does it sound to you folks like I'm kidding myself and just sound stupid? Go ahead--let me know. I can take it.)
David Hirata
www.thingsimpossible.com
"Life is a combination of magic and pasta."
--Federico Fellini
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erlandish
Inner circle
Vancouver, Canada
1254 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2008 6:41am
Here's a question on the topic...
Assuming that you think it is important to elicit agreement or achieve some sort of supposed concensus with the spectator about the state of affairs, before proceeding to the next stage of the trick, what would be a more entertaining way to do it besides asking "Was that fair?"
The Jester Extraordinaire : bderland.com
Ye Olde Magick Blogge : erlandish.blogspot.com
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Patrick Differ
Inner circle
far enough south to surprise you
1500 Posts
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Posted: Feb 29, 2008 12:43pm
"Did that seem fair?" I use this all the time. But only when I am doing something blatantly unfair. I use it as a rhetorical question, a question that could only possibly have one answer, that being, "Hell no! That was totally unfair!"
"Was that fair?"
"@#$%^ no!"
"Ahh, c'mon! Whaddya mean, no? That was perfectly fair!"
The reason I script like this is because it suits my style of performance. I am a fast-talking, shuck-jiving, in-your-face BS'er.
I know your beef. And I agree. Unless the goal is parody, it's far too easy to mistake this line as entertainment.
Asking if something is fair is a challenge.
Fair enough?
First principles, Clarice. Simplicity. Read Marcus Aurelius. Of each particular thing ask: what is it in itself? What is its nature? What does he do, this man you seek?
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Vick
Inner circle
It's taken me 9 years to make
1048 Posts
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Posted: Feb 29, 2008 5:01pm
Like I tell my 6 year young son ......
....... The only thing fair in life is a baseball hit into play
Unique, Thought Provoking & Amazing Magical Entertainment Experiences
Illusions By Vick
Blog of a real world working magician
Magic would be great, if not for magicians
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Lawrence O
Inner circle
Paris France
6325 Posts
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Posted: Dec 20, 2008 7:21am
Don't like it either: it only shows insecurity. "Don't run when nobody's chasing you"
Magic is not a performing art where people don't know how situations are reached, it's the art of showing parallel dimensions that can't be reached
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JRob
Veteran user
Central South Carolina
391 Posts
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Posted: Dec 20, 2008 8:40am
Dad burn it! Lawrence beat me to it. Let's face it, once you ask that question, the spectator will ask (at least mentally if not audibly) "why wouldn't it be fair, unless, of course...?"
"Jim Roberts, AKA: Professor Jay Rob "
The Professor's Facebook Page
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JackScratch
Inner circle
2151 Posts
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Posted: Dec 20, 2008 1:15pm
I always avoid challenging my audience. It should be a trip taken together. Create an adversarial relationship with your audience and you will find it difficult to draw them in to your world.
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Lawrence O
Inner circle
Paris France
6325 Posts
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Posted: Dec 31, 2008 9:17am
Like every principle not asking "is it fair" has it's limit. Without taking back what I expressed, I'd like to advocate for subtlety in our art.
Daryl properly uses the expression "is it fair?" in the following way. He would do very deliberately and overtly something perfectly genuine asking "Is it fair ?" and when the spectator would confirm, Daryl would further reconfirm with emphasis "Yes... I know...!". The whole point here is that Daryl doesn't use the term "Is it fair? for satisfying a form of insecurity he would have after performing a magical move, but for entertaining purposes and to bring the audience guard down. He is using the "don't run when nobody is chasing you" at the third level. Like John Ramsay used to do, he creates a suspicion with the question, but only when there is nothing to suspect or when the dispelling of the suspicion creates sufficient a misdirection to do something THEN.
The danger in using this approach too lightly and verbatim is that less experienced magicians may tend to rationalize what they are already doing. Using Daryl's words simply as a quote rather than as a subtle example could result from a need for justification instead of a ground for a reconsideration of what we do and add depth to our magic and its entertainment value.
Magic is not a performing art where people don't know how situations are reached, it's the art of showing parallel dimensions that can't be reached
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edh
Inner circle
4702 Posts
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Posted: Jan 19, 2009 5:54pm
Michael Ammar uses this phrase quite a bit.
Here is another question along the lines of "is it fair" question. How about when at the end the effect some magicians go over what has just taken place. In other words something like this "...you have cut the deck. You have shuffled the cards and...". Isn't this a subtle form of the "is this fair" question?
Magic is a vanishing art.
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MikeyM71
Regular user
Chesapeake, OH
154 Posts
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Posted: Jan 20, 2009 12:58am
I don't care for this phrase either. To me, it would just raise suspicion.
Mikey M.
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Lawrence O
Inner circle
Paris France
6325 Posts
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Posted: Jan 21, 2009 10:38am
But raising suspicion can, within limits, be a very strong misdirection and be quite entertaining. Did you ever do a Spider Grip Vanish with a coin?
Magic is not a performing art where people don't know how situations are reached, it's the art of showing parallel dimensions that can't be reached
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Close.Up.Dave
Inner circle
Behind you!
2757 Posts
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Posted: Jan 21, 2009 11:39pm
I think it's only useful when using a trick that deliberately wants an audience to try to catch you. Or, it can be used when everyone knows the result before it happens and you want to make it more challenging. I have a hard enough time making my audiences believe I do magic, they won't stop asking me how it's done!
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obsidian52
Loyal user
264 Posts
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Posted: Mar 5, 2011 9:54pm
Hate that phrase "Is thid/it fair" It is entirely like saying I have in my hand an "ordinary deck" to imply there is such a thing as an unordinary deck...SHEESH
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25310 Posts
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Posted: Mar 5, 2011 11:24pm
Quote:
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On 2009-01-21 10:38, Lawrence O wrote:
But raising suspicion can, within limits, be a very strong misdirection and be quite entertaining. Did you ever do a Spider Grip Vanish with a coin?
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Not usually a sound strategy - and rather misses the underlying issue - the "why" of any sense of suspicion.
Do they trust your actions? If not - is that what you want?
And yes I use variations on the Spider vanish often though not using a design that could teach the audience to look at the wrong hand.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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harris
Inner circle
Harris Deutsch
6140 Posts
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Posted: Mar 7, 2011 1:19pm
Seems like Slydini (and others) would feint a suspicious move....and then go into a HPC.
For some spectators everything we say and do is suspicious. I used to concentrate on pleasing that 1(or 2) out of the group. It is a bit different these days.
Harris
still 2 old to know everything
Harris Deutsch
aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com
music, magic and marvelous toys
http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u
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P.Synenberg
New user
Abingdon, Va
58 Posts
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Posted: Apr 26, 2011 9:34pm
I always just say "seems simple enough, don't you agree?"
-P.J. Synenberg
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HerbLarry
Special user
Poof!
732 Posts
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Posted: May 4, 2011 1:25pm
"So far so good?"
You know why don't act naive.
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ancientmagic
New user
Tucson AZ
86 Posts
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Posted: Jun 1, 2011 7:16pm
I agree using the "is that fair" brings a question into play that may not have even been on the spectator's mind. One can use a direct statement to eliminate suspicion if need be or to "set" a point in time in the observer's mind. For example, if I take a selected card and place it into the center of the deck...push it into the deck and say, "Now isn't that fair." I have put a question into play. The human mind will respond, "is it really," even if it is not verbalized.
However, if I say something like, "Ok, let's see what we had done so far. You have selected a card, signed it, we placed your card in the middle of the deck...now we can" This is true and it involves the observer in creating the event without using a question. Questions often beget other question when used to validate circumstances.
Best,
John
"In victory you deserve champagne…in defeat you need it!" –Napoleon Bonaparte
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MagicJuggler
Special user
Anchorage, AK
918 Posts
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Posted: Jun 24, 2011 6:20am
I agree that "is it fair?" is more often used in a way that has the possibility of raising questions you may not want the spectator to think, or cause suspicion when it's undesired. But I think it's important to have moments of reinforcement with the audience, where you create agreement with the conditions that you are establishing, and elicit a positive response from one or more audience members which helps condition the rest of the audience to accept the conditions as valid. More often than not, "Is it fair?" is a clumsy attempt to do so. (Or all to often an attempt to force agreement when the performer is unsure whether the audience bought the move or conditions set)
I also agree that the raising of suspicion (or more broadly, tension) can be a strong tool in misdirection. By raising tension (suspicion is a form of tension) then releasing it, you create a moment of inattention where a move can be performed without undue scrutiny.
Matthew Olsen
www.mattolsenmagic.com
I heard from a friend that anecdotal evidence is actually quite reliable.
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spcarlson
Loyal user
Minneapolis MN
286 Posts
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Posted: Nov 8, 2011 11:06am
Quote:
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On 2008-02-07 22:58, Jerrine wrote:
My father taught me the Fair Enough bit long ago.
Used in sales quite frequently.
Definitely used to get a nod.
Tommy Wonder did it.
I've done it both in sales and Magic.
What am I talking about. Magic is sales.
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This is exactly it; it's a subtle, subconscious way of getting your audience or customer to agree with you and when done properly it can be very effective. You’re putting a suggestion in their minds. Magicians are doing this type of thing all the time this shouldn’t be any different.
Here’s the important point, if you’re using a phrase like this make sure what you are a doing does look totally fair. That’s why it worked for Tommy Wonder.
Legendary Creations
from Merlin to Marilyn
www.MagicalArtCreations.com
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charliewerner
Regular user
162 Posts
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Posted: Nov 9, 2011 8:40pm
I feel there nothing wrong with it. At anytime during the trick, if audience it not fair, then it is useless for them to see the magic happen.
An audience see you p*lm a card..how would an audience be surprise if the card suddenly land in your pocket..
"Til now everything is fair" "if I go any fairer than that, you be cheating me"
Some of the lines are good way that seems to give opportunity for audience to stop the magician routine that suit to their knowledge."
Imagine a heckler say "that is a fake egg" , the magician say "to be fair I have you to come out to examine the egg". Then the magician give the heckler a glass to hold and break the real egg into his hand. "Sorry, it not the egg that are fake, is the cup that I give you that are fake."
Another example, ACR, a card is selected and sign (To be fair that you are not use duplicate), next card insert in the deck slowly (To be fair to their eye and let them see everything clearly), card jump to top (surprise)
Next they trying to figure out which part of the routine are unfair. show them their sign card, let them hold it and insert anyway in the deck (Now it got to be fair right now), ask them turn over the top card themselves (to be fair).. card jump to top.
Hence, how much audience fool by a magic trick is determine by how fair he thought the magician have done. In coin across routine, if you can show a coin before it disappear in the fairest manner and reappear in the other hand slowly. That is a great magic (COIN ONE BY HOMER LIWAG)
Warning: If you ask your spectator that is what you did just now, is fair or not, be prepare for them to shuffle your deck of card, check the location of the card...You need to do lot of impromptu stuff and impromptu patter line which most magician are no skillful enough to do...
Gregory Wilson, David Williamson, and perhaps Luchen from Taiwan and definitely Dai Vernon and Charlie Miller who always practice how to end a trick under different circumstance.
"Judge a magician skill not with point of view of a magician, but point of view of a layperson or amateur magician."
"Most layman have some kind of magic knowledge, asking him to show you under what condition he feel fair, and perform it in that condition. He will be fool badly, and that is one reason magician move from stage to the street."
Layperson know magician use smoke and mirror on stage, so magician in order to be fair move to the street, that is FAIR ENOUGH TO FOOL ME.
Being fair is not easy, mean you need to do extra work. But that what going to make you a legend. Malini,on one seating with Dai vernon and other magician in a fair sitting, always able to produce a Big cube of Ice under his head.
"Seeing Joy, Sadness, Anger,Contempt,Surprise, Disgust,Fear on people faces are the motivation of my MAGIC" Charlie Werner (C.C.L)
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charliewerner
Regular user
162 Posts
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Posted: Nov 9, 2011 8:46pm
People always want to be special. Imagine a spectator fooled by you and tell her friends and family that, a magician torn corner of the card which magician usually don't, but to be fair and specially done for her alone. The card jump into bottle she just hold. She feel special.
"Seeing Joy, Sadness, Anger,Contempt,Surprise, Disgust,Fear on people faces are the motivation of my MAGIC" Charlie Werner (C.C.L)
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Paul Budd
Loyal user
It's a shame he's only made
280 Posts
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Posted: Dec 26, 2011 12:00am
Patter and verbal misdirection has become a very fascincating part of the art to me. I've seen/heard some great guys say this phrase......I dunno.......like another commenter had mentioned, in sales, you're trying to get the customer saying, "Yes" during your pitch.
Sometimes, the greatest magicians understand that words have an intrinsically hypnotic effect if/when used properly.
I'm kinda on the fence on this one. (I'll probably use this phrase next week!) 
His face isn't really this long in-person!
___________________________________________
Once Upon A Magician blog
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