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sherifmayika
New user
93 Posts
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Posted: Nov 7, 2009 3:45am
Lint,
Thanks for bringing these documentations my notice. I will check Genie magazine.
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Stellan
Elite user
Sweden
496 Posts
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Posted: Nov 7, 2009 4:16am
By the way, Sherifmayika, I have two questions for you. The first is if there is a chance to see Indian street magic in Delhi? The second is if you know of any Indian magic words like "hocus pocus"?
"There is no reality, only perception."
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sherifmayika
New user
93 Posts
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Posted: Nov 7, 2009 5:07am
There are a plenty of good street magicians in Delhi. You can also hear some Indian magic words from them, too.
Posted: Nov 7, 2009 7:36am
Lint,
Which are the best Books in your opinion?
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Lawrence O
Inner circle
Paris France
6269 Posts
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Posted: Nov 7, 2009 12:44pm
What about sitting at a table using egg cups for occidental performers? Haven't we the capacity to adapt otherwise than by breaking the knees of physically older but mentally fresher performers like Pete Biro, Bill Palmer and myself (I'm playing in the same age league, if not at the same level)?
In my opinion, the best books appeared under the pen of Pete Biro and Eddie Joseph.
Magic is not a performing art where people don't know how situations are reached, it's the art of showing parallel dimensions that can't be reached
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sherifmayika
New user
93 Posts
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Posted: Nov 7, 2009 10:20pm
As I mentioned before, there are two styles of Indian cups and Balls. Kakalimura and Rajamura. In the first style sitting is easy, and in latter, magician sits in 'padmasana' which is more difficult. In this pose, more deceptive moves are possible.
One of the major attractions of the Indian Cups and Balls is that it is street magic. Have you imagined David Blaine trying western cups and balls? Sure, you would say that it does not match his style. In my opinion, if it is taken to the table the originality is lost. We have Dai Vernon's routine and Tommy Wonder's routine to adapt to the table.
Many said Patter is not interesting because it was in a foreign language. It is wrong. I would say patter is 50 percent beauty of the Routine. I have seen the Japanese, the French, the Chinese and certainly Englishman enjoy this trick. I asked them about the patter, and they said that was brilliant. "We could understand everything what he said." There is a harmony between body language and emotions and patter. Why? Because the performer was adept in what he was doing.
Prahlad Acharya and Shankar Jr. are good magicians, but their IC&B is not up to its standard. Both of them have inspired me alot. They are creative, too.
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lint
Special user
Concord, CA
948 Posts
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Posted: Nov 8, 2009 12:06pm
Hi Sherif,
Thanks for your PM. Unfortunately, I do not study the Indian Cups. Although, I do love the routines and the variation it provides to the c&b world. The list I provided above comes from my research for a cups & balls bibliography. Those were the entries I had that were not listed already in the thread. You can checkout the complete bibliography here:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=287352&forum=115
Regards,
todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
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Keith Mitchell
Special user
761 Posts
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Posted: Nov 8, 2009 1:25pm
I would like to mention something off-topic here.
Just because you are old does not mean you should give up and grow old. We all should continue getting a good physical workout through out our lifetime, so we can continue to be as healthy as possible for as long as we can. My Dad is 89 and still plays tennis everyday; he is the family's inspiration. I am 47, and I do weight lifting, rock climbing, racquetball, speed biking, and in-line speed skating. I am not or ever have been a super sports jock, I am someone who enjoys working out and being healthy.
I do not know if I can sit on the floor and bend my legs all over the place, but I am not going to sit around complaining that I am too old to do things. My tail bone hurts from sitting too long on a hard floor, so I improvise by putting a pillow down on the floor to sit on.
Besides, this topic is about Indian C&Bs, and I guess it is their cultural habit to sit on the floor the way they do. I have no intentions of adapting to other cultural habits, but it is fun to watch and learn new things. I keep thinking that I would like to see them sitting on a bed of nails performing their C&Bs, or how about a flying carpet?
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Nov 8, 2009 8:07pm
One thing for sure -- if you perform the cups and balls while sitting on a bed of nails, you won't let the trick move too slowly!
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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Michael J. Douglas
Grammar Host
WV, USA
1650 Posts
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Posted: Nov 9, 2009 2:10am
Quote:
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On 2009-11-07 22:20, sherifmayika wrote:
Many said Patter is not interesting because it was in a foreign language. It is wrong. I would say patter is 50 percent beauty of the Routine. I have seen the Japanese, the French, the Chinese and certainly Englishman enjoy this trick. I asked them about the patter, and they said that was brilliant. "We could understand everything what he said." There is a harmony between body language and emotions and patter. Why? Because the performer was adept in what he was doing.
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I hope my previous post wasn't misunderstood regarding language. The reason I originally found the Indian C&Bs uninteresting was a combination of my young age, not being able to see what was happening, and not being able to follow the patter because I couldn't understand the language. I found the videos posted here very entertaining, and I can follow along perfectly because I can see what's happening.
Michael J.
“Believe then, if you please, that I can do strange things.” --from Shakespeare’s ‘As You Like It’
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Nov 9, 2009 6:46pm
Two things:
1) David Blaine is NOT a street magician. He is a television magician. He performs magic with people on the street, but his real audience is the television audience. This audience seems to be diminishing and is now primarily a YouTube audience.
2) Many "real" street magicians, i.e. buskers, perform the cups and balls in many different forms and in many different venues. Most Western buskers who perform the cups and balls do so with Western cups and the Vernon routine or a variant thereof.
I'm not saying it would be impossible, but I will say it would be very unlikely that any of the Indian performers I have seen on the various YouTube videos could hold an audience in San Francisco, Boston or any of the common American venues. In London, they might have a chance, but the language barrier would definitely pose a problem. Also, if they performed the "full" long routine, their crowd would begin to disperse, unless they had some way of keeping them from moving along.
In India, there is less of a problem, because it's expected that the audience will be prepared to watch or hear an act performed in one of the Indian languages. Part of the problem in the States would be that audiences that do not understand the language of the artist begin to make comments to one another, and soon the rest of the audience is distracted.
It's a pity, but I believe it is true.
Posted: Nov 9, 2009 8:00pm
By the way, this was not intended at all to be a comment against the abilities of the performers of the long Indian cups and balls routine, but a comment about the general taste of American audiences.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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sherifmayika
New user
93 Posts
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Posted: Nov 9, 2009 11:11pm
Bill Palmer,
Thanks for for your observations.
1. I agree now with you on David Blaine.
2. What I meant is that performing cups and ball without a table is difficult.
The rest of what you said is correct.
I feel sad that some outstanding performers in India did not permit me to capture them on camera because of fear that their trade secrets will be stolen. I am still asking them for permission. If I had a YouTube post on my favorite IC&B performer, this discussion would have been totally different.
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Nov 10, 2009 12:10am
I'm certain that it would have.
By the way, although I don't know of any three cup routines that are performed without a table, there are several of us, Dennis Loomis for example, who perform the chop cup right in the spectator's hand. I, too, have done this. It makes for some very interesting situation comedy.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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sherifmayika
New user
93 Posts
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Posted: Nov 10, 2009 4:00am
Thanks for bringing Dennis Loomis to my notice. When Googled, there a book by this gentleman 'Dennis Loomis Cups & Balls Routine - Dennis Loomis'. Is there any video on Dennis Loomis performing Cups & Balls in spectator's hand?
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Nov 10, 2009 11:47am
The one that he performs in the hand is the micro chop cup routine.
The three cup routine is performed seated at a table.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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Pete Biro
V.I.P.
17755 Posts
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Posted: Nov 10, 2009 11:56am
SPEAKING OF LANGUAGE.... I have done both the Indian cups and the Vernon-style cups speaking a fake double talk. I started fooling around one night doing an "IMPRESSION" of Shankar Jr. the first time I saw him. He was very young and had a vary high voice. So, I said words that meant nothing in a squeaky voice. Phrases like, Shishmama o kooba nee karamba.... It played well. Then another time, took this same idea to the western cups doing a fake Hungarian accent (I am partly Hungarian) with fitting double talk.
STAY TOONED... @ www.petebiro.com
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Stellan
Elite user
Sweden
496 Posts
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Posted: Nov 10, 2009 1:23pm
Peter Rosengren's Cups & Balls in spectator's hands is both elegant and published.
"There is no reality, only perception."
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sherifmayika
New user
93 Posts
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Posted: Nov 12, 2009 10:26am
Today I watched Steve Darci performing Indian cups and balls in his DVD 'Steve Dacri - No Fillers, vol 2'. He performed it on table.
"This is Charlie Miller's routine," he says. "Charlie Miller, Dai Vernon and I spent days together for creating a routine."
I am really impressed by some of the simple and deceptive loading methods used by this gentleman, which really justifies with the traditional one.
Charlie Miller's 'grass mat' is a wonderful addition to the trick from time immemorial.
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Nov 12, 2009 6:46pm
Steve Dacri does some very nice work on that series.
In his articles on the Indian cups that appeared in Genii Magazine, Charlie Miller said that many of the Indian magicians made their own cups from elephant bells. He described the process in a fair amount of detail. I made several sets of these in different sizes.
Is Charlie's information correct?
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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sherifmayika
New user
93 Posts
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Posted: Nov 12, 2009 11:14pm
In old times, Indian magicians used coconut shells as cups. Coconut shell craft exists here for centuries or more. Later, some used wooden shells. Certainly there was some and is a few magicians who use elephant bells. Now, the cups seen mostly are wooden-dealer cups and steel or brass cups which are used for other purposes.
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lint
Special user
Concord, CA
948 Posts
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Posted: Nov 12, 2009 11:34pm
I enjoyed Dacri's routine as well in that video. Someone get that guy a pair of nail clippers, though. Blech!
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
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sherifmayika
New user
93 Posts
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Posted: Nov 13, 2009 5:52am
Here is listed Charlie Miller performing Indian cups
http://www.magicproshop.com/greater-magic-volume-charlie-miller-and-johnny-thompson-dvd-p-6577.html
Has anybody see this video? Greater Magic Volume 29 - Charlie Miller and Johnny Thompson - DVD
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Tilman
Regular user
Germany/Netherlands
118 Posts
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Posted: Nov 13, 2009 8:27am
Sherifmayika, this is not so much a recording of a performance, rather Charlie Miller being interviewed by Thompson - and demonstrating certain sequences and moves. As others have mentioned, it would be a pity if Charlie Miller was remembered on the basis of this footage. These recordings were made late in his life...
As for the Indian Cups and Balls, as far as I remember, he just imparts very basic knowledge (such as that you use the classic palm, the way balls are loaded under cups from the palm, how you can pretend that a ball penetrates the cup by 'pressing it' through the top of the cup while really palming it - nothing more as far as I can remember). He does not say anything about the way performers of Indian Cups and Balls are seated and how they use their seated position to conceal balls.
If you want to get a sense of Charlie Miller as a person, these are valuable recordings, but as a source of knowledge on the Indian Cups and Balls, this DVD certainly won't tell you anything new.
(BTW, I have only seen the footage pertaining to the cups and balls - not part II and III on Egg Bag and Cards.)
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sherifmayika
New user
93 Posts
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Posted: Nov 13, 2009 9:56am
Tilman,
Thanks for the review.
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Pete Biro
V.I.P.
17755 Posts
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Posted: Nov 13, 2009 12:54pm
And, to my knowledge, the little cups sold with Charlie Miller's name on them were actually small metal end caps used on large drapery rods. They are really too small to do much with.
STAY TOONED... @ www.petebiro.com
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Nov 13, 2009 3:37pm
They were definitely not any kind of "Indian" cup.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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sherifmayika
New user
93 Posts
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Posted: Nov 13, 2009 7:37pm
I will ask Indian magic historian and India's biggest magic collector, Nk sekar, for a clarity on cups. I have never seen anybody using elephant bells as cups, but I have heard once.
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Pete Biro
V.I.P.
17755 Posts
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Posted: Nov 13, 2009 11:52pm
Offering Bowls are often used. I have a lovely, very old set in heavy brass and use an antique opium pipe for a wand.
STAY TOONED... @ www.petebiro.com
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Nov 14, 2009 12:28am
I tried to work out a routine that used a bong, but I kept getting confused.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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dcjames
Special user
510 Posts
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Posted: Nov 14, 2009 6:28am
Quote:
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On 2009-11-14 00:28, Bill Palmer wrote:
I tried to work out a routine that used a bong, but I kept getting confused.
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Dang it, Bill - I just about choked on my coffee...
Thanks for starting my day with a laugh!
“Magic is very easy to do - poorly.”
Tommy Wonder
The Books of Wonder
Volume 2
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Bo J
New user
8 Posts
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Posted: Nov 14, 2009 2:06pm
I believe that this routine is one of the better and very direct:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xejx3_indianstreetmagic
It seems that the T-palm is used instead of the C-palm. It seems much easier to use the T-palm.
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