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mmreed
Inner circle
Harrisburg, PA
1431 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2012 8:03am
Im curious about how items are seen as to if they are a knock off or not, and why some are "accepted" while others see public outcry.
For example, folks maintain a militant perception towards magic makers for knocking off Dan Harlan's Cardtoon deck - and for good reason. Its a blatant knock off.
However, other products seem to be ignored, and even accepted when knocked off. For example, here on the Café is an ad for:
http://www.seomagic-usa.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21/products_id/824
Its a banner ad on the the main page.
Looking at this item, it seems to be a 100% knock off of http://www.murphysmagic.com/Product.aspx?id=45483
This is just one example - but there seems to be a number of items that are knock offs where folks seem "ok" with it, and even support it.
Mark Reed aka Marc Mayhem
http://www.marcmayhem.com
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edh
Inner circle
4702 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2012 8:34pm
It depends on whose doing the knocking off. 
But in this case the plot is the same but the method is different.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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mmreed
Inner circle
Harrisburg, PA
1431 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2012 8:41pm
Edh, in reading the descriptions, it sounds the exact same method - powered by battery, slight noise... ect..ect...
Mark Reed aka Marc Mayhem
http://www.marcmayhem.com
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writeall
Elite user
Midland, Michigan
496 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2012 10:30pm
Just going by the ad copy, one is self-contained and the other is not.
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mmreed
Inner circle
Harrisburg, PA
1431 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2012 10:40pm
Even self contained, had this been released by, hmm lets say Magic Makers, the community would be in an uproar.
that's my point of this thread, it seems the issue is not ripping off items - but rather WHO decides to rip them off.
just found it interesting that many ripoffs are often praised and endorsed by some of the most vocal against other rip offs. Interesting.
Mark Reed aka Marc Mayhem
http://www.marcmayhem.com
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Andrew Zuber
Inner circle
Manhattan Beach, CA
2406 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2012 11:49pm
I think some companies like Magic Makers get that reputation because of the quality (or lack thereof) of some items. I somehow obtained a Svengali deck made by them, and the cards were the worst thing I had ever handled in my life. I wouldn't call it a ripoff per say, as you can find Svengali decks in a number of different brands, but the item itself was cheaply made and handled poorly.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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mmreed
Inner circle
Harrisburg, PA
1431 Posts
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Posted: Feb 7, 2012 11:58pm
Interesting concept where quality is part of the equation to when folks complain about a knock off. Improved quality is seen as an improved version even if without permission.
Mark Reed aka Marc Mayhem
http://www.marcmayhem.com
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Dougini
Inner circle
I have killed more topics with my
4542 Posts
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Posted: Feb 8, 2012 1:37pm
Just watch what you order on eBay. I thought I was ordering an original Amazing Jumping Arrow, and it was a ripoff from China, and not even an aluminum bar like the package said! I contacted Yedid right away, and now I have an original! I had to spend $15 to correct it, but was a lesson learned! 
Doug
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mastermindreader
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
6071 Posts
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Posted: Feb 8, 2012 1:58pm
Different quality or not, knock offs are knock offs. Those who knowingly put out other peoples original material or props without permission are losers who should be shunned by the fraternity.
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edh
Inner circle
4702 Posts
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Posted: Feb 8, 2012 4:42pm
Very true Bob, and I agree with what you say. Unfortunately that is not what is happening. I'll go back to my original post: It depends on who is doing the ripping off.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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mastermindreader
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
6071 Posts
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Posted: Feb 8, 2012 4:47pm
Quote:
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On 2012-02-08 16:42, edh wrote:
Very true Bob, and I agree with what you say. Unfortunately that is not what is happening. I'll go back to my original post: It depends on who is doing the ripping off.
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Sad but true. The support that is given to some of the more notorious knock off merchants is sad indeed.
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Jim Sparx
Inner circle
Far Out, Texas
1125 Posts
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Posted: Feb 23, 2012 9:57am
I'm sure people ask themselves the question, "Why should I pay $500 for a trick when I can get it for $45?" (Meteors). And how much of a ripoff is a $500 trick that can be bought for $45?
Spartacus died for your sloth
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mmreed
Inner circle
Harrisburg, PA
1431 Posts
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Posted: Feb 23, 2012 10:14am
Spartacus brings up a good point. However toplay devils advocate, that would be like saying a $1000 TV can be gotten from a guy selling them in an alley off the back of a truck for $500... so why pay the $1000? Its still not ethical (or even legal in this case) However it happens all the time... just goes to show the magic community is not exempt from consumer behavior.
Same with buying knock off Nike sneakers ar a flea market... happens all the time, and in that case, its even supported by the community as an in demand item.
The key to minimizing knock offs is for magic inventors to offer extreme quality at a very enticing price and make it widely available. Low quality knock offs only thrive when there is a disconnect between that.
I fully understand some inventors desire to limit what they offer to a select qty - the idea is to create value and exclusiveness. that's great - but that's a HUGE "come knock me off" flag that gets waved.
But like I said - it happens all the time in business - its not something that can be avoided without costly legal protection.
Mark Reed aka Marc Mayhem
http://www.marcmayhem.com
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Jim Sparx
Inner circle
Far Out, Texas
1125 Posts
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Posted: Feb 23, 2012 11:31am
I just want to add that I have no interest in buying Meteors for $500 or the knockoff price of $45. It was just something I came across while perusing China Magic (someone here had recommended CM for another effect). But still, $500 as opposed to $45 makes you think.
"I fully understand some inventors desire to limit what they offer to a select qty - the idea is to create value and exclusiveness. that's great - but that's a HUGE "come knock me off" flag that gets waved."
Exactly.
Spartacus died for your sloth
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Mr. Mystoffelees
Inner circle
I haven't changed anyone's opinion in
3362 Posts
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Posted: Feb 23, 2012 12:55pm
I would not buy the $45 knockoff of the $500 meteor effect. Either pay the price for the original or do something else.
The quandary for me comes when the "knockoff" is actually superior in either workmanship, material, or improving the original effect. Must I buy an INFERIOR product, just because it was first on the market?
Jim
I need to learn humility - then I will be perfect!
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bsears
Inner circle
1006 Posts
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Posted: Feb 26, 2012 1:50pm
Good points Mr Mystoffelees! Further, what if someone "knocks off" a close up version of an effect by making it larger for stage? Or changes the method? Or IMPROVES the method? Or makes it more reliable? I think each case has to be taken individually, but I do tend to lean towards allowing creators to change/build upon previous works without jumping immediately to calling it a "knock off." And I do think there is A TON of hypocrisy in the magic community on this issue.
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Phil The Cop
New user
Croton-on-Hudson, NY
23 Posts
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Posted: Feb 26, 2012 3:17pm
Knockoffs are usually not as great (especially the china magic stuff.......sorry china). It is frustrating to me that many effects are well above the 500 dollar mark nowadays (like the Pain Game, Quantum Bender etc). I understand and appreciate the fact that I'm buying the secret as well as a higher quality prop, but I am in no way a millionaire lol. I'd rather save my money, buy the original, support the artist, and keep knock off companies out of the loop where they belong. A lot of people purchase knock offs out of curiosity and wanting to know how a trick works. You know deep down that a 500 dollar trick can't possibly be 45 dollars, so why buy it ? Curiousity. It's a shame that artists must raise prices to battle exposure and ward off knock offs. Just a shame ...
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Stucky
Special user
Still not banned after
820 Posts
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Posted: Mar 4, 2012 1:33pm
Magicians are still human. Humans are silly.
Official Thread Killer
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lunatik
Inner circle
Date me before I become famous!
2356 Posts
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Posted: Mar 4, 2012 1:58pm
What about James Clark? He was on a crusade against pirates yet releasing items that were 99% based on another's work
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
Date me before I become famous!
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Andrew Zuber
Inner circle
Manhattan Beach, CA
2406 Posts
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 11:26pm
Was James the one trying to release his own version of QB?
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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HCM
New user
50 Posts
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Posted: Mar 25, 2012 10:55am
Quote:
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On 2012-02-23 10:14, mmreed wrote:
But like I said - it happens all the time in business - its not something that can be avoided without costly legal protection.
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With magic, there is really no protection that can be had with any amount of money, unless you patent your method. I have been involved in magic for over 20 years. I was always taught to carry on the tradition of respecting others as I would in everyday life. That respect implies something above the laws. Even though it's legal to rip off a magic effect, that doesn't mean it's "okay". When I got involved with magic, it was at the tail end of a golden age. The younger generation may never understand magic as it once was. I find it disturbing, but times change and there isn't much we can do about it unless people turn to their morals when making a decision on what to buy.
Joel Broock
High Caliber Magic, LLC
www.hcmagic.com
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