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maps
Special user
959 Posts
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Posted: Nov 23, 2010 8:03pm
I don't know if this has been asked before but do you prefer the soft or the hard figures.
I like and have been making soft figures for many years and have even added animations to my soft figures because they are very light and packs great and seems more animated without added mechanism.
However,I am fascinated by hard figures and Robert McRay figures is such an inspiration.
I created giant mechanical puppets but recently I am so drawn to hard figures.
So which do you prefer?
the heart is where the magic begins
Visit my website
[www.mascotsandpuppets.com]
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Mr. Pitts
Special user
David Pitts
874 Posts
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Posted: Nov 23, 2010 10:06pm
I can't help myself, I have had a lifelong interest in hard figures. I see many advantages to the soft puppets, but I really love working with my hard figure Henry. There was a time in the 70's and 80's that hard figures were sort of cliche and old fashioned, and soft figures seemd much more modern. Now I think the public likes both, and the hard figures are more novel these days. Everything happens in cycles I guess.
David Pitts
The Astonishing Mr. Pitts
Comedy Magician and Ventriloquist
http://www.mrpitts.com
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Wanlu
Inner circle
Manila, Philippines
2990 Posts
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Posted: Nov 24, 2010 1:27am
I use both but Im more fascinated by hard figures 
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org
Wanlu's Affordable Puppets
http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html
Wanlu and his Puppets
http://wanlu.net
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CaptKirk
Loyal user
263 Posts
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Posted: Nov 25, 2010 10:33am
I prefer the hard body vent figures so much that I placed all my soft body puppets up for adoption. I now have a family of 4 figures - 3 by master craftsman Albert Alfaros and 1 by Kem Poyner! All are SUPERB and so life-like. I think I like all the animations that hard figures have. They just make them seem so REAL to me! IMO:o)
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Dickens & Dave
Inner circle
North Central Florida
1692 Posts
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Posted: Dec 2, 2010 4:28pm
I've always been primarily interested in hard figures.
I enjoy watching other vents who use soft figures, and I've had a few myself, and I liked/like them (most I sold, but I still have a few), but it's the hard figures that really interested me from the start, and the ones I prefer to use.
http://dickensndave.bravehost.com/index.html
"Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I fly away, and be at rest."
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marshalldoll
Special user
536 Posts
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Posted: Dec 2, 2010 5:42pm
I may get slammed for saying this but I still feel that a ventriloquist is pictured in MOST peoples minds using a hard figure. Sure you can do ventriloquism with a soft figure Neale Bacon does a great job with his critters, Jeff Dunham uses Peanut but...those are puppets and not ventriloquist figures. Just my opinion.
Dan
www.ventriloquistcentral.com
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ColinDymond
Special user
Gloucestershire, England
664 Posts
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Posted: Dec 2, 2010 6:23pm
Dan. I know what you mean but when I was growing up in the UK I saw Shari Lewis with Lamb Chop, Keith Harris with Orville and Cuddles and Terry Hall with Lennie the Lion! The only vent I remember who used a hard figure was Ray Alan with Lord Charles.
Colin Dymond
www.aceofdiamonds.co.uk
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Dickens & Dave
Inner circle
North Central Florida
1692 Posts
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Posted: Dec 2, 2010 11:17pm
Well Dan, from what I've seen during my short time here, you're not likely to get slammed - hopefully not anyway.
I can say that since earliest memories of vent and being interested in vent, the classic hard figure has always been a part of that. In fact the only reason I started using some soft figures was because when my daughter was very little, she was afraid of my hard figures. Keeping that in mind, when I started doing some school shows, which were for the younger grade school age, I used soft figures there, to cut down on the possible "fear factor".
One thing I did like about using soft figures over hard, is they definitely are more capable of a lot more animation than any hard figure could do, but I still prefer my hard figures because that's what's stuck in my own personal idea about ventrilquial figures, at least as far as what works best for me.
Will I say they are puppets, and not ventriloquial figures.....I can only speak for myself, and for me, a ventriloquial figure is a classic hard figure, but for others, especially for those who have spent a lot of money on a custom soft figure, or anyone who's primary character is a soft figure, I'm sure they feel differently.
Guess in the end, it's a personal thing, whatever works for each person the best in presenting the illusion is what matters.
http://dickensndave.bravehost.com/index.html
"Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I fly away, and be at rest."
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kidshowvent
Veteran user
362 Posts
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Posted: Dec 3, 2010 7:01am
I started my professional career using hard figures, but gave them up a few decades ago in favor of the soft puppets. I also felt that I could get more movement from them and they were easier to travel with, especially on my dates where I had to fly somewhere. Because I do primarily kidshow vent the hard figures had a tendency to scare the little kids...but in those days most of the figures looked alike...cheeky boy figures with bright red lips! I remember people telling me.."Oh, you have a "Charlie McCarthy" doll!" when I used the hard figures. Most of the early figures all looked primarily alike. Today's figure makers have more of a flair making hard figures unique, to which I am glad. We needed to break that "sameness" mold.
Bottom line, I prefer soft puppets..although I do get a hankering occasionally for a hard puppet.
Also..this listing is very helpful, an very civil and we all respect one another. I checked in to another listing and boy, what a negative, biting atmosphere. Way to go , vents! I'm proud of you all!!
Mark
markwade@kidshowvent.com
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ljlvent
_of_lily_and_lisa.jpg)
New user
iowa
84 Posts
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Posted: Dec 3, 2010 10:02am
I have only every used the soft figures since I perform mainly for children - frankly the hard figures seem daunting to me in that the manipulation is so different. I don't think I could get used to it but I certainly watching them performed in the hands of the pros!!
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maps
Special user
959 Posts
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Posted: Dec 3, 2010 10:23am
I think each kind of puppets/figures have their own unique qualities.I am beginning to like the hard figures because I can sculpt more detailed features not possible with the soft puppets
the heart is where the magic begins
Visit my website
[www.mascotsandpuppets.com]
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Steve at The Dummy Shoppe
Elite user
461 Posts
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Posted: Dec 3, 2010 11:23am
Since nobody slammed Dan, and I am not going to be the first since Dan is a great friend, I believe that there is also the potential for extremely detailed features in Soft Sculpture in the hands of an artist. Check out what JET has done with some of her older people at www.thedummyshoppe.com . I agree wholeheartedly with Mark Wade about children and the fear factor with hard figures. OK, I admit to being "slightly" biased, but I have seen some wonderful expressions put on faces.
Steve
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IanARalph
New user
Central Mass, USA
31 Posts
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Posted: Dec 3, 2010 11:27am
Heh. I have both Hard and soft. My kids are terrified of my Hard puppet. My practicing with it hasn't reassured them much. My boys are 18 & 21 
I prefer the hard puppets, esp now with some very creative designs that people are doing now.
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marshalldoll
Special user
536 Posts
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Posted: Dec 3, 2010 2:58pm
Steve thanks for not slamming me. You know I have always given you and Jet kudo's on your puppets. See I call them puppets!! LOL And folks if you haven't been to their website you must take a look. The characters are wonderful. I guess as I previously said for me the hard figure is the ventriloquists tool but I do appreciate the soft figure in our world. Hey Mark I do agree with you as well this is a great family.
Dan
www.ventriloquistcentral.com
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Servante
Inner circle
1262 Posts
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Posted: Dec 4, 2010 12:06pm
It's been my experience that the folks here in the "I'm a Real Boy" neighborhood are easygoing and eager to help.
I've mostly used hard figures for vent and a mix for puppet shows (I've still got a celastic Punch and Judy set down in the basement somewhere!). My own children never could warm up to Louie, my main hard figure, but, when they were younger, they had some affection for the soft figures.
I never seemed to have that trouble with the hard figures doing shows, unless they got to close to an individual child...and even then, for the most part, they mostly wanted to stick their fingers in the figures' mouths!
Another problem I have...and maybe it's just me...is that the technical aspects of vent SEEM harder for me with a soft figure. Somehow, if I'm not working a lever, I have to be even more on my toes with lip movement, etc.
Could just be because of all the years working hard figures. Dunno. Never actually voiced this to other vents before.
--Philip
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Steve at The Dummy Shoppe
Elite user
461 Posts
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Posted: Dec 4, 2010 1:53pm
Philip:
Could it be that you are just in need of something to do with your hands? Some of the soft figures have come a long way with animations in just a short while. We now have choices which include the traditional moving eyebrows, blinkers, and now we have moving eyes (left to right). Unfortunately, we have not yet mastered blinkers and moving eyes in the same puppet. Because the Vent's hand is in there, the real estate is somewhat limited. However we are working on the two together, and will hopefully be able to do both at the same time.
Steve
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Servante
Inner circle
1262 Posts
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Posted: Dec 4, 2010 2:39pm
Steve...I dunno. Maybe. Or it could be that, spending several decades working a lever with my thumb, it's just all "of a piece," as it were (It also seems a little odd when I have to work some figures' mouths with my index finger, so you could be onto something there).
I also spent several years working a muppet-style "Santa's elf" on television around Christmas time. You know the routine: one hand is the mouth, the other is in the puppet's hand and the puppets second hand either works with fishing line or, in this particular case, is stuffed and posed holding a microphone. Then I would be cramped up in a sort of chimney side Dutch oven puppet stage with an IFB in my ear, a clip mic at my mouth and a monitor in sight. No scratching your nose when you're on air!
I didn't have to worry about lip movement (only fainting!). Maybe my brain is wired to perceive soft puppets as non-vent creatures.
This is, for me at least, a really interesting thread.
-Philip
P.S. Oh...and please imagine another "o" on "to" in line seven of my previous post. I hate it when that happens.
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daffydoug
Eternal Order
Daff could give a rats butt that he has
11226 Posts
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Posted: Dec 8, 2010 7:09pm
Used to love working with my hard figure Daniel, but lately the soft Axtell puppets are gaining more and more favor with me. So much easier to pack, and they have a charm and appeal that hard figures are hard pressed to come by.
Kids who may possibly be scared by the articulated vent figure have a natural affinity with the colorful birds.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
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Dickens & Dave
Inner circle
North Central Florida
1692 Posts
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Posted: Dec 8, 2010 11:27pm
One of the things I've always thought about with soft figures, and I'm sure has contributed to me not wanting to make them a main character, is durability.
As I mentioned, I'm very much into the "classic" thing, and part of that, whether in fictional stories, or real life, the vent has one main figure they're associated with. They may have other figures they use as well, but there is one main one that they're associated with.
I had, actually still have, a latex figure, which got used, but not excessively, it was kept in a case when not in use, but it looks to me like the latex has yellowed. I would use him in a setting with low lighting and some distance from the audience where that might not be as visible, but that's about it.
But also, latex does wear down otherwise, where your fingers are in the mouth, and the same goes for cloth. So I don't see soft figures, latex or cloth as being lifetime figures.
Which is why I went overboard with one. A friend of mine sent me a lion puppet, I fell in love with it, I thought it was a great puppet. I knew this was one I wanted to have around and available forever. So what did I do? I bought a dozen of them. Fortunately, it wasn't an expensive puppet, they used to be pretty commonly available on ebay, some of you may have seen them, as I recall, it was something that was originally sold through Macy's, and he had a denim jacket on.
http://dickensndave.bravehost.com/index.html
"Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I fly away, and be at rest."
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TonyB2009
Inner circle
3230 Posts
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Posted: Dec 11, 2010 7:50pm
I love soft figures, because I find that their faces are more alive than hard ones. While I enjoy watching others with hard puppets, I will continue to perform with soft ones.
Growing up the only Irish ventriloquist of note, Eugene Lambert, used both, but his most famous creation was Judge the dog - a very basic soft puppet. That's what we grew up on.
Check out Tony's new thriller The Gilli Gilli Man at Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Gilli-Tony-Black-Mysteries-ebook/dp/B007GFD0NQ/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1363055541&sr=8-16&keywords=The+Gilli+Gilli+Man
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Steve at The Dummy Shoppe
Elite user
461 Posts
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Posted: Dec 11, 2010 8:08pm
Blueshawk1:
I agree with you on the duribility of latex. We used to have a line of latex puppets when we first started. Latex, by its very nature begins to degrade from the moment it comes out of the mold. There are things that you can do to retard the degredation (such as Armour-All) and making sure to wash your hands after they come in contact with copper (pennies in your pocket). You can also wear a light glove before putting your hand in them. However, we concluded that for the most part they were at best a 6 or 7 year lifespan. that's not to say that there are not some great looking latex puppets out there. Axtell is living proof of that.
On your concerns about the mouth degredation on soft (sculpture) puppets, the better makers line the interior of the mouth with a thick plastic to stop the perspiration from your hand traveling through the fabric and staining the mouth of the puppet.
I have now seen some of Verna's original puppets now going on well over 20 years and holding up well. (And I might add, fetching a pretty nice price when resold.) I truely believe that the lifespan of a soft puppet is dependent on the care it is given. They will in fact wear out. This explains why Jeff in now on (I believe) his third "Peanut", but look at the money he has made with that character!! I can't speak for all makers, but we keep a full set of patterns on file for every puppet we make. Our concern is not as much that it will fall apart, but that the vent might have the misfortune of encountering baggage handlers at the airport or a home fire etc.
I just had to speak in defense of the soft puppet market, but to each his own.
Steve
www.thedummyshoppe.com
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Dickens & Dave
Inner circle
North Central Florida
1692 Posts
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Posted: Dec 12, 2010 10:31am
Quote:
| Our concern is not as much that it will fall apart, but that the vent might have the misfortune of encountering baggage handlers at the airport or a home fire etc.
I just had to speak in defense of the soft puppet market, but to each his own. |
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Hope nothing I wrote came off as intending to be a slight against soft puppets, like I said before, I really enjoy watching other people use them, and I like them when I use one because you can get a lot more animation out of them, but I did worry about those other factors. Turns out I was wrong about the cloth puppets, but right about the latex ones from what you said - which is a bummer because I really like the one I have, and there's no way I could get another because it's a Lovik flexi-folk I got from Maher Studios about 15 years ago.
http://dickensndave.bravehost.com/index.html
"Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I fly away, and be at rest."
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axtell
V.I.P.
Steve Axtell
1959 Posts
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Posted: Dec 20, 2010 1:19am
Soft is amazingly approachable and nothing moves like your hand inside a puppet. Depending on the care, Axtell Latex puppets will last 3-10 years before breaking down (some are still going after 20 years... but even when you develop a crack and what that "new puppet look" we can just replace a head for 1/3 the cost of a new puppet. No worries. By the way, you should check out the new stuff we have coming out... http://www.axtell.com/new/
steve @ axtell.com
Axtell Expressions, Inc.
Professional Puppets & Magic
http://www.AXTELL.com
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Dickens & Dave
Inner circle
North Central Florida
1692 Posts
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Posted: Dec 21, 2010 12:35am
Found some pictures, and this isn't a great one, but this it's a small pic of the lion puppet I mentioned earlier;
BTW, for those who use soft puppets, there is someone selling the heck out of George Bush full body puppets on ebay for a dollar plus 12.95 for shipping. For fourteen dollars, can't go wrong, the Bush thing doesn't matter, he could be any older guy figure.
http://dickensndave.bravehost.com/index.html
"Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I fly away, and be at rest."
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Dynamike
Eternal Order
20607 Posts
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Posted: Dec 28, 2010 10:49pm
I like the soft figure ones more because more face emotions can be shown.
Dynamike
Oakland County Magician Macomb County Magician Wayne County Magician Detroit Magician Detroit Clown
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Joseph_Then
Special user
694 Posts
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Posted: Dec 29, 2010 9:39am
After using soft puppets for 4+ years, I finally get a chance to use a custom-made hard puppet. My personal verdict is that I still prefer soft puppet, for practical reasons as I need to travel from shows to shows.
Soft puppets are easy to bring around, hard puppets are really 'hard' to transport them.
-----
Joseph Then
Singapore Birthday Party
Planning a Birthday Party
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Servante
Inner circle
1262 Posts
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Posted: Dec 29, 2010 10:44am
On that "latex degrading" thing...
Yes, it does. I've made any number of puppets and masks and prosthetics out of latex, and it does degrade. Takes a long time, but it does.
But you've reminded me...
Back in the mid-sixties I did a commercial film for Phillips 66. Built a handful of muppet-style puppets (It was so long ago that the film producers had never heard of the Muppets!). I didn't really understand how Henson built his, so I sculpted mine in clay, made latex heads and covered them with terrycloth. They lasted well into the eighties (My contract stated that I got to keep my puppets), and I used them in several Christmas shows.
They're down in the basement (along with the Punch and Judy celastic set). I should go down there and look them up and see how they're fairing. The terrycloth covering could serve to make them viable even after the latex started turning. If I can find 'em, I'll report back!
-Philip
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Dickens & Dave
Inner circle
North Central Florida
1692 Posts
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Posted: Dec 29, 2010 11:27am
I've got a Lovik Flexi-folk figure in a case in the closet, I'm afraid to even get him out and look at him.
http://dickensndave.bravehost.com/index.html
"Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I fly away, and be at rest."
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Servante
Inner circle
1262 Posts
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Posted: Dec 29, 2010 12:38pm
Being in the dark might've helped him.
-Philip
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Dickens & Dave
Inner circle
North Central Florida
1692 Posts
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Posted: Dec 29, 2010 4:18pm
The last time I had him out and looked at him, he still seemed solid, other than his face looked like it had yellowed (but not his hands). If he is still hanging in there, I could probably paint him.
http://dickensndave.bravehost.com/index.html
"Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I fly away, and be at rest."
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