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The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ The Feminine Mystique Ľ Ľ Why are there so few female magicians? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Nell
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Quote:
On 2008-06-23 03:48, mark2004 wrote:

I guess none of the female magicians here have bothered responding to the post from "Magic Spank" because...


B-I-N-G-O!

It takes more than that to get me riled...and trust me, ask around, it happens. Sterling Dietz once told me, "I pity the mugger who meets you in a dark alley..." That was one of best compliments I've received. For a comment to be dignified with a response, a legitimate point must be made first. We're all entitled to opinions. I can think of a few Winston Churchill quotes which would adapt nicely here, but there's no point...

What actually bothers me more is the bantering above... This thread went waaaaaay off course. I hate to feel the need to say it, but I'm really tired of hearing droves of females in magic whine about discrimination. To me, it sounds like a dying cat. If you don't like it...don't sit around and complain--CHANGE IT! Use the effort that goes into arguing and apply it to making the best show/act you possibly can. PROVE that you belong where you are. Play the part of victim and that's who you'll be. I've never bought into that and I've never been treated with anything but respect from males in the community. Sure, there will always be a few *ahem* 'idiots' as I believe Bill put it, but in this human society, extremely unfortunately, we'll always have racists and neo-'s too... It's entirely wrong and I'll stand up against it, but I'll also have the facts first and know who my opponent is. We can't make someone see things in a different light if we don't understand why they formed the opinion they have in the first place!

In this particular case, I feel certain that things were taken far out of context. Mr. Palmer has never been anything but considerate to females in this industry, to the best of my knowledge and experience. Yes, often he has even taken up a fight on our behalf.

Granted, I'm not saying the issues aren't there, or that they should be ignored, but it's all "sticks and stones". Opening oneself up to victimization allows you to be victimized. I'm sure there are people who don't feel that I, as a female, should be a magician. However, not once, in my 18+ years in magic has someone confronted me directly with that. Sure that time may, and more than likely will come, but I will not eat my words then. I won't let one bad apple represent an entire bushel. That is entirely unfair. I'm going to continue to do what I've been doing and hopefully do it better each time.

I remember doing magic in public when I was much younger and having a group of laypersons watching. Many were thinking or saying, 'This kid's going to show us a little trick...' or to top that, 'This LITTLE GIRL is going to shows us a little magic trick'. Then I'd pull out something entirely professional, leave them speechless, smile, thank them kindly for watching, and move on. Those opinions never lasted after that. I'd often have the same people beg to see more next time I was around. That's how we battle stereotypes, with action, not words: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Indeed, they only make me stronger!

And yes, many things are said, especially in this forum, to try to make us ladies p.o.-ed. Stick around long enough, those posts are easy to spot, and believe it or not, even easier to ignore!

Please understand that I truly mean no disrespect or personal attack on anyone involved in this discussion. If anyone feels as such, I'm sorry, but I felt this needed to be said and it's not the first time I've spoken out about such a thing. I fully support women in magic and will, naturally, for the rest of my life, but I intend to fight the fight which needs to be fought. That's where we will make our mark and a difference. Anyhow, for the benefit of the forum as a whole, I implore everyone to leave needless bickering and childish name-calling behind, or at the very least, take it outside next time. That was enough to make me feel a little ashamed and I wasn't even directly involved... Thanks Smile
"A trick may be very good...but...the illusionist must be better than the trick." -Renť Lavand
HollyMental
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Quote:
On 2008-06-26 18:46, Nell wrote:
I won't let one bad apple represent an entire bushel. That is entirely unfair.


Yes, youíre right; which is why I didnít do that. Just to keep the record straight; I never said all men were discriminatory against women. What I said was that the majority still had misogynistic attitudes toward women. That is purely my opinion although I would be willing to bet an extensive survey would bear that out to be true. As Iíve stated on previous posts, I love men and I think there are some wonderful men out there. Some are progressive and some are not; the same with women.

Quote:
On 2008-06-26 18:46, Nell wrote:
What actually bothers me more is the bantering above... This thread went waaaaaay off course. I hate to feel the need to say it, but I'm really tired of hearing droves of females in magic whine about discrimination. To me, it sounds like a dying cat. If you don't like it...don't sit around and complain--CHANGE IT!


Education and discourse in these matters are also important ways of doing something about it.

Quote:
On 2008-06-26 18:46, Nell wrote:
In this particular case, I feel certain that things were taken far out of context. Mr. Palmer has never been anything but considerate to females in this industry, to the best of my knowledge and experience. Yes, often he has even taken up a fight on our behalf.


I donít see that I took anything out of context. Mr. Palmerís intention was quite clear. He came with the intention of causing trouble. I stated an opinion he didnít like and he decided he would come in here and demean me.

Mr. Palmer could just as easily have said, ďHolly, I donít agree with you. I think the majority of men in magic are quite supportive. I donít believe there is a lingering misogynistic attitude still prevalent among the majority of men in magic in this day and age.Ē

But no; he came in here in attack mode and grossly misrepresented what I said. When I didnít just lie down and let him run over me, he threw around straw men and took a cheap shot with the word bigot in a shallow attempt to gain some sort of moral high ground.

He has no idea just how ridiculous it is for him to call me a bigot. Iím not getting into the extensive list of things I support and have voted for that more than clearly demonstrate Iím not a bigot but suffice it to say I support rights and equality for all people; men, women, black, white, gay, straight. So for the uninformed to call me a bigot is quite ridiculous and clearly a cheap shot.

Quote:
On 2008-06-26 18:46, Nell wrote:
Anyhow, for the benefit of the forum as a whole, I implore everyone to leave needless bickering and childish name-calling behind, or at the very least, take it outside next time. That was enough to make me feel a little ashamed and I wasn't even directly involved... Thanks Smile


I agree that childish name calling has no place here - or anywhere for that matter. However; people need to answer publicly for irresponsible public statements. To publicly call someone a bigot is one of the worst things you can call someone. Itís not a word that should be thrown around irresponsibly. People like Bill Palmer shouldnít be allowed to take their cheap shots and then have everything quietly swept under the rug.

Iím sure Mr. Palmer is not a bad person just as Iím sure Magic Spank or MagicWatcher are not bad people either. At least Iím willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. But when they make public statements such as the ones they made, Iím sorry but someone ought to call them on it. Iím very happy to see that two men have called Magic Spank on his comments. I think they should be supported and appreciated for their efforts and I applaud them.

Itís true we canít fight everyone and one must pick oneís battles. But believe it or not, speaking out against injustices really does have an impact. Minds do respond to reason over time. Women eventually won the right to vote because it just became increasingly impossible to mount a logical argument against it. When arguments eventually reach the point such that they can be consistently demonstrated to be unable to hold up against comprehensive logic, those arguments begin to buckle and dissolve and minds really do begin to change. It may not seem like it but the battle against racism is being won. Misogyny will follow. Prejudice against homosexuals will follow that. And whatever other prejudices some humans can concoct to make themselves better than others. Ultimately itís all snobbery to me.

Itís a fact that the numbers of people in a chosen field are proportionate to the social acceptance of those people in that field. If the numbers of women in magic are lower than the numbers of men; independent of all other factors, there remains an irrevocable connection to social acceptance. The more women are accepted in the field, the more the numbers will grow. There is certainly more to it than that; however, thereís little doubt that social acceptance of female magicians is also a factor. For pointing that simple fact out, Iíve been called a bigot with the insinuation that I hate all men. Now THATíS taking something out of context.


Holly
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Nell
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In regards to most of what you have just written, Holly, I certainly do agree. Thank you for seeing my post for what it was and not as an attack...

I feel that things were taken a bit out of context on both ends and things were taken far too personally until the issues were escalated beyond repair...

Personal issues should be handled privately, issues at large may be public. Personal attacks are just that and, if necessary, should remain so. An established thread is not an appropriate arena. That was all I was hoping to accomplish with my post. This is directed at no one and everyone, in particular.

That said, thanks for championing your fellow women in magic...
"A trick may be very good...but...the illusionist must be better than the trick." -Renť Lavand
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Quote:
On 2008-05-31 12:03, Bill Palmer wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-03-12 02:49, HollyMental wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-03-11 19:36, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
You gotta be smart in math and mechanical stuff to do good magic and girls aren't really that good at stuff like that.




Magicwatcher2005ís profile says heís an ďElectonics [sic] designer.Ē Apparently Mr. Math canít even spell his own occupation.

Sadly however his boneheaded comment seems to represent the majority of male opinions within the brotherhood. The magic fraternity still has a very archaic and misogynistic mindset. Even here at the Cafť, there are threads to discuss how to take advantage of women.

When will the magic fraternity become the magic community?


Holly


You are taking the comment of one idiot as representative of the majority of us.

Shame on you.

I have to agree. I'm new here, I know. But I have to say that as a Magic Chick, I was really looking forward to finding legitimate answers in this section to some technical questions, and I'm disappointed. I have found instead a lot of angry women.

Magicwatcher2005 may not have said it so eloquently, but his point about mathematics and mechanical aptitude is something I suspect is correct. However, there is a twist to this theory. For a very long time in schools, while women excelled in Language Arts, History, etc., men excelled in the subjects of Math and Science. There has been a huge effort to push girls into these subjects and level the playing field. They actually have changed the way they teach Math and Science in schools, to suit the learning styles of girls. *HOWEVER* While they did this for the girls, they DID NOT change the way the other subjects were taught to suit the learning styles of the boys. This has basically left the boys out to dry. Universities are beginning to see a dramatic change in the percentage of male applicants; it is now at approximately 40% versus the 60% application rate of females. I think this is because, as a side effect of teaching women that they could be successful in Math and Science, men were taught they could not be successful in any subject. Mind you, I'm not saying there aren't any males who score highly in school. I'm just saying the educational system has made it incredibly hard for the guys to do well. And if you're a parent of a male student of any age, you might agree.

I'm thinking that because of this shift in the Math and Science departments, we might just start to see more female magicians. Hopefully, the guys will stick around though, because I really enjoy their company! GUYS ARE NOT PIGS! I have not come across one male magician who did not encourage me to get involved. In fact, they all have been very supportive; it's the female magicians who tend to give me the evil eye!

For the record, I have a hard time learning effects because I have small hands and it's hard for me to hold onto things well. And no, I do not have any trouble performing while it's my time of the month. Smile
HollyMental
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Quote:
On 2008-06-30 21:12, SillverFoxx wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-05-31 12:03, Bill Palmer wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-03-12 02:49, HollyMental wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-03-11 19:36, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
You gotta be smart in math and mechanical stuff to do good magic and girls aren't really that good at stuff like that.




Magicwatcher2005ís profile says heís an ďElectonics [sic] designer.Ē Apparently Mr. Math canít even spell his own occupation.

Sadly however his boneheaded comment seems to represent the majority of male opinions within the brotherhood. The magic fraternity still has a very archaic and misogynistic mindset. Even here at the Cafť, there are threads to discuss how to take advantage of women.

When will the magic fraternity become the magic community?


Holly


You are taking the comment of one idiot as representative of the majority of us.

Shame on you.


I have to agreeÖ


You can agree with Bill if you want but what about the fact that what he said isnít true? I didnít take MagicWatcherís comment as representative of the majority of males. Thatís just what Bill said and it isnít true. Read my original post again. I didnít base my opinion of men on MagicWatcherís post alone as Bill claimed. I based it off a lifetime of experiences. Itís been my experience that the majority of men think women are less intelligent than themselves. If youíve had a different experience then fine. Iím only speaking for myself.

Bill grossly misrepresented what I said and started a huge argument. One you apparently wish to continue. Seriously; Billís gross misrepresentation needs to be cleared up before people burn me at the stake.

Quote:
On 2008-06-30 21:12, SillverFoxx wrote:
GUYS ARE NOT PIGS!


I never insinuated at any time that I thought men were pigs. I never said such a thing and I have never said such a stupid thing in all of my life. I love men as I have stated repeatedly. I think men get a raw deal on some things and I think women get a raw deal on some things. I donít have a blanket view of men. Overall I think men are wonderful and I wouldnít want to live in a world without them.

I agree with much of what you said but seriously, youíve got me all wrong. The only thing Iíve gotten angry about is the constant misrepresenting of my statements. Other than that, Iíve made nothing but observations, none of which I would refuse to back away from in the face of any tangible evidence to the contrary. Iím open to have my opinion changed at anytime anyone can show me a change is warranted.

Quote:
On 2008-06-30 21:12, SillverFoxx wrote:

Öit's the female magicians who tend to give me the evil eye!


How is this blanket statement any different than what I said? This is your opinion based on your experience. Yet because itís women youíre badmouthing, thereís little chance that the Bill Palmers of the world will come in here and chastise you for making such a blanket statement.

Seriously, this whole thing is getting ridiculous. I donít know how much clearer I could be. Iím going to try and leave this nonsense alone unless someone else wants to come in here and just outright butcher my words some more. In the meantime, you can all go get the kindling for the fire. It looks like youíve found your witch.


Holly
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SillverFoxx
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Hi Holly! Smile
I had no intention of targeting you or anyone else in my post; I'm sorry if you felt attacked. I had skimmed the posts on this thread, and wanted to try to address the original question... because it comes up with my friends a lot... but it had gotten somewhat muddled. I was actually just pointing out that there could be an increase in female magicians now, and used that specific post as a starting place. And I figured I'd stick up for the guys a little, because I think they tend to get the short end of the stick sometimes. I'm sorry if you thought I was passing it to you.
Sweet dreams, and I'm glad to meet another magic chickie!! Smile
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Okay. Iím sorry too. Itís just that since Iíve been here, Iíve been called a bigot by two different people after just meeting them and Iíve been accused about three times of being some man hating monster who feeds on male children. It seems like things go immediately to extremes around here. Itís as if you can say, ďI thinkÖ,Ē and then suddenly someone is saying, ďOh yeah, well youíre an evil bigot!Ē So I apologize for being defensive.

And yes, youíre right. Itís important to acknowledge the positive things men do while discussing anything negative so as not to risk sounding as though bashing them. Itís true theyíve done many wonderful things that deserve to be recognized.

Iíve always felt that men and women should be able to be different and respect each other for who we are and celebrate the differences. Iíve always hated the idea of a woman earning respect by becoming like a man. I think women are still struggling with our identities in male dominated fields. It seems like the question is always how can I be a woman and be feminine and still get these guys to respect me and accept me on an equal par? As women become able to more clearly define ourselves as performers in this field, it will get easier and easier I think. At least I hope.


Holly


P.S. Thanks for being so nice. Iíve been hoping for a more positive direction for this thread.
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LOL!! You're very welcome chica!

Play nice people; it's much more fun that way!! If we could all do everything just as perfectly as the next person, that would be boring and no one would get a chance to shine.
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All I cansay is that I wish some of the male magicians were as creative and as hard working as some of the female magician friends I have had the pleasure to meet and work with.

I am a very very lucky guy. my wife is not only my partner in life but my partner in magic to. I am blessed that we can both share the stage together. She is NOT just an assistant and she is WAY more then a box jumber. My wife is my Magical Partner.

I simply can not do my shows without her. She has become an intrical part of each routine we do and create together. We play off each other and she has become quite an accomplished magician in her own right.

I am so very porud of her and recently she just won 3rd place stage for the very first stage act she ever created. She is not good because she is female. She is not favored because she wears lipstick and makeup. She is good because she works hard at it and gives back to magic. I for one respect her and anyone for that regardless of what sex they are.

Just my opinion.

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Quote:
On 2008-06-23 12:15, todsky wrote:
MagicSpank is probably just being purposely obnoxious to try to get a rise from the women, which is probably the only way he can get a rise.

Quote:
On 2008-06-23 22:51, blueberry_fox wrote:
Yup sounds like it, Maybe he should change his name to magic wank? Sounds far more appropriate.


Can't get it up? Magic Wank?

Grow up people. If you can't deal with the fact that women aren't universally accepted in the role of magician therapy may be in order.

A woman who does magic is a witch. Look it up.

Women are free to do whatever they want. If I find a woman doing magic, or playing football strange, that's my opinion. Many people are uncomfortable with a male nurse.

But before you start wondering aloud how I might get a rise or discussing my wanking abilites you should consider that this is an all ages board.

The question was why aren't there more female magicians and my opinion is not only not so unusual but offers some insight into the reasons why.

Your comments do not.
mark2004
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On 2008-07-15 01:37, Magic Spank wrote:

Grow up people. If you can't deal with the fact that women aren't universally accepted in the role of magician therapy may be in order.


Yup, therapy for misogynists like you Magic Spank.

Quote:
A woman who does magic is a witch. Look it up.


I did and I can confirm it's perfectly possible for a woman who does magic to be a magician. What's more, "witch" is not generally an appropriate description for a woman who performs magic as a stage art (unless she is playing the character of a witch for dramatic purposes). The term "witch" has specific connotations that relate to the supernatural or occult meaning of the word magic.

Quote:
Women are free to do whatever they want. If I find a woman doing magic, or playing football strange, that's my opinion.


Not a very helpful opinion though. And everyone else's opinion seems to be that you'd be better taking your opinion elsewhere.

If your views were logically argued and you explained how you came by them then it might help us understand what's wrong with you. Unfortunately your reasoning seems to extend no further than an opinion that women performing magic is somehow wrong.

Quote:
Many people are uncomfortable with a male nurse.


Not exactly the same sort of situation is it? Even with close-up magicians we're not talking about the same sort of intimacy issues that cause some people to prefer to be treated by a nurse of a particular sex. You're not (I hope) expecting a magician to give you a bed bath or change your dressings.

Quote:
But before you start wondering aloud how I might get a rise or discussing my wanking abilites you should consider that this is an all ages board.

The question was why aren't there more female magicians and my opinion is not only not so unusual but offers some insight into the reasons why.


Well I suppose it illustrates how one of the reasons is the existence of misogynist twerps like you.
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Quote:
On 2008-07-15 14:46, mark2004 wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-07-15 01:37, Magic Spank wrote:


The question was why aren't there more female magicians and my opinion is not only not so unusual but offers some insight into the reasons why.


Well I suppose it illustrates how one of the reasons is the existence of misogynist twerps like you.

WOOHOO!!! NICE REPLY MARK 2004!!!
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Todsky wrote:

"...And there are very few working female magicians (stage or close-up) here in Canada. And I don't know a single one here in Montreal."

Hmmm, I guess that's "half true", Todsky. You have not yet met my wife, have you? But yo do know of her, from my tellingyo about her and the way we work together... don't you? She has been 50 percent of the Magical duo, "Max & Maxine" and has performed corporate magic with me in Montreal for the last 20 years.

You can see a photo of her on our web site at: http://www.maxmagician.com

and a videoclip of us working a room together on our "Close-up" page.

She is "not" my assistant, but my equal partner.

We use to perform a stage show together (where she was her own performer and not my assistant). Now, we perform primarily Mingling Magic toether.

In mingling magic, we stand at the doorway to the room together, greeting the guests as they enter --putting them in a fun-filled mood from the start, for the evening to come. Then, once the guests have all arrived, "Maxine" takes one part of the room and I take the other part. Then, then we ciculate. Maxinee performs her own set of magical effects and interactive routines seperately from me, while I perform my own set apart form her.

Lots of fun for us as a couple and as individual entertainers in our own right. And, of course, she is great at what she does.

Jonathan
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Mark2004 why so disturbed by my opinon?

It's not going to get you a date.

I don't consider myself a mysogynist since I harbor no hatred towards women.

Like many if not most others on this planet, I expect certain things of women. As I do of men.

I'm simply expressing a viewpoint. I understand your need to attack me but it's got nothing to offer this topic.

My wife has been involved in magic, my daughter does magic. The fact is that there is a huge hurdle for them to overcome if they decide to become performing magicians and I'm not the one who created it, nor perpetuates it. I'm simply stating the fact that many people (probably the majority) expect a magician to be a man. This isn't something I've created. If you choose to deny that it's a reality in our society so be it. But there's no reason to attack me.

Picking apart my comments regarding male nurses and such are a pathetic attempt at avoiding the point of the thread.

Why are there so few female magicians?

Again, my answer is that many such as myself expect a magician to be a male. Changing this expectation will require more than verbal degradation to those who expect it.
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Quote:
On 2008-07-31 03:32, Magic Spank wrote:
Mark2004 why so disturbed by my opinon?


I'm not that disturbed, just saddened. The reason I responded is that prejudices need to be challenged

Quote:
It's not going to get you a date.


I'm not looking to date you

Quote:
I don't consider myself a mysogynist since I harbor no hatred towards women.


Yet you display blatant prejudice.

Quote:
Like many if not most others on this planet, I expect certain things of women. As I do of men.

I'm simply expressing a viewpoint. I understand your need to attack me but it's got nothing to offer this topic.


On the contrary. The attitude you displayed in your post is an example of one of the factors that has held back women in magic.

Quote:
My wife has been involved in magic, my daughter does magic. The fact is that there is a huge hurdle for them to overcome if they decide to become performing magicians and I'm not the one who created it, nor perpetuates it.


You might not have been the first to take the attitude you've taken but your earlier posts here certainly seem to be helping to perpetuate it.

Quote:
I'm simply stating the fact that many people (probably the majority) expect a magician to be a man. This isn't something I've created. If you choose to deny that it's a reality in our society so be it. But there's no reason to attack me.


I think your posts went beyond simply stating a fact - you seemed to be endorsing that fact.

Quote:
Picking apart my comments regarding male nurses and such are a pathetic attempt at avoiding the point of the thread.


It was you who cited nurses as an example. Presumably you thought it was an example that was relevant to the debate. You should have expected it to be picked apart. I think it was you who was trying to duck the issue by bringing up nurses and me who was trying to get back to the point of the thread by stating the differences between the two situations.

Quote:
Why are there so few female magicians?

Again, my answer is that many such as myself expect a magician to be a male. Changing this expectation will require more than verbal degradation to those who expect it.


It is fair enough for you to point out that significant numbers of people seem to favour male magicians. But that doesn't make it a good reason for women to stay out of magic. Actually it is a rather bad reason. The problem is that your posts read as if you endorse the idea that prejudice or the status quo should determine how things ought to be. Try telling that to the civil rights movement.

I repeat what I said at the beginning - prejudices need to be challenged. The problem with your posts is that they seem to be supporting prejudice. If I have totally misundrstood you then I apologise. But that's the way your posts read to me and to others.
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I'm going to take some heat for this.. but the reason why there aren't more women magicians is multi-fold.

Men are pigs. If you've ever traveled through a magic convention and listened to whispered comments.. male magicians aren't very open to women as competition.

Most women aren't very good magicians. This is the fault of what we view as a "magician". Seeing a woman get on stage.. and try to do her version of a male act is rough to watch. It's even harder for a woman illusionist because so many illusions are "torture" tricks. It's hard to watch a woman do these.. if you do it to a man.. it's a gimmick. If you do it to a woman... it's just odd. There are several really good exceptions to this rule.. but LONG GONE are the days of seeing Dianna Zimmerman do the sawing in half with a male assistant and call it Women's Lib.

It's as hard for a woman to develop a "talkie" magic act as it is for a woman to develop a "comedy" act. Woman have to walk a fine line in comedy. They need to be funny.. but if they cross the line into being offensive.. it's not as acceptable as it is when men cross the same line. I don't think that's OK.. it's just the way it is.

Women don't take chances. They're taught at a very early age to behave. That's a DARN shame.

The visual is important. Men expect to see women on stage in a certain shape, size and demeanor. If you don't' fit the mold, you're going to be less successful. There are loads of fat magicians in cloths that don't fit doing shows all over the world. I call them slobs, some people call them entertainers. However, a woman magician that's out of shape in ill fitting clothes would never make it past her first audition.

Come to think of it.. I'd LOVE to see more women in the magic field. It's a profession that's crying for new material, performed from a new perspective, all the while looking better doing it. (By looking better, I don't mean with the body of a supermodel... I'm just talking about clothes that are in style and FIT.)
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Quote:
On 2008-03-11 19:36, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
You gotta be smart in math and mechanical stuff to do good magic and girls aren't really that good at stuff like that.


Quote:
On 2008-05-31 15:17, HollyMental wrote:
Sadly however his boneheaded comment seems to represent the majority of male opinions within the brotherhoodÖIn my experience, that one idiot DOES represent the majority of males.


Quote:
On 2008-06-22 03:21, Magic Spank wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-03-13 15:53, jaynet wrote:
The prejudice here is you think that there are not many female magicians and illusionists.
Both now and in history female magicians abound.


Yes there are many.

Way too many.

For me, women doing magic just doesn't click. Kind of like a male wet nurse.

Sure they can do it, but it's weird.


Iím not going to presume I know the answer to this question or why some things are the way they are, but I must point out that I think the above statements are ridiculous. I do not, nor no I know anyone, who believes this, nor do I know anyone who believes that women canít be just as successful or more successful than men. Whether it be mathematics politics or magic, success has nothing to do with gender or race, etc. The results of the last presidential election are more evidence of this fact.

Quote:
On 2008-06-26 18:46, Nell wrote:
If you don't like it...don't sit around and complain--CHANGE IT! Use the effort that goes into arguing and apply it to making the best show/act you possibly can. PROVE that you belong where you are. Play the part of victim and that's who you'll be. I've never bought into that and I've never been treated with anything but respect from males in the community. Sure, there will always be a few *ahem* 'idiots' as I believe Bill put it, but in this human society, extremely unfortunately, we'll always have racists and neo-'s too... It's entirely wrong and I'll stand up against itÖ


I could not have said it any better, so I wonít even try. Good post Nell.
HollyMental
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Nice quote mining. I love the way you mixed and matched my words (from conversations with two different people) for optimal effect. I tried to explain my position (which has been repeatedly misunderstood) at great length but thanks for trying to instigate an argument all over again.

As I said, I was referring to attitudes and I NEVER said it was all men. I say itís a predominant attitude. You say itís not. So we just disagree there.

As to how to change it, attitudes donít change overnight. It takes time. And Iím satisfied attitudes are improved now over what they were in the past. Iím also satisfied that things continue to improve. Oh, and talking about it and discussing it, challenging views, IS doing something about it.

With that, I hope I can one day be done with this conversation. At least until the next time someone decides to misinterpret or quote mine my words looking for an argument.


Holly
The devil can advocate for himself.
Ken Northridge
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Quote:
On 2009-01-04 13:51, HollyMental wrote:
Nice quote mining. I love the way you mixed and matched my words (from conversations with two different people) for optimal effect. I tried to explain my position (which has been repeatedly misunderstood) at great length but thanks for trying to instigate an argument all over again.


In quoting someone, I thought the ďÖ.Ē was the universal symbol for saying, ďIíve left something out of this personís quote.Ē If I am wrong about that, or you feel I have misinterpreted you, I am sorry. Quite frankly I donít think I did, since you just stated AGAIN what I am calling a ridicules statement.

Quote:
On 2009-01-04 13:51, HollyMental wrote:
As I said, I was referring to attitudes and I NEVER said it was all men. I say itís a predominant attitude. You say itís not. So we just disagree there.


Itís the Ďpredominantí or Ďmajorityí that is ridiculous. When you make a statement like, ďIt seems to represent the majority of male opinion in the brotherhood that women are not good at math and mechanical stuff,Ē on a public forum like this, do you have any idea how many men youíve just insulted? In my opinion it is a very small minority. That is the point I wanted to make. You are right, we disagree.

Quote:
On 2009-01-04 13:51, HollyMental wrote:
With that, I hope I can one day be done with this conversation. At least until the next time someone decides to misinterpret or quote mine my words looking for an argument.


If you would like to be done with this conversation, I suggest you ask the moderators to delete your posts.

I am not looking for an argument. I made a post on this thread because of several (not just yours) outrages statements made. I suspect this is the same reason you made your first post. So, maybe we are not so different after all.

And humbly, just for the record, my wife teaches Physics and Chemistry and I will proudly admit, she is far smarter than I, as are many women.
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Quote:
On 2009-01-04 15:19, Ken Northridge wrote:
In quoting someone, I thought the ďÖ.Ē was the universal symbol for saying, ďIíve left something out of this personís quote.Ē


Yes but you left a great deal out and mined specifically to skew perception of my overall view.

Quote:
On 2009-01-04 15:19, Ken Northridge wrote:

I am not looking for an argument.


Your actions speak otherwise. When you see an argument has occurred in a thread and ended, there can be only one reason you would drudge it all up; youíre looking for an argument.


Listen Ken, I was admittedly upset with the initial post I responded to. My first mistake was in thinking others would find it understandable why I would be upset. I was wrong. I see now that I will be vilified regardless of what I say. So what can I say to put an end to people quoting select pieces of my words to make my views look more extreme than they are? Trying to explain my views is to no avail so what can I say, Ken?

I was wrong. Will that end this?


Holly
The devil can advocate for himself.
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