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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The Linking Ring has been running a series for the past several months about women in magic. Some of these are historical figures, others figures of the present. This, in itself, shows a desire at least from the editors who have overseen the project to give magicians a different view of who is who in magic.
The IBM, SAM and the Magic Circle of London have all eliminated any kind of anti-feminine statements from any of their documents. Female performers have been presidents of both IBM and SAM. The Magic Circle has only been allowing female members for a couple of decades, so it will probably take longer for them; however, some of their officers are female, so it's working. Any performer, regardless of race, color, creed or "gender,"* can succeed in magic. It requires drive, practice and thought. It requires a good act. It requires dedication. It requires coaching, preferrably from someone who has actually earned her/his living from magic. If you feel that you have been turned down for a job because of any accident of birth, but you haven't put in the time to develop these necessary skills, then you really have no complaint at all. No customer or booking agent is required to take you on unless they feel that you can fulfil their requirements. *gender is a linguistic term that has been hijacked by people who want to stir up trouble. It applies to whether a noun is masculine, feminine or neuter. If it had anything to do with the actual sex of a person or object, then das Weib, which is German for the woman, would not be neuter.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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HollyMental Elite user OR 423 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-31 12:03, Bill Palmer wrote: Once again, here we have a man telling a woman about what an illusion discrimination against women is. In my experience, that one idiot DOES represent the majority of males. Then you go on to post the following: Quote:
On 2008-05-31 12:44, Bill Palmer wrote: Why are these changes being made, Bill? Huh? Because there IS discrimination. It may be diminishing slowly on a legal basis but it’s still very much alive in the attitudes of MANY male magicians. Right here at the Café, there are entire threads dedicated to discussing how to use magic or mentalism to take advantage of a woman; to pick a woman up or get her into bed or some other nonsense. It’s the predominant ATTITUDE, Bill. YOU ought to be ashamed. The above poster made the statement he made but your problem is with me? YOU ought to be ashamed that you remain quiet and passive when such statements are made but are so willing to speak out against a woman who doesn’t appreciate that type of discriminatory attitude. Quote:
On 2008-05-31 12:44, Bill Palmer wrote: Yes a person can overcome obstacles. But there’s a difference between obstacles placed there by happenstance and obstacles deliberately placed in someone’s path because they are discriminating against you for whatever nonsense. Maybe someday you’ll desire to be part of something and the predominant organizations in the field will tell you that you can’t be a member or that you shouldn’t be doing that or that you’re not smart enough to do it - just because of your gender - or perhaps your color, or some other nonsense. I’m not an international star or anything but I’ve experienced a level of success in life that a lot of people would like to have. I’ve done just about everything I ever wanted to do in life. I haven’t experienced the level of success in everything that I would like to but there’s still time. I’m not done yet. But any failures on my part most certainly were NOT the result of laziness or lack of dedication and quite frankly I’m sick of people like YOU automatically assuming someone is lazy just because they aren’t as successful as they’d like to be. Some of us never stop aspiring to more and never stop pushing ourselves to improve. A discriminatory attitude against women is still prevalent among males on this planet. You can ignore it if you want. You have that luxury. I do not. Holly
The devil can advocate for himself.
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HollyMental Elite user OR 423 Posts |
I wanted to clarify some of my comments above.
I never called MagicWatcher an idiot. Bill Palmer did. I said his comments were boneheaded and sadly represented the majority of male opinions within the brotherhood. My responding comment to Bill about “that one idiot” was riding off Bill’s comment in which he referred to him as an idiot. I do not think MagicWatcher is an idiot. I think he made a very silly and misinformed statement. After my initial response to MagicWatcher, he made the following comment: Quote:
On 2008-03-12 03:39, magicwatcher2005 wrote: Obviously, MagicWatcher is very young. But I do want to point out that his attitude is the attitude of a young person TODAY - right here in the modern age. This is a reflection of the persistent attitude that women are somehow less than men. It’s not from the 1800s as it might sound. It’s here TODAY. The discriminatory attitude of the magic fraternity is reflected in the very name of the fraternity. The Brotherhood. And yes, I find that hurtful. It has always carried with it an air or “you’re not welcome” with it. It’s also hurtful to read the threads here at the Café that demean women. Yes, things are much better than they used to be. But misogynistic attitudes are far from vanished from the fraternity. It’s hurtful when people like Bill brush off misogyny like it’s not a big deal; like I’m just some silly girl making a big deal out of nothing. His attitude is precisely the attitude which enables people like MagicWatcher to think the way they do. People like MagicWatcher seldom have to worry about any backlash from other men who would defend women. In most cases, they take the stance Bill does; that women are making a big deal out of nothing. I just wanted to clarify my thoughts regarding this matter and now I’m done with it. Holly
The devil can advocate for himself.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Holly:
The fact is that since such discriminatory statements have been eliminated, it means that officially discrimination in the organizations is a thing of the past. It's not there any more. Finished. Gone. Done with. I want you to point out any specific instance of misogyny in ANY piece of literature published by the IBM, the SAM or the Magic Circle since the official changes took place, that are not related to personality conflicts that are based on other problems. You can't do it. If I make a statement about the ability of any magician, male, or otherwise, I guarantee you it's based on that person's actual skills and not on anything else. Give me one instance where you haven't gotten a job or where you have been mistreated due to some kind of misogyny practiced by any of the groups I have mentioned.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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HollyMental Elite user OR 423 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-31 20:22, Bill Palmer wrote: Why were they there to begin with Bill? Because of the ATTITUDES of the men in magic. All those attitudes didn’t just change because some organizations changed some wording in their official documents. Quote:
On 2008-05-31 20:22, Bill Palmer wrote: Again, just because they changed some literature doesn’t erase the attitudes that existed prior to the changes. Again, I’m referring to the ATTITUDES of men. Your attempts to shift the focus onto official documents is just a straw man. Quote:
On 2008-05-31 20:22, Bill Palmer wrote: Good for you. Now when’s the last time you spoke up for women when men were standing around running us down like dogs? Or did you just stand there quietly? Or did you passively agree with them? You have nothing to say when someone like Rocco Silano talks about what “women were made for.” You think this attitude doesn’t hurt anyone when someone of his level says something so stupid and misogynistic? He compared women to the animals in his show. Anyone who thinks misogynistic attitudes don’t hurt women is just naïve. Quote:
On 2008-05-31 20:22, Bill Palmer wrote: Again, here you go shifting the focus. Go back and read my initial post. It’s very clear I was referring to the ATTITUDES of men. YOU are the one who brought up all these organizations. The only one I mentioned was the Brotherhood. The name of an organization is representative of that organization. And the name clearly represents the exclusion of women. All this talk about those organizations as a whole is just obfuscation on your part. You think you can shift the focus away from the attitudes of individual members. You figure that way I’ll have to indict the whole organization. No Bill I’m just talking about guys like you; the kind of guy who says nothing when someone says something like what MagicWatcher said and then insinuates I should be shamed for not liking it. Well, Sorry to disappoint you Bill but I’m not ashamed of what I said. It is a true and accurate assessment of the majority of male ATTITUDES as I have experienced them. I have met some wonderful and supportive men in magic but I can say with all certainty that they have been few and far between compared to the number who have been demeaning and belittling toward women. If you have something to say about the ATTITUDES of male magicians in general toward women, say it. But rattling on and on about technicalities in the official documents of a bunch of organizations is just evading the real issue. Holly
The devil can advocate for himself.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Holly:
I can honestly say that I have not been in any discussions about the abilities of female magicians in which their abilities as a group were impugned or otherwise slighted in which I did not stand up for them. It has been so long since I even heard such a discussion that your comment is totally without merit. I don't associate with bigots, male or female. This would, unfortunately, include you, because you have prejudged my intention and attitude without actually understanding it. Since the Magic Circle decided to admit female members, there have been a couple of female members who have complained about such a bias. However, knowing these particular members and their way of dealing with people, I can assure you that any negative statements about them were not based on their skill as performers, but on the fact that they were simply difficult people to deal with. I have been in the position of hiring performers on many occasions. If I have two performers to consider for one slot, one male and the other female, I hire the one that I consider to be a better performer. For certain things, this performer would be Trixie Bond or Cherie Kay. Why? Because for the shows that I don't take, if they are close-up or childrens shows, Trixie will be better than just about anyone else I know at filling the requirements. For hypnosis, it will be Cherie Kay. For another specific type of show, I send John Star. All of these are based on their abilities to entertain, their reliability, and THE WAY THEY GET ALONG WITH PEOPLE. If you are offended by the fact that the International BROTHERHOOD of Magicians has not changed its name to the International SIBLINGHOOD of Magicians, maybe you should check your definitions. While the basic definition of the word does imply maleness, when it comes to trades, professions, etc., such as the IBM, the meaning is non gender-specific.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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HollyMental Elite user OR 423 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-01 13:13, Bill Palmer wrote: Now I’m a bigot? Because I have an opinion you don’t agree with? I stated my opinion based on my own personal experience. First you wanted to shame me. Now you want to throw me in with all bigots. I didn’t prejudge your intention. I understand you perfectly based on your words here in this thread. You are a malicious and desperate person who will make any disgusting allegation to make me look bad or feel bad just because you don’t like my opinion. Holly
The devil can advocate for himself.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
No, Holly. You do a fine job of that all by yourself.
You certainly chose your login name well.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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HollyMental Elite user OR 423 Posts |
Bill, I never spoke to you in my life before you came into this thread. In the very FIRST post you ever directed to me, you called one member an idiot and told me I should be ashamed. That’s your opening post to the very FIRST dialogue we ever had. When you approach someone so belligerently, you’re not going to get a very positive response.
No one could have misunderstood your intention. Clearly it was to berate me. When you didn’t get a positive response - as you no doubt expected - you decided to childishly and irresponsibly throw around the word bigot. Now this: Quote:
On 2008-06-01 14:05, Bill Palmer wrote: I suppose in your world that passes as clever. This latest barb from you just further demonstrates that I’m right in thinking you’re a mean spirited and vindictive person. Holly
The devil can advocate for himself.
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Poveglia Loyal user Orlando, FL 240 Posts |
Not to sound sexist or anything, but I for one enjoy watching female magicians more than males. I find it extremely sexy. Like I said, please don't take this the wrong way because I am not trying to sound like a masochistic pig or anything, but it is true.
Take for example the show T.H.E.M. that Magic X put on. The guys would do tricks and in my head I'd be like "Seen that.....done that....pretty cool..etc" then Lisa would hop on the TV and do something remotely simplistic like UFO hover card and it had my full attention lol. At least that's the way it is for me, so I'm assuming a lot of males who watch magic would feel the same way. Plus the attire that female magicians wear is motivation enough to watch them. Like I said, please don't take this the wrong way like I am objectifying women or making them out to seem like eye candy, just stating that I find female magicians to be captivating and feel they are a great asset to the art. |
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Tyler Regular user St. Louis 169 Posts |
I'm with you Povelglia. I also think because there are fewer female magicians, they gain everyone's attention quicker. It's the unique factor that I think is the key here. (Also, the misdirection factor that I as a male can't help) I can be burning her hands waiting for the double lift (no pun intended) and will almost always get "misdirected" somehow. Always enjoy a good magic performance but like you my attention is held longer for a female performer.
Mike |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
Holly lets see your avatar I hate talking to rabbit ears
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HollyMental Elite user OR 423 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-02 15:32, vinsmagic wrote: Clearly this is an antagonistic and provocative post. If you hate talking to a member with a default avatar - (tellingly I’m the only one you’ve ever expressed any problem with regarding this issue) - then I suggest you simply don’t. No one is forcing you to talk to anyone with a default avatar. Problem solved. Glad I could be of help. Holly
The devil can advocate for himself.
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Dr. Delusion Special user Eugene, Oregon. 733 Posts |
Maybe it's like a lot of you have said already. So far there's not a lot of desire for girls to become magicians. I have a list of 5 young ladies I rotate through for my shows. On average I have 2 of them assisting me at a show. They all started helping while in High School, and all of them are now in collage and most have part time jobs. I'm always asking them if they would like to perform a trick or 2 during the show. They all have told me about the same thing. They love being part of the show and enjoy magic, but they have no desire to perform. I would imagine things would change a lot if there was a female magician out there that was on T.V. a lot and became a role model, sort of like the way it was for girls soccer when Mia Hamm came along. I know that there's a lot of female magicians out there now, and almost any one of them could easily become that role model.
Bob. |
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Magic Spank Veteran user Las Vegas 320 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-03-13 15:53, jaynet wrote: Yes there are many. Way too many. For me, women doing magic just doesn't click. Kind of like a male wet nurse. http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/misc......men.html Sure they can do it, but it's weird. |
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mark2004 Loyal user UK 215 Posts |
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On 2008-06-22 03:21, Magic Spank wrote: I guess none of the female magicians here have bothered responding to the post from "Magic Spank" because it could be trolling (ie. posting offensive messages on discussion forums for the sole purpose of getting other people riled). But moronic prejudice like that shouldn't be allowed to pass unchallenged. Watching women perform magic seems extremely natural to me and not at all weird. And when it involves talented performers such as those previously listed it is a great pleasure. Frankly, the weird thing is the way some people in the business seem to have the idea that women can't or shouldn't do magic. |
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todsky Inner circle www.magicstore.ca 2354 Posts |
MagicSpank is probably just being purposely obnoxious to try to get a rise from the women, which is probably the only way he can get a rise. Either that, or he is a neanderthal who has been teleported to our present age. So he is best ignored and left to crawl back into his cave.
Todsky's Magic Shop: over 15,000 tricks, books, DVD s and Card decks. www.magicstore.ca
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ElectricBlue New user 90 Posts |
Yup sounds like it, Maybe he should change his name to magic wank? Sounds far more appropriate.
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QwEen_oV_mAgic New user New Zealand 6 Posts |
I don't knnow about other contries but I am a female magician in NZ and I think 1 of the reasons there are not as many females magicians here might be because magic is views as a bit of a 'geeks' hobby
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
I think it is partially that and the notion of the simple fact that magic and the magician has always been portrayed as a male figure for the longest of times. I myself am a very lucky man. I am married to a beautiful lady who not only enjoys magic but is my magical partner on stage.
Notice I said partner and not assistant. To Kelly and I, there is a HUGE difference. She does way more then assist me. She is an intrical part in everything we do on stage. Without her in the show, the show and routines do not work. She is also a magician and she loves the art of magic as much as I do. I am proud of her and also proud that we both get the chance to teahc other young ladies the art of magic through the SYM program both locally and nationally. It is wonderful to see so many young ladies getting involved and it is a joy to teach them our fine art. Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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