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The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ The Feminine Mystique Ľ Ľ Why are there so few female magicians? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Bill Palmer
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The Linking Ring has been running a series for the past several months about women in magic. Some of these are historical figures, others figures of the present. This, in itself, shows a desire at least from the editors who have overseen the project to give magicians a different view of who is who in magic.

The IBM, SAM and the Magic Circle of London have all eliminated any kind of anti-feminine statements from any of their documents. Female performers have been presidents of both IBM and SAM. The Magic Circle has only been allowing female members for a couple of decades, so it will probably take longer for them; however, some of their officers are female, so it's working.

Any performer, regardless of race, color, creed or "gender,"* can succeed in magic. It requires drive, practice and thought. It requires a good act. It requires dedication. It requires coaching, preferrably from someone who has actually earned her/his living from magic. If you feel that you have been turned down for a job because of any accident of birth, but you haven't put in the time to develop these necessary skills, then you really have no complaint at all.

No customer or booking agent is required to take you on unless they feel that you can fulfil their requirements.

*gender is a linguistic term that has been hijacked by people who want to stir up trouble. It applies to whether a noun is masculine, feminine or neuter. If it had anything to do with the actual sex of a person or object, then das Weib, which is German for the woman, would not be neuter.
"The Swatter"

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HollyMental
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Quote:
On 2008-05-31 12:03, Bill Palmer wrote:

You are taking the comment of one idiot as representative of the majority of us.

Shame on you.


Once again, here we have a man telling a woman about what an illusion discrimination against women is.

In my experience, that one idiot DOES represent the majority of males.

Then you go on to post the following:

Quote:
On 2008-05-31 12:44, Bill Palmer wrote:
The IBM, SAM and the Magic Circle of London have all eliminated any kind of anti-feminine statements from any of their documents.

The Magic Circle has only been allowing female members for a couple of decades, so it will probably take longer for them; however, some of their officers are female, so it's working.


Why are these changes being made, Bill? Huh? Because there IS discrimination. It may be diminishing slowly on a legal basis but itís still very much alive in the attitudes of MANY male magicians.

Right here at the Cafť, there are entire threads dedicated to discussing how to use magic or mentalism to take advantage of a woman; to pick a woman up or get her into bed or some other nonsense.

Itís the predominant ATTITUDE, Bill. YOU ought to be ashamed. The above poster made the statement he made but your problem is with me? YOU ought to be ashamed that you remain quiet and passive when such statements are made but are so willing to speak out against a woman who doesnít appreciate that type of discriminatory attitude.

Quote:
On 2008-05-31 12:44, Bill Palmer wrote:
Any performer, regardless of race, color, creed or "gender,"* can succeed in magic. It requires drive, practice and thought. It requires a good act. It requires dedication.


Yes a person can overcome obstacles. But thereís a difference between obstacles placed there by happenstance and obstacles deliberately placed in someoneís path because they are discriminating against you for whatever nonsense.

Maybe someday youíll desire to be part of something and the predominant organizations in the field will tell you that you canít be a member or that you shouldnít be doing that or that youíre not smart enough to do it - just because of your gender - or perhaps your color, or some other nonsense.

Iím not an international star or anything but Iíve experienced a level of success in life that a lot of people would like to have. Iíve done just about everything I ever wanted to do in life. I havenít experienced the level of success in everything that I would like to but thereís still time. Iím not done yet. But any failures on my part most certainly were NOT the result of laziness or lack of dedication and quite frankly Iím sick of people like YOU automatically assuming someone is lazy just because they arenít as successful as theyíd like to be. Some of us never stop aspiring to more and never stop pushing ourselves to improve.

A discriminatory attitude against women is still prevalent among males on this planet. You can ignore it if you want. You have that luxury. I do not.


Holly
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HollyMental
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I wanted to clarify some of my comments above.

I never called MagicWatcher an idiot. Bill Palmer did. I said his comments were boneheaded and sadly represented the majority of male opinions within the brotherhood. My responding comment to Bill about ďthat one idiotĒ was riding off Billís comment in which he referred to him as an idiot. I do not think MagicWatcher is an idiot. I think he made a very silly and misinformed statement.

After my initial response to MagicWatcher, he made the following comment:

Quote:
On 2008-03-12 03:39, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
Sorry I'm just talking about the girls I went to school with. You girls are probably smarter cuz your already into magic and stuff so that doesn't mean you.


Obviously, MagicWatcher is very young. But I do want to point out that his attitude is the attitude of a young person TODAY - right here in the modern age. This is a reflection of the persistent attitude that women are somehow less than men. Itís not from the 1800s as it might sound. Itís here TODAY.

The discriminatory attitude of the magic fraternity is reflected in the very name of the fraternity. The Brotherhood. And yes, I find that hurtful. It has always carried with it an air or ďyouíre not welcomeĒ with it. Itís also hurtful to read the threads here at the Cafť that demean women.

Yes, things are much better than they used to be. But misogynistic attitudes are far from vanished from the fraternity. Itís hurtful when people like Bill brush off misogyny like itís not a big deal; like Iím just some silly girl making a big deal out of nothing. His attitude is precisely the attitude which enables people like MagicWatcher to think the way they do. People like MagicWatcher seldom have to worry about any backlash from other men who would defend women. In most cases, they take the stance Bill does; that women are making a big deal out of nothing.

I just wanted to clarify my thoughts regarding this matter and now Iím done with it.


Holly
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Bill Palmer
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Holly:

The fact is that since such discriminatory statements have been eliminated, it means that officially discrimination in the organizations is a thing of the past.

It's not there any more.

Finished.

Gone.

Done with.

I want you to point out any specific instance of misogyny in ANY piece of literature published by the IBM, the SAM or the Magic Circle since the official changes took place, that are not related to personality conflicts that are based on other problems.

You can't do it.

If I make a statement about the ability of any magician, male, or otherwise, I guarantee you it's based on that person's actual skills and not on anything else.

Give me one instance where you haven't gotten a job or where you have been mistreated due to some kind of misogyny practiced by any of the groups I have mentioned.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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HollyMental
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Quote:
On 2008-05-31 20:22, Bill Palmer wrote:
Holly:

The fact is that since such discriminatory statements have been eliminated, it means that officially discrimination in the organizations is a thing of the past.

It's not there any more.

Finished.

Gone.

Done with.


Why were they there to begin with Bill? Because of the ATTITUDES of the men in magic. All those attitudes didnít just change because some organizations changed some wording in their official documents.

Quote:
On 2008-05-31 20:22, Bill Palmer wrote:

I want you to point out any specific instance of misogyny in ANY piece of literature published by the IBM, the SAM or the Magic Circle since the official changes took place, that are not related to personality conflicts that are based on other problems.

You can't do it.


Again, just because they changed some literature doesnít erase the attitudes that existed prior to the changes. Again, Iím referring to the ATTITUDES of men. Your attempts to shift the focus onto official documents is just a straw man.

Quote:
On 2008-05-31 20:22, Bill Palmer wrote:

If I make a statement about the ability of any magician, male, or otherwise, I guarantee you it's based on that person's actual skills and not on anything else.


Good for you. Now whenís the last time you spoke up for women when men were standing around running us down like dogs? Or did you just stand there quietly? Or did you passively agree with them?

You have nothing to say when someone like Rocco Silano talks about what ďwomen were made for.Ē You think this attitude doesnít hurt anyone when someone of his level says something so stupid and misogynistic? He compared women to the animals in his show. Anyone who thinks misogynistic attitudes donít hurt women is just naÔve.

Quote:
On 2008-05-31 20:22, Bill Palmer wrote:

Give me one instance where you haven't gotten a job or where you have been mistreated due to some kind of misogyny practiced by any of the groups I have mentioned.


Again, here you go shifting the focus. Go back and read my initial post. Itís very clear I was referring to the ATTITUDES of men. YOU are the one who brought up all these organizations. The only one I mentioned was the Brotherhood. The name of an organization is representative of that organization. And the name clearly represents the exclusion of women.

All this talk about those organizations as a whole is just obfuscation on your part. You think you can shift the focus away from the attitudes of individual members. You figure that way Iíll have to indict the whole organization. No Bill Iím just talking about guys like you; the kind of guy who says nothing when someone says something like what MagicWatcher said and then insinuates I should be shamed for not liking it.

Well, Sorry to disappoint you Bill but Iím not ashamed of what I said. It is a true and accurate assessment of the majority of male ATTITUDES as I have experienced them. I have met some wonderful and supportive men in magic but I can say with all certainty that they have been few and far between compared to the number who have been demeaning and belittling toward women.

If you have something to say about the ATTITUDES of male magicians in general toward women, say it. But rattling on and on about technicalities in the official documents of a bunch of organizations is just evading the real issue.


Holly
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Bill Palmer
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Holly:

I can honestly say that I have not been in any discussions about the abilities of female magicians in which their abilities as a group were impugned or otherwise slighted in which I did not stand up for them. It has been so long since I even heard such a discussion that your comment is totally without merit.

I don't associate with bigots, male or female. This would, unfortunately, include you, because you have prejudged my intention and attitude without actually understanding it.

Since the Magic Circle decided to admit female members, there have been a couple of female members who have complained about such a bias. However, knowing these particular members and their way of dealing with people, I can assure you that any negative statements about them were not based on their skill as performers, but on the fact that they were simply difficult people to deal with.

I have been in the position of hiring performers on many occasions. If I have two performers to consider for one slot, one male and the other female, I hire the one that I consider to be a better performer.

For certain things, this performer would be Trixie Bond or Cherie Kay.

Why? Because for the shows that I don't take, if they are close-up or childrens shows, Trixie will be better than just about anyone else I know at filling the requirements. For hypnosis, it will be Cherie Kay.

For another specific type of show, I send John Star.

All of these are based on their abilities to entertain, their reliability, and
THE WAY THEY GET ALONG WITH PEOPLE.

If you are offended by the fact that the International BROTHERHOOD of Magicians has not changed its name to the International SIBLINGHOOD of Magicians, maybe you should check your definitions.

While the basic definition of the word does imply maleness, when it comes to trades, professions, etc., such as the IBM, the meaning is non gender-specific.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
HollyMental
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Quote:
On 2008-06-01 13:13, Bill Palmer wrote:
Holly:

I don't associate with bigots, male or female. This would, unfortunately, include you, because you have prejudged my intention and attitude without actually understanding it.



Now Iím a bigot? Because I have an opinion you donít agree with? I stated my opinion based on my own personal experience. First you wanted to shame me. Now you want to throw me in with all bigots.

I didnít prejudge your intention. I understand you perfectly based on your words here in this thread. You are a malicious and desperate person who will make any disgusting allegation to make me look bad or feel bad just because you donít like my opinion.


Holly
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Bill Palmer
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No, Holly. You do a fine job of that all by yourself.

You certainly chose your login name well.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
HollyMental
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Bill, I never spoke to you in my life before you came into this thread. In the very FIRST post you ever directed to me, you called one member an idiot and told me I should be ashamed. Thatís your opening post to the very FIRST dialogue we ever had. When you approach someone so belligerently, youíre not going to get a very positive response.

No one could have misunderstood your intention. Clearly it was to berate me. When you didnít get a positive response - as you no doubt expected - you decided to childishly and irresponsibly throw around the word bigot.

Now this:

Quote:
On 2008-06-01 14:05, Bill Palmer wrote:

You certainly chose your login name well.


I suppose in your world that passes as clever. This latest barb from you just further demonstrates that Iím right in thinking youíre a mean spirited and vindictive person.


Holly
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Poveglia
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Not to sound sexist or anything, but I for one enjoy watching female magicians more than males. I find it extremely sexy. Like I said, please don't take this the wrong way because I am not trying to sound like a masochistic pig or anything, but it is true.

Take for example the show T.H.E.M. that Magic X put on. The guys would do tricks and in my head I'd be like "Seen that.....done that....pretty cool..etc" then Lisa would hop on the TV and do something remotely simplistic like UFO hover card and it had my full attention lol.

At least that's the way it is for me, so I'm assuming a lot of males who watch magic would feel the same way. Plus the attire that female magicians wear is motivation enough to watch them. Like I said, please don't take this the wrong way like I am objectifying women or making them out to seem like eye candy, just stating that I find female magicians to be captivating and feel they are a great asset to the art.
Tyler
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I'm with you Povelglia. I also think because there are fewer female magicians, they gain everyone's attention quicker. It's the unique factor that I think is the key here. (Also, the misdirection factor that I as a male can't help) I can be burning her hands waiting for the double lift (no pun intended) and will almost always get "misdirected" somehow. Always enjoy a good magic performance but like you my attention is held longer for a female performer.

Mike
vinsmagic
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Holly lets see your avatar I hate talking to rabbit ears
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
HollyMental
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Quote:
On 2008-06-02 15:32, vinsmagic wrote:
Holly lets see your avatar I hate talking to rabbit ears


Clearly this is an antagonistic and provocative post. If you hate talking to a member with a default avatar - (tellingly Iím the only one youíve ever expressed any problem with regarding this issue) - then I suggest you simply donít. No one is forcing you to talk to anyone with a default avatar. Problem solved.

Glad I could be of help.


Holly
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Dr. Delusion
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Maybe it's like a lot of you have said already. So far there's not a lot of desire for girls to become magicians. I have a list of 5 young ladies I rotate through for my shows. On average I have 2 of them assisting me at a show. They all started helping while in High School, and all of them are now in collage and most have part time jobs. I'm always asking them if they would like to perform a trick or 2 during the show. They all have told me about the same thing. They love being part of the show and enjoy magic, but they have no desire to perform. I would imagine things would change a lot if there was a female magician out there that was on T.V. a lot and became a role model, sort of like the way it was for girls soccer when Mia Hamm came along. I know that there's a lot of female magicians out there now, and almost any one of them could easily become that role model.
Bob.
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Quote:
On 2008-03-13 15:53, jaynet wrote:
Lets see...off the top of my head. Luna Shimada, Ariel Black, Melinda, Galina, Julianna Chen, Funovitz.
The prejudice here is you think that there are not many female magicians and illusionists.
Both now and in history female magicians abound.


Yes there are many.

Way too many.

For me, women doing magic just doesn't click. Kind of like a male wet nurse. http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/misc......men.html

Sure they can do it, but it's weird.
mark2004
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Quote:
On 2008-06-22 03:21, Magic Spank wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-03-13 15:53, jaynet wrote:
Lets see...off the top of my head. Luna Shimada, Ariel Black, Melinda, Galina, Julianna Chen, Funovitz.
The prejudice here is you think that there are not many female magicians and illusionists.
Both now and in history female magicians abound.


Yes there are many.

Way too many.

For me, women doing magic just doesn't click. Kind of like a male wet nurse. http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/misc......men.html

Sure they can do it, but it's weird.


I guess none of the female magicians here have bothered responding to the post from "Magic Spank" because it could be trolling (ie. posting offensive messages on discussion forums for the sole purpose of getting other people riled). But moronic prejudice like that shouldn't be allowed to pass unchallenged.

Watching women perform magic seems extremely natural to me and not at all weird. And when it involves talented performers such as those previously listed it is a great pleasure.

Frankly, the weird thing is the way some people in the business seem to have the idea that women can't or shouldn't do magic.
todsky
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MagicSpank is probably just being purposely obnoxious to try to get a rise from the women, which is probably the only way he can get a rise. Either that, or he is a neanderthal who has been teleported to our present age. So he is best ignored and left to crawl back into his cave.
ElectricBlue
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Yup sounds like it, Maybe he should change his name to magic wank? Sounds far more appropriate.
QwEen_oV_mAgic
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I don't knnow about other contries but I am a female magician in NZ and I think 1 of the reasons there are not as many females magicians here might be because magic is views as a bit of a 'geeks' hobby
magic4u02
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I think it is partially that and the notion of the simple fact that magic and the magician has always been portrayed as a male figure for the longest of times. I myself am a very lucky man. I am married to a beautiful lady who not only enjoys magic but is my magical partner on stage.

Notice I said partner and not assistant. To Kelly and I, there is a HUGE difference. She does way more then assist me. She is an intrical part in everything we do on stage. Without her in the show, the show and routines do not work. She is also a magician and she loves the art of magic as much as I do.

I am proud of her and also proud that we both get the chance to teahc other young ladies the art of magic through the SYM program both locally and nationally. It is wonderful to see so many young ladies getting involved and it is a joy to teach them our fine art.

Kyle
Kyle Peron

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