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ralphs007 Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Hi
I've had this over a year and I just started using it. I was worried about ending dirty so I was hesitant about using this effect. What a mistake, I've been getting great reactions with this effect and no one ever looks at the dirty hand. I was going to use a Mag**t hol***T but I don't think it's needed. While they're looking at the coins I CP the gimmick and then I remove the coins from there hand with my dirty hand. I learned a valuable lesson, I have to get over Magicians guilt. I have more effects that I was afraid of doing because I thought I'd get busted but that's going to change from now on. I think having the attitude that it's just a trick is better than worrying about getting caught! hth Ralph
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him".
James D. Miles |
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NYVetteGuy Regular user 107 Posts |
This is a great effect!
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
It's just one of many great effects from the magical mind of Steve Dusheck, a truly remarkable magician and magic creator.
Incidentally this effect, as first originated by Dusheck, was called Copper Silver Transpo, and then much later (many, many years later) it was brought out by Theory 11 and re-named, Digital Dissolve. Either-which-way, it's definitely a Dusheck creation. Enjoy it and now you know the rest of the story.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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polygonsmagic Veteran user 372 Posts |
I saw BJ Bueno perform this at a convention, maybe 8 or 10 years ago. Now there is some other guy demoing it on theory 11. To see Bueno perform this compared to what you are seeing now...there is no comparison. I believe Asher added something really nice to this, that I have no idea if it is part of the published material now, it certainly isn't in the demo.
The rest of the story, that I have been told, and I have been following this ever since everyone attacked Bueno for releasing his handling of this gaff on Magic Café....Bueno was originally going to release this with Lee Asher. But at that time, Bob Kohler was the one who somehow claimed he owned all the rights to Dusheck's effects, and was blatant about telling them they could not release this. This is when Asher thoroughly researched the beginnings of this gaff and posted them somewhere, I forget where. Some of the people he contacted were Pressely Guitar, John Rocherbahmer, maybe Fulves, I forgot all, but he seriously tried to find out the origins. It was also rumored at the time that Kohler had wanted to release a similar lesser effect, and he did not want the competition on the market. I think these guys were very busy with their lives at that time, and knowing what a successful businessman Bueno is, it's easy to understand why they let it die back then. I was surprised to see it resurface years later. What I garnered at that time, was that Duscheck had given Schoolcraft permission to make a "few" of these. Then Theory 11 went crazy producing this "with" permission from Duscheck. But that was not the case, according to what I read here, and Dusheck was not happy that Schoolcraft was mass producing it without giving him a piece of the pie. I guess all that was rectified to Dusheck's satisfaction. My opinion is that even the demo I saw of this does no justice to Bueno's handling. If they are not publishing the orignal Bueno and Asher handlings of this, I say good. I am very familiar with Dusheck's routine as it was originally written, and my opinion is that Bueno elevated this to another level. In his hands it is pure magic far beyond previous handlings, and I'm also of the opinion that even though the roots of this are accepted as Dusheck's, no one should have criticized Bueno for releasing his awesome handling of the gaff. This is the magic community, and I don't know of any magicians that don't borrow from previous handlings of gaffs and cards. I'm sure there are plenty who will disagree, but every time I see this effect mentioned someone always has to redundantly remind us that they think this is entirely Duscheck's material, when in fact, the Digital Dissolve handling is far superior to any of it's predecessors, and that handling was not created by Steve Duscheck, it was created by BJ Bueno. Not trying to dig this up again or start a war, just let it be known that "the rest of the story" is not the WHOLE story. |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Well, the truth should be repeated less scoundrels change it...You sure got a big shovel to not be trying to dig something up again.
Funny how you weave the story to include Dusheck some and then practically dismiss him with more complete homage paid to Bueno. He didn't write the song, didn't make the record but yet you reward him it all for dancing his dance to the music. What I said initially here was the truth...It's lies that need such embellishment and re-illustration, revisionist history if you will. What you fail to mention here is that when Bueno put out Digital Dissolve on Theory 11, no credit was given to Dusheck much if at all, is this not correct? It wasn't just that it was Bueno's handling but that also it was that the gaff, the set was the exact same apparatus originally made by Dusheck. Do you notice how everything I've said in these few lines is missing as big points of interest from all you said "of all you said?" No one ever denied that Bueno's handling wasn't nice or a new take but you use that as some sort of end-all that what Bueno came up with was enough to not give Dusheck his due as though it was something completely new, something Dusheck came up with decades before and put the exact same hammer to the very same nail toward basically the same effect. It's like doing a different handling with a Svengali Deck but calling it the Digital Deck. Finally, behind that whole big argument here on the Café, and the overwhelming cry of the people, Theory 11 also eventually saw the error of its way (also their bottomline on the item dropping as well as their young guns reputation around the the magic community withering) and worked it out with Duschek to better include him as to the effect, is this not true??? Your shovel might be big but it's got a lot holes in it...you drop as much dirt as you pick up. That's a little more as to the rest of the story that you conveniently left out in your version. Most honorable people will see for themselves as to what's right here as to what & how it all came to be. It's really very simple. You sound like the big voice in the Wizard of Oz that told Dorothy, the Tin Man, the Scare Crow and the Cowardly Lion, "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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BanzaiMagic Inner circle 1339 Posts |
Theory 11 does now give proper credit to Steve on their DVD and includes a pdf of Steve's original routine (alas, this was not in the older DVD that I purchased). I understand from correspondence with Steve that he is now very satisfied - Money was a lesser consideration than attribution if you know anything about Steve. Steve is a great inventor of many things. Bueno's routine using Steve's gaff is quite good. Perhaps now this issue can rest.
Regards, Alan |
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J-Mac Inner circle Ridley Park, PA 5338 Posts |
I decided to go take a look at Digital Dissolve at Theory11. I must say that the video there is terrible and would not ever convince me to purchase if I didn't know more independently about the effect. Just my personal taste I guess but it's a loud "street magic" type video with mostly shots of people on the street screaming and expressing their disbelief in vulgar terms. Never did show what the actual effect is clearly. Horrible ad for the product IMO. So I looked for other demos at YouTube and clicked on the first, which just happened to be a MagicGeek video; that almost made me want to go back and rewatch the T11 demo!! (I said "almost"... but not quite.)
Finally found an Alakazam video with Mike Davis showing the effect quickly, clearly, and very nicely. It does look sweet! I noticed that both Dan White and the MagicGeek guy had a tendency to speed up deceptively after initially showing the coins and then placing them into the spectator's hand, while Mike Davis took his time and was much more magical looking! Thanks! Jim |
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polygonsmagic Veteran user 372 Posts |
MB217. Who invented the muscle pass? Was it John Cornelius? I think so. He is the first to show it on his video and explain how it came about. Now every time you see the muscle pass, all around the world, being performed by probably literally thousands of magicians, do you think 10 percent of them know who originated the effect? Doubtful. Did you know MB217? Who's giving John props and money? Is this an isolated case? Not. And how many of the magic distributors sold knock-offs of his pen with no credit going to John? Really, name one magician that this hasn't happened to, other than some guy like Copperfield with a team of lawyers.
You need to get a grip, this ain't wizard of oz. We get it, you like Duscheck, but give us a break, in this incidence with the slippery sam gimmick, the originality of the gaff was greatly debated by, I hate to say, probably more qualified magic minds than yours. I've got another one for you. MB217, you invent a coin trick using some gaff. You publish this. You sell it. Now some guy comes along 20 years later, long after your parade with the effect, with a new handling for your effect and it is a lot better. He has improved it. Now do you go running to this guy and cry baby about him not mentioning your name, or do you congratulate him on his art and encourage him? (Bueno politely asked Dusheck for permission, and Dusheck said no at the behest of Kohler, so keep perspective, these guys were not nice to Bueno) Hey, let the new guy have a go, he deserves it for so elegantly resurrecting an old effect. When does it end? If every magician knew who created cups and balls centuries ago, should they all be sending money to their modern day ancestors? God bless John Cornelius, he is a great guy, a great inventor, with a great demeanor. Now let's see 27 pages of how great he is and how wronged he was, to be fair, I mean. |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Your premise is wrong poly, you are supplying rationales for what happens and making the outcomes the right...You have no regard for truth and honesty. So Bueno asked for permission and didn't get, so then he basically just Bogarted it, is that about right? He basically said to h*ll with the old man, sorta like America did with the Indians. After they did it they constructed the ongoing rationale as to why and how to their best interest. Oh and no cry baby here dude, I said what I had to say about it and it's all true. You on the other hand just go around looking for examples where the robberies occurred and people kept it moving. I think people here can see the differences in our arguments. I'll leave it that. Hey, but if you don't like the Wizard of Oz, try Flash of Genius...I can clearly see what side of that ledger you would be on...Everyone here can see.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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polygonsmagic Veteran user 372 Posts |
No regard for truth and honesty? C'mon. You are making this up as you go. Bueno is one of the gentlest, most gracious guys in magic, and you are talking out your you know what. If you knew him or even met him, you would stop your rediculous tirade. I'm not getting into all the crediting, but I will say again, it was heavily debated if this gaff pre-dated Dusheck. When Kohler told these guys they couldn't release this, they left it alone until Theory 11 decided JS had permission to make this, after years had passed. How is that just basically bogarting?
At the time when Bueno asked for permission, he was told that he had to consult Bob Kohler, because Bob was the only one that had permission to produce any of Dusheck's effects, following some who knows what agreement BK made with SD. I think BK now thinks he owns the rights to anything half shell, as was evidenced by Mark Mason agreeing to pay BK a hefty royalty on his Come Fly with Me, like 50 bucks a set or something. Did any of that trickle down to your friend? I think you guys got the wrong villian, for sure it ain't Bueno, so give it a rest, again. If SD deserves credits and royalties for this, I think he is one of the rare cases that got any satisfaction, isn't that enough without having to hear he was the creator every time this effect is mentioned? We know the whole story already, you couldn't have missed it. |
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ralphs007 Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Hi J-Mac
I think the MagicGeek guy's presentation was terrible.It's his ending that really bothered me. He was so worried about ditching the gimmick that he looked like he stole something! I don't understand why magicians worry about ditching that special something when they're making a demo. There is no one there to bust them so why concern yourself with ditching your gaff. I remember watching the demo for the Bravo Karate trick (finger through bill effect). It looked good but the guy was too concerned about the ditch in the demo. If you get busted making a video just edit the film. hth Ralph
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him".
James D. Miles |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-11 14:29, polygonsmagic wrote: We get it, you like Bueno, but give us a break... Why did he ask for permission if he didn't think he needed it? When he didn't get what he came for then he just did his own thing. I don't know the guy, but then again I don't Bernie Madoff either, should I really be so hard on him...I mean, he didn't mess up my money? And I make no tirades or rants here, I'm simply just supporting what I so simply said initially here and that you took exception with and started the "rant" thing here...Go back and see for yourself where the rant actually begins. Oh and I'm not speaking up here for Kohler, just speaking up for Dusheck because he deserves that, he's given tons to magic and deserves a better respect given by these slick New Jacks. He certainly deserves credit for the effect and only got it after the magic community here strongly stood up for him. Yes, this has all been argued before and T11 righted their wrong (behind pressure) as to it, Never heard much from Bueno about it afterwards but I'm sure he's a wonderful guy just the same. You think because SD got a little reward for his troubles that should be enough...But see that shows that you don't care about the right & wrong of the matter. Well, I do and everytime I can pick a piece of litter off the ground, I will if I want. Like I said, let the community here decide where the dirt is. And you're right, we do know the whole story and who the scoundrels were in the matter and it wasn't Dusheck, now was it? You don't have to rectify something that's not wrong to begin with, or put a bandaid on a cut that's not bleeding. So, did you catch Flash of Genius yet??? I can see a guy like you just loving that kind of stuff. Hey what part do you think Dusheck would've played in that movie? Just asking.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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polygonsmagic Veteran user 372 Posts |
Why did he ask for permission if he didn't think he needed it? Like I said a number of times, no one was entirely convinced that Duscheck was the originator after researching the matter, so I guess he was being an extra special nice guy. Actually, I think Bueno asked for his blessing, not his permission. I worded that wrong.
Slick new jacks indeed. Didn't see the movie. Done with this. Have a nice day. |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Guess no one was entirely convinced that he wasn't the originator as well, is that also about right based upon your "just about but not quite" logic here? Heck, don't a tie still go to the runner?
Yep, not even a blessing was given and then the taking began. That's what people tend to do when they don't get their way, they make & take their way and that's about what happened here no matter how you try to spin it here. Again the T11 boys could only fix something that was clearly broken, mostly because of pressure to do what was right, which again means something was definitely wrong that just couldn't so easily/New Jack slickly be avoided this time around. It is what it is and that's pretty much what happened. The truth will out...Thank you for the opportunity to engage, enlighten and expound further upon it. Gotta keep the grass cut and keep the weeds down. Make sure you catch that movie or just google it to see what it's about. I really think you'll like it...it's definitely you. Goodnight Mrs. Kallabash and you have a great day as well and my very best to the gang, they actually do have a lot of very good work there from some really good workers, pretty nice website too.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
P*,
IMHO had T11 simply released the routines that used the gaff in a booklet or DVD alone there would have been far more focus on praises all around for the novel aspects of the handling and ideas used. The issue, as best I understand it was the manufacture of the gaff and some sidebars about how the matter of Dusheck's crediting was handled. The online discourse got uncomfortable and personal. The lack of mention of Steve and his earlier works using the gaff in various forms on the product DVD was IMHO an awkward aspect of the product. I'm glad some folks decided to explore Steve's improvement on the item that's in Discoverie of Witchcraft (the rim and attractive aspects ) and hope folks continue to explore and expand the possibilities of such gaffs. To save typing I use "L" for those and "[" for the regulars. The term "Slippery Sam" in this context applies to a marketed item which had both magnetic coins and L's. Again, if Asher, Bueno and others want to publish novel routines using the L gaff - fine as far as I'm concerned.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-10 12:33, ralphs007 wrote:...Magicians guilt.... The more you try routines for people the more you can find out where you have room to work (methods) and places in routines where you really do have to manage the traffic of props and attention. Feel free to ask about tricks and routines as you explore. And congrats on getting a fine c-s transpo item into your working repertoire.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-10 20:37, polygonsmagic wrote: I'd enjoy seeing those routines that impressed you. I like it when folks find a fit between their personal style and a methodology to create a routine that works for them in performance.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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saysold1 Eternal Order Recovering Cafe addict with only 10795 Posts |
Just a helpful hint for those that own Digital Dissolve:
The gi*****d coin that I bought from Theory 11 started wearing very badly on the underside with the Te***n. I was getting wear on the edges within a few weeks - The issue was probably more the way it was originally applied too close to the edges. In any event, perfect replacements are available here made by Tango - Got my set today from Penguin for $6.00 and applied one disc ...it and it works like a charm! Better than new and nice and smooth like butter. Link here: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S11409
Creator of The SvenPad Supreme(R) line of aerospace level quality, made in the USA utility props. https://svenpads.com/
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BanzaiMagic Inner circle 1339 Posts |
I have used Tango discs for years and they work great with every coin I use them on.
Regards, Alan |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I posted something for DD/Duscheck Ultimate C-S/Slippery Sam folks on the Genii BBS
A couple of routine outlines. Have fun. :)
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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