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cjl467
New user
Los Angeles
65 Posts
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Posted: Feb 5, 2009 2:41am
Wow. Lapping must be old. But I need something to date it. I've heard of course that Slydini helped spread lapping in the magic community, but can anyone dig up an earlier source? I really need an actual source.
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
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23786 Posts
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Posted: Feb 9, 2009 4:49pm
The earliest published reference I have on lapping as a technique was Slydini's "The Art of Using the Lap as a Servante," which was originally published as a single release in the Stars of Magic Series in 1954.
Obviously, people who have performed seated have used the lap for prop disposition for much longer than that, but Slydini basically refined it. He was the one who figured out how to get things into the lap without arousing suspicion, and how to get them out of the lap without anyone noticing it.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: Feb 12, 2009 6:24pm
Have a look at the penetration trick in Scot's Discoverie of Witchcraft using a bowl.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Fred Johnson
Regular user
110 Posts
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Posted: Feb 12, 2009 9:49pm
Traditional tricks like the napkin covered salt shaker thru table and others pre-date Slydini in terms of ditching stuff in your lap, but the techniques Slydini employed - like those from Stars of Magic - made Slydini's reputation and brought into play an era of new methods and tricks including modern classics like Coins Thru Table.
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: Feb 12, 2009 10:14pm
Discoverie dates from the 1500's - way before Slydini and Vernon.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jonathan Smith
Regular user
125 Posts
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Posted: Feb 14, 2009 3:52am
I'll have to look that up. Do you do any material from Discoverie?
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2009 3:23pm
Ah, yes, the famous "groat and bason" trick.
I don't think what we see in Scot or Hocus Pocus, Jr. has anything near the refinement or quality of the work Slydini did with lapping as a real technique.
Quote:
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On 2009-02-14 03:52, Jonathan Smith wrote:
I'll have to look that up. Do you do any material from Discoverie?
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If you do a cut and restored rope, or a version of Grandmother's necklace, you are, essentially, performing material from Discoverie.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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Spellbinder
Inner circle
The Holy City of East Orange, NJ
6439 Posts
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Posted: Nov 11, 2009 8:14pm
I think a more interesting question, and one which possibly has no answer, is when "stand up magicians" became "sit down magicians" so that lapping became possible as a technique. Did Slydini popularize "sit down magic" first, or simply take advantage of a new style that was making the rounds of smaller venues like night clubs and bar rooms?
Professor Spellbinder
Professor Emeritus at the Turkey Buzzard Academy of Magik, Witchcraft and Wizardry
http://www.magicnook.com
Publisher of The Wizards' Journals
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Nov 14, 2009 2:19am
Magicians who worked at dinner tables often sat. That's why some of the material in Scot as well as Hocus Pocus Junior refers to working at a table in a pub.
Magicians began to work standing up when they were able to adapt the workman's apron and/or the poacher's pouch to use as a magical tool.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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Rennie
Inner circle
Manteca, California
1853 Posts
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Posted: Nov 14, 2009 12:52pm
As I recall, and I may be wrong, Slydini used a move called the "Imp Pass" to retrieve the lapped items.
Bill, is this correct ??
Rennie
The effect is the important thing, how you achieve it is not.......
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Jan 16, 2010 10:24pm
Yes. That's correct.
I've seen a lot of people who telegraphed their lapping ... from the moment they sat down at the table. They would do the thumb-little finger gauge to position their chair. That fairly well tips off what is going to happen.
Close-up at a table is really not a practical way to perform any more. If you are a restaurant magician, every time you sit down at a table, you are taking up a paying space. If you are performing at the dinner table, the chances are that you are probably not a worker, but a guest.
Slydini's table magic, beatiful as it was, always seemed contrived to me. You have a man sitting at the front of the room, with a table that is draped to the floor.
This is not intended to be a criticism of Slydini, but simply a reflection on the artificiality of that type of performing.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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SonnySam
New user
4 Posts
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Posted: Feb 18, 2010 8:28pm
I think if you ask Martin Lewis he will tell you of a magician he worked with at Eartquake McGoon's in San Framcisco who produced a dove at the close-up table every show and then vanished it the same way.
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: May 14, 2011 8:36pm
I think if you performed a dove production in a restaurant in Texas, the restaurant could be busted for health violations. Doves are far more likely to carry a disease than, say, a dog or a cat.
The magician you are referring to was probably Johnny Ace Palmer.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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joe yang
Loyal user
Florida
296 Posts
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Posted: May 28, 2011 3:36pm
Those of us who don't have the historical perspective of Bill or Jonathan don't understand a lot of pre-Houdin sleight of hand isn't documented. We can reconstruct it from performance documentation. It seems likely that a "poisonous feast" taken at a table in a pub might have involved some lapping.
My own exploration of Indian and Asian street theater is evolving into some seated, cross legged and kneeling performances which present some interesting opportunities for lapping. For that matter, sleeving into a kimono is a hoot.
Not having Bill or Jonathan's expertise, my work is not authentic. It is interpretive, presenting traditional routines, but taking full advantage of modern methods. The traditional, Asian stuff people have shown me over the years doesn't hold up to modern magic. There isn't much reason to assume older Western illusions where much stronger. Lapping has probably been around forever in some form. Card cheats and quacks couldn't really be expected to publish their methods.
aka Mike Booth
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Jun 4, 2011 6:48pm
The work of the Indian street performers, especially concerning working with the bag, the pants, and even the assistant's costume (if there is an assistant) is really analagous to lapping.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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