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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Feminine Mystique » » Why are there so few female magicians? (7 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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danaruns
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Quote:
On Oct 6, 2018, David_MacFarlane wrote:
Maybe. I think there's also something to the idea that men feel a need to be entertaining to attract women's attention. A guy can practice an Ambitious Card routine and get some attention from girls... A girl can get the same attention from guys by smiling.


Adult men need to get over the notion that men can gain favor from women by doing magic. Not only is it not the case for those past adolescence, it's kind of sad. See last night's SNL sketch. https://youtu.be/yAH9_HUACQ8

Fun fact: At Magic University at the Magic Castle, the students who start Magic 1 are about half women. But there are barely any who finish the courses. Perhaps the men here would like to speculate about how the innate differences between men and women are to blame for this odd and unavoidable outcome.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
David_MacFarlane
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Now you're being mean. I get quite a bit of attention from women by doing magic.

I think there are two distinct things going on... magic isn't as attractive to women as it is to some men* and the magic community isn't attractive / welcoming to women.

Thoughts?

*I think magic has particular attraction to people who like the little power kick off I know a secret that you don't. That may not put the finest point on it... But there is something to the joke, "Why did I go into magic? I wasn't cool enough for Dungeons and Dragons."
danaruns
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Misogynistic, paternalistic, sexist, and dismissive magic community, lagging behind all other arts. Lack of female magician role models. Historical relegation of women to assistant status as sex objects. The vast majority of tricks, costumes, methods all designed for men's wardrobes, bodies and personalities. Women conceived of as nothing more than a "novelty act" (I actually had a producer tell me he wouldn't hire two women for a show just as he wouldn't hire two jugglers or two ventriloquists for a show), and correlating lack of work opportunities. Lack of community for women in magic. Magic as a whole is presented to the public as a masculine "power" pursuit.

Here in this very forum there are threads where male magicians talk about female magicians first and foremost about their bodies and their attractiveness rather than their magic. E.g.:

Quote:
I just love to watch female magicians.

Here's the beautiful, sexy and extremely talented Katalin


Quote:
My gosh! She is one of the prettiest girls I have ever seen! I have a problem: I can't keep my eyes off her legs! Major distraction! Yeah, this is another girl (like Alana) that teases and mesmermizes the audience with that "look". The eye contact. The little smile. You KNOW she's GOTCHA! Incredible.


Quote:
That's why I think female magicians have better misdirection than guy magicians. They have more "tools" at their disposal.


Quote:
She is so .damn BEAUTIFUL! My gosh...I can't stop watching her! She is...exotic. Same way Jolene Blalock or Jeri Ryan are exotic. Man, she could go places...


Quote:
I would like to date a female magician.


Quote:
When Katalin comes out on the stage and smiles, believe me, no one is thinking TALENT at that point. Not with a look like that.


Quote:
What most women who want to do stand-up magic have to do is, learn how to be a woman. They use to have schools to train woman to walk, move, stand up straight, etc. I think they called it charm school.

They need to use their sex appeal in a good subdued manner. Remember you have to appeal to women as well as men, and children. Having sex appeal without being sexy is very sexy.


Quote:
That architecture can be very distracting! Good misdirection! I really would like to study those artistic lines! In much closer detail...


Very disappointing.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
gomerel
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Quote:
On Oct 10, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Misogynistic, paternalistic, sexist, and dismissive magic community, lagging behind all other arts. Lack of female magician role models. Historical relegation of women to assistant status as sex objects. The vast majority of tricks, costumes, methods all designed for men's wardrobes, bodies and personalities. Women conceived of as nothing more than a "novelty act" (I actually had a producer tell me he wouldn't hire two women for a show just as he wouldn't hire two jugglers or two ventriloquists for a show), and correlating lack of work opportunities. Lack of community for women in magic. Magic as a whole is presented to the public as a masculine "power" pursuit.

Here in this very forum there are threads where male magicians talk about female magicians first and foremost about their bodies and their attractiveness rather than their magic. E.g.:

Quote:
I just love to watch female magicians.

Here's the beautiful, sexy and extremely talented Katalin


Quote:
My gosh! She is one of the prettiest girls I have ever seen! I have a problem: I can't keep my eyes off her legs! Major distraction! Yeah, this is another girl (like Alana) that teases and mesmermizes the audience with that "look". The eye contact. The little smile. You KNOW she's GOTCHA! Incredible.


Quote:
That's why I think female magicians have better misdirection than guy magicians. They have more "tools" at their disposal.


Quote:
She is so .damn BEAUTIFUL! My gosh...I can't stop watching her! She is...exotic. Same way Jolene Blalock or Jeri Ryan are exotic. Man, she could go places...


Quote:
I would like to date a female magician.


Quote:
When Katalin comes out on the stage and smiles, believe me, no one is thinking TALENT at that point. Not with a look like that.


Quote:
What most women who want to do stand-up magic have to do is, learn how to be a woman. They use to have schools to train woman to walk, move, stand up straight, etc. I think they called it charm school.

They need to use their sex appeal in a good subdued manner. Remember you have to appeal to women as well as men, and children. Having sex appeal without being sexy is very sexy.


Quote:
That architecture can be very distracting! Good misdirection! I really would like to study those artistic lines! In much closer detail...


Very disappointing.

:-(((
Dougini
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A lot of those quotes are mine. I am not a misogyn...misogin...mmmph. I do not hate women! I regret my posts are taken that way. I have never been married, no kids. My one true love died of breast cancer in 2005. I am 63 years old this week. I am done defending myself. OK ladies. I am a pig. An inappropriate boor. Ugly as a stump fence, bald and fat as a butterball. Laugh at me. Knock my hat off...throw me out. I stay home a lot now. I only go out when necessary. And I keep my EYES LOWERED! No "misunderstandings" that way. I am beginning to think most women hate me. The only thing more "disliked", I have found, than a Magician is a Disc jockey. I have been both. 46 years on the radio.

Not feeling too good about being "male" right now... Smile

Doug
Taylor Haws
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Quote:
On Oct 10, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Misogynistic, paternalistic, sexist, and dismissive magic community, lagging behind all other arts. Lack of female magician role models. Historical relegation of women to assistant status as sex objects. The vast majority of tricks, costumes, methods all designed for men's wardrobes, bodies and personalities. Women conceived of as nothing more than a "novelty act" (I actually had a producer tell me he wouldn't hire two women for a show just as he wouldn't hire two jugglers or two ventriloquists for a show), and correlating lack of work opportunities. Lack of community for women in magic. Magic as a whole is presented to the public as a masculine "power" pursuit.

Here in this very forum there are threads where male magicians talk about female magicians first and foremost about their bodies and their attractiveness rather than their magic. E.g.:

Quote:
I just love to watch female magicians.

Here's the beautiful, sexy and extremely talented Katalin


Quote:
My gosh! She is one of the prettiest girls I have ever seen! I have a problem: I can't keep my eyes off her legs! Major distraction! Yeah, this is another girl (like Alana) that teases and mesmermizes the audience with that "look". The eye contact. The little smile. You KNOW she's GOTCHA! Incredible.


Quote:
That's why I think female magicians have better misdirection than guy magicians. They have more "tools" at their disposal.


Quote:
She is so .damn BEAUTIFUL! My gosh...I can't stop watching her! She is...exotic. Same way Jolene Blalock or Jeri Ryan are exotic. Man, she could go places...


Quote:
I would like to date a female magician.


Quote:
When Katalin comes out on the stage and smiles, believe me, no one is thinking TALENT at that point. Not with a look like that.


Quote:
What most women who want to do stand-up magic have to do is, learn how to be a woman. They use to have schools to train woman to walk, move, stand up straight, etc. I think they called it charm school.

They need to use their sex appeal in a good subdued manner. Remember you have to appeal to women as well as men, and children. Having sex appeal without being sexy is very sexy.


Quote:
That architecture can be very distracting! Good misdirection! I really would like to study those artistic lines! In much closer detail...


Very disappointing.


I would just like to point out that many female magicians I see are hardly shy to show off there bodies.
Many of these quotes are simply pointing out an obvious advantage that women have. Men also have plenty of advantages. Saying that it is sexist to say that women can use there boobs as misdirection is like saying it's sexist to say that men have bigger hands that are better for palming, or have louder, more powerful voices.
My favorite quote from above is "I would like to date a female magician." How on earth is this sexist? I think it would be fun to date a female magician! There are very few magicians where I live and no magic shops, so I almost never get the opportunity to talk magic with anyone. It would be awesome to date somone who shares my hobby.
danaruns
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Quote:
On Oct 20, 2018, Taylor Haws wrote:
I would just like to point out that many female magicians I see are hardly shy to show off there bodies.


Perhaps you're having a chicken and egg problem. I suggest that women do that because they know that's what it's going to take to get noticed, to get booked, and to be successful. This is especially true of stage magicians, where we have a century long culture of women parading around in bathing suits and heels, smiling and dancing for the men. So really, it's just a reflection of the problem. Not that there is anything "wrong" with a woman showing off her body to a certain degree, but it shouldn't be "necessary." Let's just all be thankful Penn Gillette isn't parading around the stage in a Speedo. Let's be thankful men don't have to be beautiful to be successful. Do you know any fat, ugly, successful female stage magicians?

Quote:
Many of these quotes are simply pointing out an obvious advantage that women have. Men also have plenty of advantages. Saying that it is sexist to say that women can use there boobs as misdirection is like saying it's sexist to say that men have bigger hands that are better for palming, or have louder, more powerful voices.


Um, no. And if you can't see why, I can't help you.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Mb217
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This is an interesting run of thoughts and debate here, an old circular track that will not change, and a race that cannot be won... And seems to do little beyond feed old fires as to why people do what they do and feel the way they feel. But the fire is light, and hopefully shows the way to a better way & condition. If women do not stand up for themselves, then just who exactly is going to do it? I personally believe that women are capable of anything men are capable of, if given the opportunity (I think this way about all people really). And really, deep down men know this, which is why they thwart every step forward. I don't know, I cheer every little & giant step women make. It's what has to be done to change things for the "better"...That's the only way you ever truly get to what's "best" in life...First the good, then the better, then the best. Smile

It's hard to speak for women, and typically men should not but because it's a man's world (at least in their minds and behind their hands in it) mostly where the internal thinking when all else fails is that might makes right, well, it just makes it harder for men to understand or want better to understand these "man" things/ impulses they feel are just how they feel or feel a need to relate, or something like that. Smile

I acutely think of all this back & forth when I'm watching nature shows, when you see how animals (and we are animals) sexually/socially interact. It's not that women don't like the attention, but they only like it when they like it, and usually it's when it's their time to better recognize it as something they have a need/feeling to do. Anyway, it seems they (the animals) have ways to make the males know they are interested. And the males are always interested. Smile But if the female is not, she will let you know that too, in no uncertain terms, but it doesn't stop males from trying. Sounds sorta familiar, right? Smile Interesting that if, let's say, a lion comes across a female with cubs, he may kill the cubs so that the female can sorta re-set her need/desire(?) to interact again. Now you would think, thinking like a human, that a woman would never do such and you're probably right, but there are many relative connections to us as well, just that we are of higher thinking capacity and not simply working off instinct. But at the core, the process is interestingly similar as to making one's way forward. Of course there's a lot more to it, but ain't it always the case? Smile

Our higher thinking is not devoid of instinct. In fact, our instincts for all this is certainly flirted with as well, both men and women. With our supposed "higher thinking," we are able most times to better appropriate/control our behavior, which is connected and orchestrated by the societies we are of. Mix in the possibility of "love" in the equation and you exponentially create even more to think about and consider.

In general, it is perhaps a good thing to better recognize the animal in us, and use our higher minds as we use cages to first recognize that the opposite sex are first & foremost our human equals and partners in this life, and so a strong respect is warranted to ward off the deeper impulses we might feel at times to pursue. Can't say it's always easy, but you always have time to better think about your approach toward any possible better outcome than you might ordinarily get from such interactions. So there's no "trick" to it, but when it's right it certainly can possibly be quite magical for you when it's magical for her as well. Smile
*Check out my latest: Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Not much new under the sun I hear but under the moon, well who knows, that just might be a horse of a different color." -Mb Smile
danaruns
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Animal instinct? Gosh, it almost sounds like it's about sex rather than magic. Of course, sex can be magic if you do it right... Smile
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Dougini
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On Nov 1, 2018, danaruns wrote:
...Of course, sex can be magic if you do it right... Smile


Too true...I feel better now... Smile
equivoque
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Women already make 15 to 20% less then Men. Therefore, on a magician salary…
Tim Snyder
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Quote:
On Oct 7, 2018, danaruns wrote:

Fun fact: At Magic University at the Magic Castle, the students who start Magic 1 are about half women. But there are barely any who finish the courses. Perhaps the men here would like to speculate about how the innate differences between men and women are to blame for this odd and unavoidable outcome.


This is shocking to me! Any program where half the participants are unable to complete the program is a FAILED program. Do you know what if any steps the Castle is taking to rectify this situation? It isn't an "unavoidable outcome" like you state. The magic community as a whole may be unwieldy, but it should not be that difficult to implement changes to a specific program. You start by surveying the dropouts. What made them quit? You involve secret shoppers. Have some female members/magicians join classes incognito to experience the class first hand and to have the opportunity to casually listen to the other female participants' concerns. Once specific issues have been identified, the Castle can and should address them. Instructors need to change their teaching style if it is off putting and / or non-productive. Likewise, a good teacher can set the tone of a classroom -- shutting down inappropriate behavior and facilitating good interaction.

I would think this would be quite EMBARRASSING,not to mention financially troubling if this statistic got some coverage. If women knew that they were wasting their money taking a class where it was "unavoidable" that they would drop out, then the Magic 1 classes would decrease by nearly half (at least according to you). Knowing how important this issue is to you,and should be to all of us, I again ask, what is the Castle doing to change this?
Mb217
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It would be nice to see someone like danaruns teach the course (think she is from there?). She knows the issues, knows her magic, and better than debating with men about old races and circular tracks, how's about trying to make changes for the better where she could also inspire by example and help show the way, and change such numbers.

Loads of women admirably now stepping to the plate in this political year to try and make real difference and pull progress better forward despite the old obstacles and challenges. Just sayin'.
*Check out my latest: Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

"Not much new under the sun I hear but under the moon, well who knows, that just might be a horse of a different color." -Mb Smile
Jacene
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I very rarely come here on the café, but stopped by quick tonight.
This thread caught my attention. I will admit, I never read EVERYTHING! But, I did skim through and found some thoughts very interesting!
I thought I would add my 2 cents and answer the initial question, since I would fall into the category of most of what has been talked about!
Here’s the thing…. My dad is a magician, I grew up with magic. As a kid, I thought I would love to follow in his footsteps. I went to several magic meetings and performed a little bit. BUT, like the other girls in the statistics above – I decided it wasn’t for me.
Why?
Because I was a young girl at a meeting with a bunch of ‘old men’. (okay, maybe they weren’t ALL ‘old men’, but regardless of age, they were men. And most WERE old! LOL)
Anyway…I had nothing in common with them. I felt strange, being a little girl at these meetings with NO OTHER WOMEN! It was weird! So, I stopped going!
How’d I get back in?
I grew up! I quit caring about guys or girls – I just did my thing! I got to an age when being around a bunch of guys didn't bother me anymore. I
It might strange for a man to read this. Something so minor as, “why would a girl care if she’s the only girl there?” You wouldn’t get it unless you were THE ONLY LITTLE GIRL THERE!
What 10 year old girl would like to hang out in a room with a bunch of men between the ages of 30-75? (give or take). Not me, that was for sure!
Anyway, I don’t want anyone to take this post the wrong way, but I wanted to share my view.
I know what's it's like to be that girl who feels out of place!
Had there even been ONE other girl there - I would have felt better about being there! Smile
Jacene Dickson
2016 AFV Winner "Befuddled Baboon"
www.mindmystique.ca
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