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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » For the record » » Hands up faces out Elmsley Count (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Jonathan Townsend
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Would anyone have a reference for the hands up (faces out) handling of Elmsley's Ghost Count (Elmsley Count) suitable for platform work?
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rickmagic1
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Max Howard teaches this on his video, Effective Presentations...looks like Hank Lee might carry it. He teaches it with jumbo cards, but I'm sure that it can be also applied to poker size...

http://www.hanklee.org/xcart/product.php?productid=5224

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Bill Palmer
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The first time I saw it was in the 1970's by Fred Castle. It is in a set of his lecture notes.
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Michael Baker
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I came up with my own handling independantly in the mid 1980's to perform "The Only 3 Card Trick Using 4 Cards" (jumbo cards), so I could do it in front of a large group. I had watched another magician do the same trick in front of a larger group using the standard handling, and it forced his shoulders into a hunch and everything happened right at crotch level. I figured there must be a better way.

I can only assume it's the same handling.
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magicwatcher2005
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I saw a guy in LA named George Towbar? who did it for Macdonalds aces.
Jonathan Townsend
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Thanks - Evil Dan mentioned a routine in Neale/Parr's Magic Mirror book though that reads like standard ghost counts - while an item in Apocalypse magazine from 1987 seems to have something close... still looking.

Bill - will PM to ask about your finding

anyone who wants can email - I have a short description of what I'm doing can send.
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David Parr
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Hi Jonathan. Bob Neale's "The Last Dream" is described in The Magic Mirror as Bob performs it -- as a close-up piece with standard table-level Elmsley Counts. Shortly after the book was published (in 2002), and with Bob's permission, I released a booklet that teaches "The Last Dream" as I perform it -- as a stage or parlor piece, with cards in the raised position, at chest level.

PS. I found that using jumbo cards made the process of retraining myself to do the counts in the raised position a bit easier.
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Jonathan Townsend
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Thanks David, might soon be asking to buy a copy of that booklet - Smile
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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Mar 9, 2008, Bill Palmer wrote:
The first time I saw it was in the 1970's by Fred Castle. It is in a set of his lecture notes.


Thanks Bill, I found a supplier for his notes - looks like he's been showing cards to audiences for a while Smile
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Merc Man
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Joe Riding, the creator of 'The Irish 3 Card Trick' (re-named The Only 3 Card Trick With 4 Cards to keep the politically-correct 'luvvies' in the UK happy I guess) originally designed this trick for cabaret. It was later released by Ken Brooke; and Fred Kaps added some nice subtleties to the routine - which had by then become a close-up presentation.

However, when Joe originally released the trick (1976) it used the face-up Elmsley - and was indeed a stand-up routine.
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Leo H
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There is a face out hands up Elmsley count in a 1999 or 2000 issue of Genii in the Magicana section.
Jonathan Townsend
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Eugene Burger mentions the visibility problem in the August 1999 issue.
The November 1999 issue has a Vertical Elmsley Count claimed by Mike Richards.
It is illustrated as done at the fingertips in pinch grip. Maybe there's some later mention to get historical context? Richard?
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Merc Man
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Not sure what Mike Richards is claiming; or when he claimed it (or, come to that, who Mike Richards even is)!

Suffice to say that the face-up, fingertip 'vertical Elmsley' was the exact method published by Joe Riding in 1976.
Barry Allen

"The Rules of the Sleight-of-Hand Artist, are three and all others are vain; the first and second are 'practice', and the third one is 'practice again'.

Edward Victor 1936
Jonathan Townsend
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Hi Merc Man,

The Genii Magazine from 1999 reference was to follow up on what Leo H posted. The Mike Richards article did not include mention of prior art or other performers taking that approach.

So far I've traced the approach back to Fred Castle's notes (1981). I obtained a copy of that item. Fred's notes describe both Hamman and Elmsley counts done with faces toward the audience using jumbo cards. That's following up from Bill Palmer's mention. Thanks Bill. Apparently Fred he showed his card magic in the UK back in the mid 1970s.

I'm doing some research and would like to obtain a copy of that Joe Riding item. Please. If doing card magic that way is a solved problem... no sense in reinventing the wheel.

Regards,

Jon
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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Nov 4, 2017, Merc Man wrote:
...Suffice to say that the face-up, fingertip 'vertical Elmsley' was the exact method published by Joe Riding in 1976.


Suffice to say it's not on his video - which none the less was interesting - but not the way he handled the cards when doing his own routine. On the tape he also did not put the card in his lapel but rather put the card on the table behind him.

other sources?

Is Fred Castle still with us?
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Jonathan Townsend
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Jonathan Townsend
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Going back to Joe Riding's routine..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PgdC3QWvF8
0:20 or 1:20

As in the trikatape performance the cards go back down to waist level on some of the counts. The performer is right at the place where one could count the cards directly front/center, faces out.

It's an odd moment when attempting to discuss and honor prior art but getting the sound of crickets...
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Jonathan Townsend
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@David Parr, I'd like to buy a copy of your booklet with The Last Dream - to your website http://www.davidparr.com/store which item?

@Folks: I'm looking at a change in basic card handling - the defaults for "how to hold, how to count, how to show..." Smile
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Jonathan Townsend
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A quick update for those who're following this hunt for "who tilted the cards up to vertical, with displays faces out for the audience" .

An Eric/Martin Lewis item in Genii Magzine, July 1975 (Vol 39, 6) page 286 "A Case of a Very Odd Card" has both the Elmsley Count and clear nod to Joe Riding for inspiration.
[joke] Smile looking in the literature for something like footprint trails that go from four footed walking to two footed walking. Smile[/joke]

It's an intentional shift in handling design to keep the cards in display rather than downward at waist level.

Okay, back to you merc man?
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Jonathan Townsend
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Small update - after rewatching the first Elmsley Tahoe video:

Elmsley's count was adapted to jumbo cards early on by Jack Avis. That puts the action right in his home area (Magic Circle 1955+) and likely into the routines of working performers including Joe Riding. In Joe's performance on the Trik-a-tape video (folks this is a no-brainer reference for working goodies - go buy it) you can see him handling the cards up front-center with faces front and back. Watching the tape I get a sense that the closeup/stage handling divergence was happening - how he would do the trick for audiences versus how to show it for the lecture.

The exploration of history in adapting this approach as a default is ongoing. No unmotivated large turns to the side, the counts done consistently front on. Making a choice in card handling that triggers adapting to parlor/stage.

Anyone have the early Joe Riding items?
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