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BarryFernelius
Inner circle
Still learning, even though I've made
2100 Posts
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Posted: Feb 6, 2012 2:39pm
Most stage magic doesn’t make sense to me. Picture this: the curtain opens, and the magician steps out on stage. He’s lean, he’s strikingly handsome, and he’s got a bit of an attitude. Then, his stage crew brings out this strange looking box that doesn’t look like anything on planet Earth. (It looks as though it might be from another planet.) Then, the fog rolls in, the garish theater lights come on, and the loud rock music starts to play. The magician’s beautiful assistant is enticed to enter the box, and she’s trapped inside. Then, the magician shoves swords and blades into the box. The stage crew turns the box so we can see the devastation from every angle. Then, as the loud rock music reaches its crescendo, the swords and blades are removed from the box, the lovely assistant steps out, and (not surprisingly) she is unharmed.
But that’s not what confuses me. So far, everything makes perfect sense. What I don’t understand is this: after all of that, she still likes him! Which makes no theatrical sense whatsoever.
I suppose that’s why I do close-up magic instead.
"I don't teach people stories about the coyote for them to tell. I AM the coyote. They tell stories about me."
-Pop Haydn
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David Tower
Regular user
David Tower
124 Posts
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Posted: Feb 6, 2012 2:59pm
Most close up magic doesn't make sense. Why would I tear up a piece of tissue paper (or a card) only to put it back together? Why would I produce a coin, vanish it, reproduce it, and vanish it again? Why would I cut a piece of string (or rope) and put it back together? Why would I turn a $1 bill into a $100 bill and then back again?
Let's face it, 87.6% of all magic does not make sense.
David
www.DavidTower.com
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BarryFernelius
Inner circle
Still learning, even though I've made
2100 Posts
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Posted: Feb 6, 2012 3:33pm
You state that 87.6% of all magic does not make sense. You're right; how could I possibly disagree? Most magic shows are a string of non sequiturs, like a fireworks show. Is this a good thing? I can't legislate the answer for other magicians; I can only speak about my own preferences. Every item in my close-up act has a theatrical context in which it makes sense. (I won't bore you with the blow-by-blow accounts for each trick.) Isn't it my job to create a character and a context to frame the magic effects?
I no longer perform the bill transformation effect. But when I used to do the trick in which a $1 bill was transformed into a $100 bill, I started the effect by offering to purchase the $1 bill for $2. I congratulated the person on making a 100% profit. I would transform the $1 bill into a $100 bill, but I NEVER changed it back into a $1 bill. Why? Because in the context of that trick, it wouldn't make any sense to do so. Instead, I pocketed the $100 bill, which was consistent with the character that I was playing at the time. But I have seen magicians create presentations for this same effect in which it makes perfect sense to turn the $100 bill back into a $1 bill. Again, it's all about context and character.
One of the reasons that I love Penn and Teller is that they have well-defined characters, and everything in their show has a context and an internal logic. Penn and Teller's show has underlying opinions and ideas. They don't waste my time or bore me.
In the box trick that I described in the original post, imagine that before that trick, we have been given some insight into the character of the assistant. (Yes, she's treated as more than just another prop.) We gain some insight into her behavior and her feelings about the magician. Then, we see the same box trick that I described. At the end, when she steps out of the box, she poses, smiles, and accepts the applause. Then, BAM! she slaps the magician on the face and stomps off the stage!
"I don't teach people stories about the coyote for them to tell. I AM the coyote. They tell stories about me."
-Pop Haydn
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BarryFernelius
Inner circle
Still learning, even though I've made
2100 Posts
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Posted: Feb 6, 2012 3:47pm
Quote:
| Why would I tear up a piece of tissue paper? |
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If you’re Peter Samelson, you’re remembering when you used to visit your father’s study. On his desk was a large snow globe. You remember wishing that you could step inside and watch the snow swirl around you.
Quote:
| Why would I produce a coin, vanish it, reproduce it, and vanish it again? |
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If you’re David Roth, you’re demonstrating the curious properties of an incredible cartoon object: a Portable Hole.
Quote:
| Why would I cut a piece of string (or rope) and put it back together? |
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If you’re Eugene Burger, you’re telling the story of how the Hindu gods create, sustain, destroy, and then re-create the entire universe.
"I don't teach people stories about the coyote for them to tell. I AM the coyote. They tell stories about me."
-Pop Haydn
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George Ledo
Magic Café Columnist
SF Bay Area
2199 Posts
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Posted: Feb 6, 2012 6:40pm
Going back to the OP, what grabbed me immediately is that the style of presentation described goes back to the 19th century. All we're doing differently now is showing more skin, dancing around (so to speak), and introducing strobes and intelligent lights. Maybe the biggest difference between this and Herrmann/Kellar/etc. is that the old illusionists did clue us in as to who they were, so the idea of them doing "magic" (as opposed to demonstrating a box) made sense in the context of the times.
That's Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
Latest column: That's cool, but why are you doing it?
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Darkwing
Inner circle
Nashville Tn
1765 Posts
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Posted: Feb 6, 2012 6:42pm
Magic by it's very nature is illogical.
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25255 Posts
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Posted: Feb 6, 2012 7:22pm
Quote:
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On 2012-02-06 18:42, Darkwing wrote:
Magic by it's very nature is illogical.
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Magic can't be illogical.
The magician's personal logic, which he imposes on the props, might not be what other people relate to by way of their personal logic - but that's life. 
Illogical, nonsensical and chaotic refer to different ideas.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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BarryFernelius
Inner circle
Still learning, even though I've made
2100 Posts
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Posted: Feb 6, 2012 7:29pm
Quote:
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On 2012-02-06 18:42, Darkwing wrote:
Magic by it's very nature is illogical.
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Seemingly impossible? Yes, of course.
Illogical? Not so much.
"I don't teach people stories about the coyote for them to tell. I AM the coyote. They tell stories about me."
-Pop Haydn
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Pakar Ilusi
Inner circle
4633 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2012 10:28am
Most stage magic doesn't make sense?
Why should it make sense?
If you want YOUR PERFORMANCE to make sense, fine...
Why should anyone else be forced to do that?
What about abstract painting and abstract art?
What if they set out to NOT make sense?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Brad Burt
Inner circle
2411 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2012 10:54am
I've been writing about this for years! LOL This is the reason that you have to just look at magic for what it is and nothing else. All that matters at the highest level IS the effect and possibly the 'affect' upon the audience. You have to look and see if the internal logic of the presentation is intact, but looking for something 'common senseical' will drive you crazy.
As noted above: Why...WHY would anyone turn a one dollar bill into a hundred and then back? Why would anyone make a playing card come to the top of the deck...again and again and again? Why in heaven's name would you link and unlink large metal rings?
But, then again....why is that anyone would care that someone could juggle 3, 4, 5 or more balls, clubs, etc.? Why would anyone ride on a Roller Coaster? Bungee jump?
It is what it is and it will never, ever really make sense in the 'sense' that taking care of a child or buying a Valentine Day card for your spouse makes sense. It just is. "Hey! Wanna see something really cool?" I've never had that one turned down. And, really, isn't that what the pitch is all about for magic? Seeing something cool? All we have to do as magical entertainers is make sure we deliver on the promise.
By the by....I used to turn the borrowed dollar into the hundred. Keep the hundred and give the spectator a dollar from my pocket. Most thought it was funny....sometimes....welllllll.....
Brad Burt
Brad Burt's Magic Shop Online
www.bradburtsmagicshop.com
Brad Burt's Private Lesson Teaching DVDS:
http://www.nexternal.com/bburt/Category18
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lynnef
Special user
608 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2012 11:55am
Stage magic is indeed a category of magic. I remember Penn once mentioning that 'most' stage magic (as opposed to close up magic) bores him; and yet stage magic is what he does well! He makes it 'cool'! I really don't like all that stuff with tigers, ladies and fog; but a LOT of people think its the tops. Perhaps, we should discuss which stage effects we really like, even if we don't like most of them. eg. I really like the 'metamorphosis' presentation, even though its been done over and over for decades. Lynn
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stoneunhinged
Inner circle
Göttingen
3005 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2012 12:32pm
I think that all performing arts have cliches, and that the bigger the show the more the cliches stand out.
And the cliches of stage magic seem to be the things that makes no sense. I mean, why does the girl wear tights in the first place? Looks good, to be sure. But why doesn't she wear a tuxedo and the magician wear the tights? Sexism, I'll tell you! Nonsensical, cliched sexism!
An idealistic, obsequious, sycophantic Mai-Ling kisser-upper....
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George Ledo
Magic Café Columnist
SF Bay Area
2199 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2012 12:50pm
Quote:
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On 2012-02-07 10:54, Brad Burt wrote:
As noted above: Why...WHY would anyone turn a one dollar bill into a hundred and then back? Why would anyone make a playing card come to the top of the deck...again and again and again? Why in heaven's name would you link and unlink large metal rings?
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I tend to agree with you, Brad, but I think the real question is "why would anyone care?"
Why would a bunch of guys get together to try to get a leather-covered balloon (which looks like a suppository) from here to a point fifty yards away while another bunch of guys tries to prevent it? Why would a guy hit a small ball with a stick to try to get it into a four-inch hole several hundred yards away? Why would somebody try to hit a ball coming at 90 MPH so he can run to a sandbag?
For the heck of it?
I can run a fifty-yard rush to a TD. Just hand me the ball, keep the defense away from me, and give me all the time I need. I'll get there. No problem. But why would anyone care enough to pay money to watch a 60-year-old guy do it?
I can -- and have -- hit a small ball with a stick and put it into a four-inch hole several hundred yards away. Many times. But it takes me a lot longer than this guy by the name of Tiger. Why would anyone care enough to watch me?
There's the difference.
That's Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
Latest column: That's cool, but why are you doing it?
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Pop Haydn
Inner circle
Los Angeles
1035 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2012 2:29pm
Knowing how to get them to want to watch the 62 year old put the ball in the hole, that is the art...
--Pop Haydn
The Sphere of Destiny
Pop's Soapbox
Pop Haydn in the 21st Century
Los Angeles magician
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Darkwing
Inner circle
Nashville Tn
1765 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2012 8:23pm
Quote:
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On 2012-02-06 18:42, Darkwing wrote:
Magic by it's very nature is illogical.
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It is illogical. I stand by my statement.
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Patrick Differ
Inner circle
far enough south to surprise you
1492 Posts
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Posted: Feb 8, 2012 10:33am
Re: the OP
If we look at what we see every day, and we decide "no", then we either continue to suffer the mediocracy, or we make moves to change it.
It isn't a question of good or bad. It isn't a question of right or wrong. It's a question of want or don't want. A matter of choice.
That's how change happens. We chose to change, to walk the trail less trodden.
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Michael Baker
Inner circle
Near a river in the Midwest
8463 Posts
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Posted: Feb 8, 2012 12:11pm
Other questions posed later in this thread, are indeed interesting. Why would someone do this, or do that? Well, by nature, the definition of magic (as presented by the likes of us) is a demonstration of something happening that is generally determined to be though of as something that can't. You cannot be a magician with displaying such mysteries. You cannot demonstrate magic, without a firm foundation in mystery. Outside this simple epicenter, and the definition begins to change.
The inherent mystery of say, watching a torn paper become whole again is complete in itself, as a mystery. To give this logic (in the true sense) would be to explain how it happens... and the ugly truth is, it doesn't. In order to preserve this as a mystery (even though we know it to be a falsehood), the truth must always be hidden, and the perceived implication must remain intact. It's really that basic.
So, a kind of false logic is usually layered on in order to lure lead the hound dogs off the path. This is the presentation. The presentation is where the level of interest, the excitement, the meaning, and the caring comes together to support the central mystery... or not.
This brings us to another of the questions, "why would anyone care?"
Why they would care is purely because the framework surrounding the mystery connects to the audience on some level that entices them to willingly commit their attention and time to absorbing this display with enjoyment... i.e., being entertained.
The degree of layering required, is often based upon the size of the venue, the target audience, and the message wishing to be proclaimed. The description in the OP of the "rock star" illusionist, started to sound ironically, quite a bit like an actual rock concert, although it seems that the illusionist actually offers more in the number of layers.
The problem probably lies in the fact that the rock concert is often more unique in it's originality, it contains elements that more people can relate to as being difficult to achieve, of course the celebrity factor, but most importantly, it strikes at a very visceral chord within the audience. The primal "mob" mentality is easily, or more often invoked. Illusionists rarely achieve this level, and I doubt even understand how to do this.
For one, the illusionist is usually in a position where he is presenting his show to a less defined audience. In order to appeal to such a crosscut of the population, the more "accepted" illusionists can best be defined as "middle of the road". This hardly walks on the cutting edge. The intensity of such a presentation must drop substantially, or look extremely out of place, and likely ridiculous. Too refined, and the negative effects can be felt from a different side of the same audience. As a result, something for everyone, but not enough of it to rock anyone's world.
But in comparison, take the same rock star musician, and put them into an "unplugged" environment. The enormity of the entire affair drops to a more contained level. The audience must as well, respond with a lesser outpouring. But this doesn't always mean that the audience is left disappointed.
The musician meets the audience on the appropriate level and the audience responds accordingly. Many magicians, whether illusionists or close-up guys, don't even know how to do this most basic of tasks.
~michael baker
The Magic Company
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Alan Wheeler
Inner circle
Athens, Georgia
1560 Posts
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Posted: Feb 8, 2012 5:33pm
The impossible is intrinsically interesting, regardless of how ridiculous or illogical the presentation!
--Alan Wheeler
English Instructor and
Performing Magician
Athens, Georgia U.S.A.
Racial Harmony
Jesus vs. the Occult
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Pakar Ilusi
Inner circle
4633 Posts
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Posted: Feb 8, 2012 6:32pm
Quote:
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On 2012-02-08 17:33, Alan Wheeler wrote:
The impossible is intrinsically interesting, regardless of how ridiculous or illogical the presentation!
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"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25255 Posts
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Posted: Feb 8, 2012 6:57pm
Quote:
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On 2012-02-06 14:39, BarryFernelius wrote:...after all of that, she still likes him! Which makes no theatrical sense whatsoever.
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Understood - that's where folks have room to develop characters and go with it.
Is it "good" for either of them?
Is it acting out one or both of their fantasies?
What is the item to each of them and to both of them?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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volto
Special user
603 Posts
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Posted: Feb 13, 2012 6:40am
Surely following theatrical convention makes sense, even if what's being protrayed doesn't? For instance, most Opera makes little or no sense. Most of the plots are crazy beyond belief. Even in the few that are vaguely believable, tragedy happens, then everyone sings about it in a funny voice. Magic is totally reasonable by comparison. Especially when you consider that otherwise sensible people are willing to pay hundreds of dollars to sit through a full week of opera about Alberich the magic dwarf, etc.
I guess what I'm saying is, it makes sense because it's traditional.
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George Ledo
Magic Café Columnist
SF Bay Area
2199 Posts
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Posted: Feb 13, 2012 12:00pm
Quote:
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I guess what I'm saying is, it makes sense because it's traditional.
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Not sure if I agree w/ that. Robert-Houdin is credited with changing the overall style of magic performances to fit more (to elevate it) into the then-current social mentality. Unfortunately, a lot of performers nowadays are still in the Robert-Houdin and Professor Hoffman period. Geez, even Dariel Fitzkee mentioned this back in the 1940s.
That's Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
Latest column: That's cool, but why are you doing it?
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Pop Haydn
Inner circle
Los Angeles
1035 Posts
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Posted: Feb 13, 2012 12:01pm
"It makes sense because it is traditional."
***
That is exactly right. There is a cultural convention of the performing magician, against which, or in line with, all magic acts play out. The "sense" comes from within the cultural milieu. We are seeing a performance that either supports our preconceptions of what a magician is and what he does, or challenges those same preconceptions.
--Pop Haydn
The Sphere of Destiny
Pop's Soapbox
Pop Haydn in the 21st Century
Los Angeles magician
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George Ledo
Magic Café Columnist
SF Bay Area
2199 Posts
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Posted: Feb 13, 2012 1:17pm
Quote:
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On 2012-02-13 12:01, Pop Haydn wrote:
We are seeing a performance that either supports our preconceptions of what a magician is and what he does, or challenges those same preconceptions.
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Okay, I can buy that.
I guess a separate question would be, do we want to support it or challenge it, and why would a performer choose one instead of the other?
That's Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
Latest column: That's cool, but why are you doing it?
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Pop Haydn
Inner circle
Los Angeles
1035 Posts
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Posted: Feb 13, 2012 1:33pm
Surprise. Novelty. I can think of many reasons.
But also, I think that the artist tends to pull or break against the currents. For example, if a culture was getting too tied up in superstition, a Penn and Teller type magic act may just be what the culture needs to pull back and look at things more coldly and scientifically. If the culture was in the opinion of the artist too materialistic, he might want to stretch their imaginations and enlarge their view of what is possible.
It seems to me that one of the most innovative magic tricks of all time was the Chessplaying Turk--using "a clockwork machine" as the "impossible" and magical cause of genuine artificial intelligence. "I have made a clockwork robot that can think and play chess."
This was an original interpretation of the nature of the magician's theme, and a seminal cultural idea--machines that could think. This is theater of the impossible without a hint of magic or the occult. It is very modern in my opinion. It probably inspired the computer and the self-governing robot.
What more could you ask of a magic act?
--Pop Haydn
The Sphere of Destiny
Pop's Soapbox
Pop Haydn in the 21st Century
Los Angeles magician
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13336 Posts
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Posted: Feb 13, 2012 2:21pm
Our culture, in the opinion of this artist, is too materialistic. As someone once remarked, if you want to know how things have changed then look and see that the biggest buildings in a places used to church's and now the biggest building are are banks. People are getting enough spiritual, which is why the necromancers are making the money. Men of mystery are in, cardsharps are out.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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Pop Haydn
Inner circle
Los Angeles
1035 Posts
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Posted: Feb 13, 2012 3:30pm
I don't know what it is like in the UK, Tommy, but people here will pay $19.95 for a $0.25 plastic bracelet that contains a "hologram" that "can balance out your energies" and who will buy a tube of ordinary wax called "Head On" that they can rub on their head if they have a headache. It doesn't even claim to cure the headache.
There are people in this country who will fall for the most absurd scams and quakeries because they don't have the ability to detect fraud or enough understanding of the scientific method or critical thinking to separate bunk from fact.
--Pop Haydn
The Sphere of Destiny
Pop's Soapbox
Pop Haydn in the 21st Century
Los Angeles magician
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13336 Posts
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Posted: Feb 13, 2012 5:43pm
Yes sorry, I meant that people have always needed a nice balance of spiritual and material satisfaction as its only natural, something to do with the left right brains we have I guess. The church used to be the thing that served that spiritual side. However the church has become less popular but people still seek something spiritual no matter what it is and the spiritual and weird stuff has become popular. Yes they are getting conned as usual but the point is the mob are looking for guys who are mysterious sorts like Blaine and the mentalists, they are looking for magic not tricks and the next big magician will be very close to being charlatan and the charlatans will be popular in the next decade. I know this from looking into my crystal ball. 
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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volto
Special user
603 Posts
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Posted: Feb 14, 2012 4:36am
On George's point of why a magician would choose to support a preconception rather than challenge it... some performers do both. A good example is Derren Brown (specifically his "Enigma" live act), which is a magic/mentalism act with spiritualistic overtones and staged in a deliberately Victorian style. He wears evening dress. The proscenium arch and curtains are decorated in rich reds and browns, with brass lettering. So from the point of view of the set, costume and much of the material, we're seeing a "traditional" magic act, but from the point of view of the script and atmosphere, the show is extremely modern and almost feels like a stand up comedy gig at points. I think this is a clever use of the preconception to increase the impact and tension... it allows him to build an atmosphere of mystery and even fear at some points, which can then be released with a gag to lighten the mood. I don't think that atmosphere would be possible without the Victorian staging. There is a point (where a hypnotized/possessed woman walks through the audience) where the audience are genuinely fearful. It's a beautiful show, if you haven't seen it, it's well worth watching - it's available on DVD.
Derren Brown is also interesting in terms of the Dilemma, because of what he does and how people seem to believe he does it. He's managed to fool a very sophisticated audience into believing he posesses fictional abilities, despite repeatedly telling the audience that he's tricking them.
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Alan Wheeler
Inner circle
Athens, Georgia
1560 Posts
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Posted: Feb 14, 2012 7:25pm
The Dilemma is extremely useful when analyzing Derren Brown's act!
--Alan Wheeler
English Instructor and
Performing Magician
Athens, Georgia U.S.A.
Racial Harmony
Jesus vs. the Occult
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