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Michael Rubinstein
V.I.P.
2540 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 10:43am
Last day here, so I'll try to get in a few more thoughts. Do coin tricks stand well enough on their own that we don't need that special surprise at the end of a routine, or do you like to throw in one once in a while. Which routines do you think need a kicker, and how many routines will you perform in one set that have one? DOES EVERY ROUTINE NEED A GIANT COIN PRODUCTION ENDING TO MAKE IT EFFECTIVE? (I'm yelling, sorry).
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Dan Watkins
Inner circle
PA
3014 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 2:54pm
Kickers are nice, but no not all routines need them.
I think they work best for the more predictable repetitious effects, as a way to make the routine completely bust the spectator's conditioning.
Not all kickers have to be big coins either 
For example, I use the Mike Gallo coins through the table kicker all the time, because I don't have to worry about the last coin when all the heat is on, it is a repetitious effect, and spectators aren't expecting all the coins to come back through the table. I think it is more dramatic than just making the last coin go.
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Chris Berry
Special user
831 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 3:13pm
I think certain effects, like Dan mentioned, do need kickers to pack a punch at the end.
I think the best think to do is save your "big kicker" for the very end of your routine. On your last trick just hit 'em with it!
Chris
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Michael Rubinstein
V.I.P.
2540 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 3:43pm
Good points. So, a kicker might come in handy to end a routine based on repetitions. I might add, it should also make sense. That was my point with the large coin. A kicker is surprising, but has to make sense so as not to distract from the overall plot. Which kickers do you use?
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Chris Berry
Special user
831 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 4:25pm
Quote:
| Which kickers do you use? |
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Good question. I don't use a jumbo coin becase I don't own one! (Could be a good thing).
For my coins through table I end with a "double kicker."
When the last coin is about to go through the table the first 2 coins backfire to the top, "I told you this was the hardest one to go through! Unless..." Then bam! All 3 go through all at once!
Chris
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Tripwire
New user
76 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 4:32pm
I'm not a huge fan of the "big coin". Do spectators really believe it's the same coin? I don't think so.
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Michael Rubinstein
V.I.P.
2540 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 5:00pm
There are situations where use of the big coin is a pleasant surprise, but my only point is that it shouldn't be over used. I don't think that anyone really thinks its the same coin, just as they don't think a coin really vanishes or turns into chinese coins, etc.
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Dan Watkins
Inner circle
PA
3014 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 6:20pm
I have NEVER had any situation where a layperson did not react very well to a jumbo coin ending. I don't know why, they just like that darn thing. I really don't think they believe it is the same coin. They usually respond with, "Where the heck did THAT come from." after the laughter.
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 7:20pm
yes, there's no better way to make your audience forget a poor presentation of an effect... than to stick on a non-sequitor ending or production.
Why stop with large coins?
hey, where did that skunk come from?
Look, a lion!
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dan Watkins
Inner circle
PA
3014 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 7:24pm
Jon, how do you really feel about kickers?
I believe one must be intelligent about their use of kickers, i.e. they must make sense.
Me personally, the only time I use the big coin is at the end of a one coin flurry. I believe Roth popularized this ending to a flurry.
Other routines like the aforementioned Gallo kicker fits the routine, coins are going through the table one at a time, 3 have gone… why not have all of them come back UP through the table? It is related to the theme of the routine – if coins can go down – if you hit too hard on the bottom, why not back up?
I think some routines have kickers built into them, even if we don’t really consider it a kicker. Take Gadabout Coins or any two in the hand one in the pocket effect. The repetition is that the coin keeps jumping back to the hand. Having all the coins vanish at the end is a kicker, and is a good end to the routine.
I think a great kicker to a coins across routine would be something like… the coins go across one at a time… then all of the sudden they all travel to the other hand at once. It is a surprising ending; however it remains true to the plot, thus an intelligent kicker.
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 8:10pm
True, and they respond even more to a production of a skunk or lion.
So why aren't more folks doing just that?
Appealing to authority, tradition and rationalizing just waste the reader's time. Some PRESENTATIONS lend themselves to surprise events/endings. No argument there.
Very difficult to discuss 'kickers' without a careful review of the presentations.
Really folks, try this sometime at home when doing magic for guests... do your routine straight through, and at the end, produce a dove, or the family cat. See how much of memorable surprise it makes. Nothing like turning the 'ambitious' card into a dove... as it finally achieves its ambition and becomes alive. Or a coin assembly where a cat appears under the cards as the explanation to how the coins got there quietly. cats are stealty animals
I like the idea of a card to wallet where the wallet expands to HUGE size, you unzip it and an assistant walks out with the signed card.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Rubinstein
V.I.P.
2540 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 8:39pm
Jon, can you tell me how to do that matrix with the cat kicker? It sounds a bit ruff to do.
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Tripwire
New user
76 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 8:40pm
Jon got my point precisely.
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 8:52pm
The cat sits on the chair behind the table.
you have a can of tuna open in your back pocket like for the Roth "Stonehenge" assembly.
Then you do the load with the tuna can under cover of the cards... held perpendicular to the audience on the table.
The cat sees the tuna get tabled, and follows... jumping onto the table.
Voila! Sleight of cat!
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Rubinstein
V.I.P.
2540 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 9:11pm
Jon, one is good, but tuna better!
Dan, I agree with you completely. And I suspect Jon agrees with you too, as long as you don't bring out the skunk! So, kickers have to make sense, and not be over used. Any last thoughts before they lock up for the night?
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25257 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 9:20pm
well, the cat could deliver kittens 
I'm starting to really like the idea of doing an ambitious card thing where the climax is the card becomes a bird and flys away.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Rubinstein
V.I.P.
2540 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 9:29pm
[quote]
On 2003-08-24 21:20, JonTown wrote:
well, the cat could deliver kittens
Jon, you know I hate multi cat production endings! You gotta spay extra!
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G. LaBarre
Regular user
Vancouver, B.C. Canada
121 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 9:57pm
I like the idea of continuity in an act (all coins, a matching jumbo object, complimentary colours used, etc), but a surprise ending can be the best kicker (where the heck did that come from).
This got me to thinking that after almost any routine you could easily say, "That was exhausting, I need a drink." Wipe your brow with a hanky and then under cover, produce a FULL GLASS of LIQUID REFRESHMENT.
But I do think the kicker (even if it is connected with the act) should not be done right at the moment of the first miracle. Give it a little time delay for the audience to react to the first amazing effect.
Then they might even say something or set you up for the bigger ending. It would be their idea for the Grand Finale. You're creating a new miracle as an after thought.
I don't know, just a thought.
Glen Alan - "The HOW in your Magic should be Secondary to the WOW in your Magic."
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Michael Rubinstein
V.I.P.
2540 Posts
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Posted: Aug 24, 2003 10:39pm
Good point. The kicker, if not related to the initial effect, must be done after the effect finishes, so as not to interfere with the orinal effect. As such, it in actuality becomes another effect onto itself. So the drink idea is a nice finish, but really stands on its own. If, on the other hand, you did a spellbound routine and changed the coin into a glass of water, that might not work.
This was said somewhere in a post of the past, but the kicker can be the climax of the effect, but the climax does not have to be a kicker.
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