Maybe I was mis-reading this post, but the reason I responded the way I did was because it sounded like aitchy was equating miracles as merely magic tricks, and that Christians believe that they were magic tricks.

"Christians believe in all sorts of magic already(turning women into salt/water to wine/transfiguration/seas parting- etc)"

If I did mis-read your post aitchy I do apologize. Perhaps if you may, you could explain more of what you are saying if I am wrong. Thanks

Gospel Dan,

While hopefully most Christians understand the difference between God's miracles and "magic", historically many people equated many of the things spoken of with magic and magical practices, and in particular the sacraments. In the Middle Ages some would actually try to steal the Eucharistic Bread to enable them to ward off evil spirits. While most, since literacy increased in the last 200 years, no longer have those superstitions, undoubtedly there are probably still some that do.

As a pastor, I can never assume where a person's faith is and their particular beliefs. That is why when someone expresses interest in joining the church I sit down with them a number of times for discussion and instruction.

Peace,

Mike

My point I guess is that the supernatural events of the bible etc (whatever you want to label them as) can be hard to believe and don't have much or any evidence unless you evoke circular logic. Therefore, if you get too hung up on these aspects you can become the sort of person who wont take their kids to have fun at a magic show because its "witchcraft" - & to me that's missing the good parts of religion and wallowing in the negative.

If we follow the example of Jesus - by trying to be kind, give to the poor, embrace the lowly, care and show love for others - then I think that's good enough. I don't have to (or do) believe that he could walk on water to find hope and beauty in the fact that he has inspired the world to be better to one another.

RevMike, I agree with what you have said.

Thanks aitchy for coming back to answer my question.

I guess I'm old fashioned,;) because I still believe that being a christian is about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And, believing that He died on the cross for our sins so that we may have fellowship again with the Father which was originally broken when Adam and Eve first sinned in the garden of Eden.

As Keith Green once said, "Going to Church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to MacDonalds makes you a hamburger", saying a prayer doesn't make you a Christian people in every religion pray....even praying to Jesus doesn't make you a Christian...a really good definition of a Christian is someone who is "Bananas" for Jesus. Someone who loves the Lord with ALL their strength, ALL their Mind, and ALL their heart...and don't forget the second half...and they love EVERYONE else as much as they love themselves".

I'm not saying you are not a christian aitchy, but I do hope that the Spirit of God will guide you.

Blessings.

Maybe I'm not a exactly Christian in some sense's but I'm a follower of Jesus's teachings and that is/should be the most important part I believe.

For instance, as it was mentioned I don't for a second think there was an Adam and Eve - we now know exactly how we came to be over hundreds of millions of years. But that doesn't effect my views on Jesus or the gentle guiding hand of a higher power behind it all.

ill leave this for now as its getting way off topic,
warm regards
A
:)

Thanks for being honest aitchy. As Gene states not all Christians come to Scripture in the same way. As long as they find Jesus and have the relationship or working on the relationship that Jesus wants with them. There are some fundamental truths that Christians should adhere to, even if there are different denominations. How we get there is a personal journey between the individual and God. I hope you will continue to seek after Jesus and live by His examples.
:)

Hi aitchy,

Not to start another debate, but as a medical scientist I wanted to let you know that there is not one self-respecting scientist in the world who would claim to know "exactly" how we came to be. This question is out of the range of science because it is untestable. Instead, it falls into the realms of philosophy and religion to answer the question.

Cheers,
Mindsleuth

You're right Mindsleuth!! I'm curious, what's your area of expertise in the medical field?

BTW, aitchy--

To be a follower of Christ, it is important to accept a literal Adam and Eve and understand that because our "great, great, etc. grandparents" were sinners, the sin nature was passed down to us. The fact that we're sinners is the reason Jesus Christ came into this world in the first place. He came to save us--to die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins. Being a follower of Christ (a Christian), according to Jesus is what He called being "born again" in John 3 and putting one's trust in Him and accepting God's forgiveness for sin based upon Christ's sacrificial death.

So, to be a Christian is to accept the teachings of Christ (all of them). And, by the way, He accepted the Old Testament Scriptures as literal, as well.

Hi guys, here are my thoughts based on Chapter 8 of Acts.

In Acts we read of "Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people in Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed: 'This man is the devine power known as the Great Power.' They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic." [Acts 8:9-11]

Note that this Simon used magic to gather followers get power for himself.

When apostles arrive the people see the true power. Simon himself is attracted but when he sees the gift of Holy Spirit "he offered [the apostles] money and said 'Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit'" [Acts 8:18-19]

Thwe apostles refuse and Simon is firmly rebuked. He just doesn't get it. He doesn't understand that God's power is not something than a person can use for their own profit. Modern day apostles don't sell eBooks online about how to use the Holy Spirit for fun and profit!

Magic, mentalism, mental-magic, psychological entertainment - whatever your preferred label is entertainment. Not about gaining followers or power. What was the source of Simon's power? How did he impress the people of Samaria? Did he:

(A) trick them with sleight of hand, or,
(B) did some evil source power his magic?

If it is (A) then Simon is wrong because he was defrauding people for his own gain. If it is (B) then Simon is wrong for using 'black magic'.

In your own Gospel magic - I assume you are not doing genuine magic - you are not powered by an evil demon. Rather you are using sleight or mind (or in mentalism, sleight of mind). Are you genuinely deceiving the audience (no, they know its an illusion) are you doing it to gain followers for you or Jesus (I assume it's Jesus).

Hi mralincoln,

My graduate degree is in molecular and biomedical pharmacology and my undergraduate degree is in biology/biotechnology. I also have a masters degree in English. Currently, I am a healthcare forecaster (I predict the future) and senior clinical writer for a nonprofit agency that researches medical technologies.

-Mindsleuth

Hello all,

I don't want to appear contrary, but as someone intrigued that in 2010 we can still really be having these conversations; how would a 'gospel magician' be differentiated from a 'magician'?

Why should this year be any different than the last 2,000? The gospel has always clashed with the world. Any attempt to blur the lines or meld the two are contrary to the heart of the gospel: this world and all its mindsets and ways of operating are at odds with the Kingdom of God. Christians are _in_ the world but not _of_ the world. And in those two very small words lie centuries of controversy.

"Gospel" magic is loosely defined as doing magic with a gospel message attached in one way or another. Some perform in churches, some on the streets, some in Children's Church or crusades. Personally, I do not do gospel magic in any of those ways.

That being said, as a Christian, the gospel lives within me, and I do everything - including my magic - with that in mind. Part of that is being mindful that my presentations do not cross certain lines, with said lines set between me and God alone. Another part is being mindful of how others will view my performances.

Because of the polluting cross-pollinization of the "sinner" world and the "church" world and the resulting mutant offspring, you have people who call themselves "christian" but don't give a fig for consideration of God or others, you have people who are superstitiously paranoid of anything they can not clearly and absolutely define as "of God", and thousands of variants in between. Plus you have the people wholly of world who take great delight in throwing anything they can at anyone who dares to love Jesus.

With all of that, I have no problem understanding why these conversations are still happening. And thank God they do! The gospel needs to be kept very clear of the world, and in our little corner of life we can come here to keep the windows cleaned.

Cheers!
Ed

Ed,

Thank you very much for your kind answer. I wasn't looking for a theological argument for or against Christianity, although that is what a question surrounding this topic usually raises, I was just trying to genuinely find the root cause of the angst suffered by many Christian magicians that seem unclear as to the boundaries.

Are there certain fundamentalist followers that believe that all magic is evil? Are Christians being given differing/confusing advice by their churches etc?

Hopefully, these questions will be seen as non-provacative, and genuinely intentioned, but may help to clear up many of the queries raised in previous posts.

Like many other things: it depends on who you ask and what they believe.

I don't call it gospel magic, my in church performances are simply called, magic with a message and I repeatedly explain that I am doing tricks and illusions to demonstrate a higher idea,i usually finish demonstration of the message the pastor will deliver,