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Stucky

Special user
Still not banned after
839 Posts
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Posted: Jan 15, 2011 5:07am
The only leg work is making some calls and sending some emails (if you have the budget, making some ads to go in the magazines). If you are not willing to work a little hard to sell something you believe in, then maybe you don't deserve to reap the rewards?
Official Thread Killer
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Jack Baines

New user
33 Posts
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Posted: Jan 15, 2011 7:25pm
Quote:
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On 2011-01-15 05:07, Stucky wrote:
The only leg work is making some calls and sending some emails (if you have the budget, making some ads to go in the magazines). If you are not willing to work a little hard to sell something you believe in, then maybe you don't deserve to reap the rewards?
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I think you severely underestimate what large scale distribution entails, and costs.
But then I am neither a distributor or distributee, so I could be wrong.
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Christopher Taylor

V.I.P.
British Columbia Canada
1374 Posts
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Posted: Jan 15, 2011 7:48pm
Stucky: Interesting perspective you have on how magic creators should behave. How many products have you put out there?
Christopher
Christopher Taylor
Member P.E.A.
www.taylorimagineering.com
MAKING MENTALISM MORE IMPOSSIBLE
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Dan Bernier

Inner circle
Canada
2299 Posts
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Posted: Jan 15, 2011 9:03pm
Any artist has some idea now about torrent sites and such, and they should market at their own risk knowing that their work could end up on a torrent site. Most magicians do, and most of them don't complain because the internet has given them an avenue to sell their material straight to the consumer without all the over head costs that would accure otherwise.
Enough complaining has been done about it and here we are still no further ahead. The internet makes it extremely easy for artists to sell their routines and idea's. The internet saves them what would of been thousands of dollars in advertising and marketing. They would of had to pay publishers to publish their material, now they can by pass all that and publish and market themselves. Doesn't take much to do it. That's why every tom, dick and harry is doing it.
Stealing is wrong, but only you can prevent thievery!
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
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Pakar Ilusi

Inner circle
4804 Posts
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Posted: Jan 15, 2011 10:26pm
Best answer here was Jonathan Townsend's...
Don't publish your "secrets" if you don't want them freely downloaded.
If you do publish, you just have to accept that once the idea is out there, you just cannot control it.
Magicians with millions of dollars at their disposal cannot control it, what of the rest of us?
So, don't publish (Book,DVD etc.) if you don't want it given out freely on the Net.
Sad but true this is.

"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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bsears

Inner circle
1009 Posts
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Posted: Jan 16, 2011 2:58pm
I stand by my analogy with itunes. People are more likely to pay for a quality product at a fair price than a padded product at an inflated price, regardless of the product.
Books tend to suit this formula well and are usually a great bargain. 3 disc padded DVD sets full of "ideas," previously published routines, and other magician's material, not so much.
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Stucky

Special user
Still not banned after
839 Posts
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Posted: Jan 16, 2011 3:59pm
Quote:
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On 2011-01-15 19:48, willowtaylor wrote:
Stucky: Interesting perspective you have on how magic creators should behave. How many products have you put out there?
Christopher
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Wouldn't you be surprised if it was quite a few?
Official Thread Killer
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truthteller

Inner circle
2589 Posts
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Posted: Jan 23, 2011 4:58pm
You write that being known by many is better than making ten dollars? Is that true? Always?
I know plenty of people who care not one lick for fame, but are interested in putting food on their table. Lots of people have millions of hits on their YouTube videos yet not a dollar to show for them.
Second, your position belies ignorance of the magic marketplace. Going through distributers often allows one to make more money on an item and keep costs lower through higher distribution, lower production costs. While one can sell products without a distributor, doing so rarely results in being able to lower ones price.
Finally, who are you to suggest that someone has placed too high a value on their work? Is it not their right to decide who gets access to the information and for what investment?
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Mystician111

New user
7 Posts
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Posted: Mar 10, 2011 4:22am
Phew!!! quite a number of posts on this...
I am not saying anything but doing something about it... Hopefully it works... Here is a facebook link to the initiative http://www.facebook.com/ugesh/posts/10150203099733765
Please read my previous status updates also from my profile to get a better idea.
Thanks and regards,
Ugesh Sarcar
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Reuben Dunn

Inner circle
Has a purple ribbon wraped around my
1557 Posts
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Posted: Mar 11, 2011 12:40am
Quote:
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On 2010-04-12 09:25, Kevin Cook wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-04-10 10:00, Richard Osterlind wrote:
I have actually changed the professional lives of many performers working today. And I am proud of that!
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This is the last I have to say on the subject and the last time I will ever partake in this seething hive of sin, the Magic Café.
Good day.
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Hmmm...Welcome back to the hive of Sin Kevin....
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=402882&forum=15&post=6948286
{;-)
Regards
Reuben Dunn
www.reubendunn.com
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Nick Sand

Loyal user
262 Posts
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Posted: Apr 1, 2011 11:51am
Quote:
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On 2011-01-23 16:58, truthteller wrote:
You write that being known by many is better than making ten dollars? Is that true? Always?
I know plenty of people who care not one lick for fame, but are interested in putting food on their table. Lots of people have millions of hits on their YouTube videos yet not a dollar to show for them.
Second, your position belies ignorance of the magic marketplace. Going through distributers often allows one to make more money on an item and keep costs lower through higher distribution, lower production costs. While one can sell products without a distributor, doing so rarely results in being able to lower ones price.
Finally, who are you to suggest that someone has placed too high a value on their work? Is it not their right to decide who gets access to the information and for what investment?
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I agree, at times in the past I have often thought that effects where priced too high. Until I began to go threw the process of releasing an effect, I really had no idea what went into it.
Making something for your own use takes a lot less time and work, than perfecting something for retail sell ......etc. There are so many factors that go into releasing something for the market.
As far as piracy goes, I am of the mind that there people that are going to buy your product and those that aren't. The internet gives those that wont buy an easy way to steal.
A pirate is a pirate and is going to steal. Copy Protection on dvds and games are broke constantly. I am of the mind these sorts of protections are pointless and just cost the companies more money. Until the governments step up to the plate. There is not much that can be done about it. Its not right or fair, but such is life.
The world we live in is even a greater illusion than magic.
http://sandmagicgoods.webs.com/
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Dr. Eamon

Inner circle
1038 Posts
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Posted: Apr 1, 2011 8:01pm
It´s getting a long topic but I still find this wrong...
Presentation is everything!!!
Best wishes from the Netherlands!
(Sorry for my poor English)
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Banester

Special user
663 Posts
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Posted: Apr 12, 2011 3:43pm
Just a thought from several of the posts. If I opened up a library using all of my magic books and gave a away free memberships does that violate the copyright? If it does, then what if I donate them to my local library as I have done with other books when they do a fund raising book drive.
Now if I own the book and decided to create an online library where only one person can view the book at a time does that break the copyright? What about all these libraries that are going digital? (ask Alexander, learnedpig, universities).
btw, I can also watch video's or check them out at the local library.
I would totally agree with Mr. Townsend that if you don't want to see it online don't publish it!
The art of a magician is to create wonder.
If we live with a sense of wonder, our lives
become filled with joy
-Doug Henning-
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truthteller

Inner circle
2589 Posts
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Posted: Apr 12, 2011 10:09pm
As long as you are not making a copy of the book, you can loan it to whomever you like. Same with a DVD. When you put something online, you are in effect making copies which is in violation of copyright law. The ACT of moving it from a DVD to your computer breaks the law, unless licenses and usage laws specifically allow for otherwise.
As to askalexander, I know Bill complies with copyright holders requests to not have their material accessible online. There are restrictions as to what libraries can and cannot do. And if you want to set yourself up as a 501c3 library or become accredited as an academic institution, then you will be afforded the same rules they must follow.
But what troubles me, is why can't I - or anyone - be allowed to dictate what happens to MY work? Should the content provider have no say in how it is used? And, if the attitude you express is allowed to become the norm, do you think in the long run that will be good for you - for magic?
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Tim Ellis

V.I.P.
Melbourne, Australia
1195 Posts
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Posted: Apr 12, 2011 11:09pm
"As far as piracy goes, I am of the mind that there people that are going to buy your product and those that aren't. The internet gives those that wont buy an easy way to steal."
The internet puts the treasures out on the footpath with a sign "FREE - HELP YOURSELF"
Once a magic DVD, or a commercially released movie, is on the internet, people who otherwise may have purchased it in the store will frequently us the justification that "Well, if it's online it must be okay..." even though they know that it more than likely isn't.
I've spoken with otherwise honest people who have invented all kinds of stories to justify why they should take the latest Hollywood blockbuster straight off the net rather than wait until the DVD is released and buy or rent it.
I've seen these same people burning the movies to discs, making duplicate covers and labels on their colour printers and sticking them up on the shelf with their "real" DVDs bragging about how much money they saved. Then they happily swap the discs with friends.
If people are stealing Hollywood movies from the net, and DVD rental stores are going out of business (ALL of our local stores have been replaced by a vending machine) then I'm sorry but the people who previously WOULD have bought your product aren't going to pay a dime if they can get it for free - in the privacy of their own home - and know that they will never be punished for what they consider a "victimless crime".
www.MagicUnlimited.com
www.timellismagic.com
Visit our online shop for instant downloads and ebooks
http://www.australianmagician.com/store
Blog - www.magicunlimited.typepad.com
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Sean Giles

Inner circle
Cambridge/ UK
2005 Posts
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Posted: Apr 13, 2011 6:06pm
Tim, your post sums it up perfectly. If something is available for free, without even leaving the house, then that's s huge temptation for a lot of people. The problem is that there are no recriminations whatsoever and the only thing stopping people is ethics. If there is a movie you want to watch you have a choice to either wait for the DVD release, go to the store, and rent it or you can get it from the internet there and then for free and noone will know but you. We can ostracise people all we want but in the end it's just human nature. Like sticking your arm in a lions mouth and then blaming the lion because he bites you!
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Banester

Special user
663 Posts
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Posted: Apr 15, 2011 9:03pm
I was reading through a couple of my magic books and found a copyright (description) in "Midnight Fantasy" by Wally Reid.
Quote:
| No part of this publication may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopy, recording, or any information storage and retrival system now know or to be invented, without permission in writing from the publisher. |
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Truth, thanks for the information!
The art of a magician is to create wonder.
If we live with a sense of wonder, our lives
become filled with joy
-Doug Henning-
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truthteller

Inner circle
2589 Posts
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Posted: Apr 18, 2011 1:29pm
It has been confirmed that there are specific laws applying to libraries and archives which dictate exactly what they can and cannot lend, store, duplicate, etc.
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Jonathan Townsend

Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25307 Posts
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Posted: Apr 18, 2011 4:58pm
Quote:
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On 2011-04-18 13:29, truthteller wrote:
It has been confirmed that there are specific laws applying to libraries and archives which dictate exactly what they can and cannot lend, store, duplicate, etc.
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And this applies to magic books and videos ... how?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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truthteller

Inner circle
2589 Posts
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Posted: Apr 19, 2011 12:09am
It applies to specific comments/questions in the thread specifically referencing libraries and their permissible practices.
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Banester

Special user
663 Posts
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Posted: Apr 19, 2011 2:31pm
@Jonathan, I asked what would be stopping me from opening up a library where people would have access to some of my books or if I donated my collection to the local library (lol maybe my wife would!) where people could view them, make photocopies of some of the pages or just take notes. Truthteller stated that there is a specific rules :
Quote:
| 501c3 library or become accredited as an academic institution |
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The 501c3 is just a tax classification for a nonprofit library.
According to the Library Copyright Alliance:
Quote:
| 2.1. A library may make copies of published and unpublished works in its collection for purposes of preservation or to migrate content to a new format. 2.2. A work that has been lawfully acquired by a library may be lent to others without further transaction fees to be paid by the library. 2.3. A work that has been lawfully acquired by a library or other educational institution may be made available over a network in support of classroom teaching or distance education in a manner that does not unreasonably prejudice the rights holder. 2.4. Subject to appropriate limitations, a library or educational institution may make copies of a work in support of classroom teaching. 2.5. A library may convert material from one format to another to make it accessible to persons with disabilities. 2.6. In support of preservation, education or research, libraries and educational institutions may make copies of works still in copyright but not currently the subject of commercial exploitation. |
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So yes I could start a library, get a tax number and then file the 501c3. Everyone who then comes in maybe able to view all volumes and if it is for educational purposes I can convert the media to CD or otherwise. I did not check about the DVD portion, but I am just assuming it will state about the same.
Library Copyright Alliance
And no, I am not for people ripping DVD's and putting them online or magic books being displayed over the net(google books. I beleive artist should be compensated for their work. I do have a problem with the guys who are creating a material (DVD/Book) that has the same effects that have been on a thousand other DVD's & books. Is it ok to watch a DVD, perform the exact same routine using the same materials and publish your own?
The art of a magician is to create wonder.
If we live with a sense of wonder, our lives
become filled with joy
-Doug Henning-
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truthteller

Inner circle
2589 Posts
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Posted: Apr 19, 2011 6:52pm
I do not know if the 501c3 is the critical element, only that there are certain hoops to jump through in order to be considered a library and then be subject to those copyright restrictions. As I understand it one element is a non-profit status, but there may be other requirements and perhaps even alternatives to that one. I'm not qualified or informed to the degree to adequately discuss those details. So please, don't think I'm speaking to anything larger or more specific than the notion that libraries are afforded special copyright limitations. I do know that the copyright law specifically address both printed matter and 'phonorecordings" or something to that effect. I would assume video would be governed by those later restrictions (which, I recall being treated the same way as texts - but again, my knowledge in this matter is very superficial.
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bsears

Inner circle
1009 Posts
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Posted: Apr 27, 2011 1:23am
Interesting discussion about Libraries. Could someone please enlighten me on how the Library at the Magic Castle works? I have heard of magicians going to magic libraries both public and private to "do research" when constructing routines. Is that not theft? Are they not benefiting from those authors without paying them a dime? Can one download torrents for "research?"
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Banester

Special user
663 Posts
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Posted: Apr 27, 2011 1:26pm
Bsears I think the issue with that would be the change of media from DVD or book to eletronic data.
The art of a magician is to create wonder.
If we live with a sense of wonder, our lives
become filled with joy
-Doug Henning-
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bsears

Inner circle
1009 Posts
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Posted: Apr 27, 2011 10:40pm
I apologize, I don't understand your response Banester. In regards to my question about using a library for personal gain with no compensation going to the author, media type is irrelevant.
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truthteller

Inner circle
2589 Posts
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Posted: Apr 28, 2011 1:41pm
It is a matter of copyright law. You can come to my house and read any book I have in my library. Anyone can. I can even let you take it home with you. But I cannot make a copy of that work - which is what creating a torrent would do.
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bsears

Inner circle
1009 Posts
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Posted: Apr 29, 2011 1:08pm
Ok. That makes (some) sense.
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truthteller

Inner circle
2589 Posts
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Posted: Apr 29, 2011 5:06pm
It makes complete sense legally. You, however, are discussing some greyer ethical issues. Equally valid, but different.
And , for the record, I agree with the apparent thrust of your argument. I believe we should ALWAYS have permission before using someone else's work. And ideally, that person should be properly compensated (should they desire). And while I think the 'nice' thing to do is buy a book or DVD which contains material you plan to use in a manner in which the creator is compensates, your concern raises an interesting issue : what about books/DVDs that are no longer in print.
So I ask you, not in the spirit of attack but of discussion, given what you seem to be saying, how do you feel about accessing material in out of print sources. Buying them in no way compensates the creator - who may be long dead.
Would you feel it right to perform or learn a trick from an out of print book purchased second hand? If so, then would it matter if you learned a trick from a book (out of print or not) from a library or borrowed from a friend?
While I think, if I an interpreting you correctly, I agree in sprit with your position, it becomes one necessitating discussion once it moves into the world of the practical.
Thoughts?
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bsears

Inner circle
1009 Posts
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Posted: May 2, 2011 1:07pm
These are the grey areas indeed my friend! One has to tread carefully here because it is easy to look hypocritical. If you loan a book to a friend, he flips through it, doesn't care for it, and returns it, no harm done right? But the same person downloads a torrent, doesn't care for it, and deletes it, and he's a thief?
My feeling, in general, is that it is acceptable to VIEW any source material, be it digital or print. Once you begin to perform it or profit from it, however, compensation must be rendered. Of course, if someone has passed away and the book is out of print, compensation isn't really possible.
As an aside, I also have an issue compensating authors/creators for garbage and things which weren't theirs to sell in the first place, but that's another story! Cheers.
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truthteller

Inner circle
2589 Posts
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Posted: May 2, 2011 4:15pm
With loaning hard copies, at least, the creator has been compensated for every copy available, which cannot be said when they are scanned. Further, shouldnt a creator be afforded the right to dictate how many of his products are in existence and available?
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