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DavidGold
New user
76 Posts
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Posted: Feb 16, 2012 7:41pm
So I finished reading The Magician and the Cardsharp yesterday and I have to say I really enjoyed the book, and of course after all the talk about the Kennedy deal I am super enthusiastic about starting to learn the deal, I have always kind of put it off beacuse the deal comes with so much baggage (finger conditioning ect)altough I don't think that will be to big a problem considering I have been a rock climber for about 5 years  . So I payed up for Revalation (2008) and am looking forward to the book getting here but I had a couple of questions on the deal in the meantime. First is I heard that the deal uses a weird grip and I was wondering if this is true. Second in my experience with center deals the first 6 months of practice make you feel like a kid picking up a deck of cards for the first time and I was wondering if that is also true with this deal. Lastly I have strong fingers but the book really hyped up the finger strength requierment to do the deal and I was wondering if you really do need that much strength for the deal. An answer to one or all of the questions would be much appreciated.
Respectfully
David
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iamslow
Inner circle
Proffessional Slacker
1816 Posts
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Posted: Feb 16, 2012 7:46pm
If you're a rock climber, you have way more than enough finger strength...
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
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cartouche7
New user
70 Posts
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Posted: Feb 16, 2012 8:28pm
The grip is not weird at all. You have the deck beveled with four finger at the right side. You need just enough strength for squeezing the bottom half of the deck. But you have to know that this technique is not good for cheating.
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13321 Posts
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Posted: Feb 16, 2012 9:10pm
There is more than one way to skin a cat. You could for example make something up and write a book or would that be cheating.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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AMcD
Inner circle
Bye!
1886 Posts
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Posted: Feb 16, 2012 9:29pm
What I like with the Kennedy CD, is the look of the deck after the deal... (no way someone figures out something has happened, lol).
www.arnoldmcdonald.org
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Cagliostro
Special user
743 Posts
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Posted: Feb 16, 2012 10:03pm
The big advantage to the Kennedy Center Deal grip is you can also use it to throw a discus, which is a big advantage if you have any interest in entering the Olympics.
Also, in New York City, I noted that some of the guys who throw the pizza dough up in the air and spin it to make the pizza crust platform sometime use the Kennedy Center Deal Grip on the toss.
Other than that, if you are planning on using a center deal for a demo, there are much better and simpler ways to duplicate the deal. If you are planning on using it in a game, make sure you have a paid up life insurance policy for a large amount of money. Your beneficiaries will love and remember you for a long time.
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Cagliostro
Special user
743 Posts
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Posted: Feb 16, 2012 10:56pm
Quote:
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On 2012-02-16 21:29, AMcD wrote:
What I like with the Kennedy CD, is the look of the deck after the deal... (no way someone figures out something has happened, lol).
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I like that also. The only problem is the look of the deal DURING the deal...(no way an observant player can't figure out SOMETHING has happened). 
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Bobbycash
Loyal user
Australia
204 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 12:47am
Sorry I can't attach a direct link, but if you want to see the deal done fairly well in my opinion there is a video by Jared Kopf on YouTube shot by Jack Carpenter doing the deal. I believe it is under the title 'Jared Kopf and Kennedy'. The grip looks pretty natural IMO
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Cagliostro
Special user
743 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 1:23am
Perhaps this is the link Bobbycash is referring to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a6KoN-OLI4
It is okay for a magician move. Note he is standing up and we are looking down at the deck. Sitting down in a game and looking across the table, or from the sides while sitting, would not be so forgiving.
It is okay to learn something like this for demonstation purposes. Takes a lot of work to come up with a fair center deal for demos. The reason it survives to this day is because it was heavily promoted by Dai Vernon. Although I greatly respect Vernon for his advancement of close-up magic and his great contributions in this regard, he was not a hustler nor was he able to get the money himself. He was a magician's magician if you will, which is great. But he definitely was not an expert on real world gambling methods. He tried to learn as much about gamblers' sleight of hand "moves" as he could because in his day those moves were much better than the moves that magicians were using.
There are much better, simpler, safer and more deceptive methods to get the money in a game than the center deal. The Kennedy Center deal is really more of a demonstration move rather than a "get the money" move.
If someone is looking for a challenging demonstration move, I'm sure the Kennedy Center Deal will fit the bill.
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Bobbycash
Loyal user
Australia
204 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 1:43am
Yep, that's the video was on my phone couldn't post the link.
In all honesty, I prefer the Wimhurst technique though the video still stands as the best kennedy deal I've seen.
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AMcD
Inner circle
Bye!
1886 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 6:21am
Yes, for demonstrations, for the challenge, etc. For real play it's a different story.
The CD is one of the few moves I don't do (and I won't do, too old now). Oh, I can deal one or two for demo but it's absolutely unnatural for me. The grip, the take, the deal... Besides, it's difficult to use in actual games as procedures may make the setup impossible (I've played games where the dealer wasn't allowed to complete the cut for instance).
There are some manuscripts that worth it I think, like Wimhurst. Sampalis was supposed to release one, but I'm afraid he's as slow for writing as I am  . Jason has a cool video too.
www.arnoldmcdonald.org
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LoïcJ.
New user
France
49 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 9:06am
For a magic demo, the goal is to entertain spectators. You want to create the perception that you can do everything with cards. You can deal from everywhere, you can know any card at any position, you can win at any game, etc...
For example, the Steve Forte's demo for the tv show "hidden secret of magic" is perfect. In 5 minutes, spectators think that Steve Forte can realize anything at anytime (and he really can do ! lol)
For a magician, in my opinion, you have to show a absolute full deck control. And the center deal is perfect for that. BUT you are a magician. You can chose between a real center deal or a fake center deal...
Peronally, I don't like to do a center deal (but I like to watch some great center dealer) and I don't want to loose time with this move.
Ask you if this move is really important for you or if you just want to entertain spectators with it. Ricky Jay for his show "Ricky Jay and his 52 assistants" presents a wonderful "center deal" because he has a great story. The acting is great too.
My english is so bad, I hope it's comprehensible.
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silverking
Inner circle
4375 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 10:02am
Quote:
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On 2012-02-17 09:06, LoïcJ. wrote:
For a magic demo, the goal is to entertain spectators.........
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Which is why, for magic, you don't have to do a center deal at all.
There are a number of routines from high-profile card men that use a pseudo-center deal to great effect.
To learn a legitimate center deal in order to expose it in a magic demo may not be, (IMO) the best use of ones time.
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LoïcJ.
New user
France
49 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 10:30am
Yes. That's why I said : "BUT you are a magician. You can chose between a real center deal or a fake center deal".
He is free to learn a center deal if he has some fun with it, or it's possible to work with a fake center deal.
I agree with you. It is just a personnal choice about what he wants to learn or not and what he wants spectators to remember.
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Cagliostro
Special user
743 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 10:42am
Quote:
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On 2012-02-17 09:06, LoïcJ. wrote:
My english is so bad, I hope it's comprehensible.
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Don't worry about your English. You did a nice job, made some good points and I enjoyed your post.
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AMcD
Inner circle
Bye!
1886 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 10:44am
Also, do not forget that more and more people play cards. More and more people have some basic understanding about actual card games. Sure, the percentage of people able to detect a nicely done deuce or a correct stacking is very low but at the same time, don't hope to fool them with a grip coming from planet Mars (like for CDs in general).
It reminds me a long time ago when I saw a Magician performing a "gambling" demo, it was sort of familial meeting. In the middle of the demo one guy around the table asked the Magician "I don't know about you, but we cut the deck in our card games". Trust me, it was embarrassing, to say the very least. 2 or 3 years ago I've seen more or less the same thing happening with a french guy performing a Hold'Em demo. The guy knew apparently nothing about cuts, burn card, etc. Around the table was a former casino dealer. Another funny moment, lol.
www.arnoldmcdonald.org
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LoïcJ.
New user
France
49 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 11:20am
Quote:
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On 2012-02-17 10:42, Cagliostro wrote:
Don't worry about your English. You did a nice job, made some good points and I enjoyed your post.
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Cool ! Thank you Mister online dictionary !
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Cagliostro
Special user
743 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 1:34pm
Quote:
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On 2012-02-17 09:06, LoïcJ. wrote:
For a magic demo, the goal is to entertain spectators. You want to create the perception that you can do everything with cards. You can deal from everywhere, you can know any card at any position, you can win at any game, etc...
For example, the Steve Forte's demo for the tv show "hidden secret of magic" is perfect. In 5 minutes, spectators think that Steve Forte can realize anything at anytime... |
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That is a good example. Even though I am not a magician I would think that a magician would or should use any subterfuge necessary to create the desired effect of fooling and entertaining his audience.
For example, Steve Forte is about as skillful a card manipulator of gambling type moves that one can imagine, yet in the show mentioned above, “Hidden Secrets of Magic," Forte used a pseudo center deal rather than a real center. Even with his exceptional skill and ability, the pseudo deal was no doubt more deceptive than any real center deal that even he could do. In fact, in addition to fooling layman, I’m sure he fooled many magicians also with that deal. Further, he did not hesitate to use about three-quarters of a deck rather than a full deck for the demonstration to facilitate use of the bottom deal during that fake center deal. I might add however, that it takes considerable skill and ability to do this pseudo deal the way Forte demonstrated it.
Darwin Ortiz also has a pseudo center deal where he apparently deals the Aces from different parts of the deck. That deal is clever and very deceptive.
Generally speaking, I think a good pseudo deal is easier, more deceptive and far superior to an actual center deal when it comes to entertaining an audience.
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silverking
Inner circle
4375 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 2:09pm
A brief aside:
I've never seen a card performance (gambling or otherwise) that even comes close to the one Steve Forte gives in the "Hidden Secrets of Magic" portion of his DVD set.
From Forte's performance personality, his open and polite interaction with the specs, his ability to put across the impression he can do absolutely anything he wants to with a deck of cards, up to and including his ability to use a psuedo-center deal such that it's even more deceptive than an actual center deal........his is the finest card performance I've ever seen.
Anybody who does any sort of presentation with a deck of cards would do well by themselves to spend a few hours of repeated viewings of this Forte footage.
It's a graduate course in what a gambling demo should look like.
It's often repeated by pundits that Forte wasn't a public performer, nor was he a magician.......and although that wasn't his primary undertaking, the evidence put forth in "Hidden Secrets of Magic" is that he could have (at any time of his choosing) stepped in and immediately assumed a position at the top of any field he choose.
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LoïcJ.
New user
France
49 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 3:09pm
Quote:
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On 2012-02-17 14:09, silverking wrote:
A brief aside:
I've never seen a card performance (gambling or otherwise) that even comes close to the one Steve Forte gives in the "Hidden Secrets of Magic" portion of his DVD set.
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Have you seen the Derek Delgaudio's performance in spanish tv show ? For me, it is in the same vein of the Forte's demo. I love it. He uses same concepts to leave a feeling of absolute control.
(Cagliostro : for the joke : Derek Delgaudio is the exception which proves the rule. He uses a real center deal !)
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Piqsirpoq
Regular user
Finland
117 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 4:03pm
If you are talking about the show with Daniel Radcliffe as a guest, Derek does a pseudocenter.
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LoïcJ.
New user
France
49 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 4:38pm
I'm talking about this one : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK_O8G5V_Tc
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silverking
Inner circle
4375 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 5:32pm
I've seen the Delgaudio videos quite a few times. There's no doubt he has some serious chops.
It's completely subjective on my part, (an "IMHO" as it were)....but for what he does with a deck of cards in public performance, I simply don't think Forte has any contemporaries.
The only other performer I've seen that I think puts across a remotely similar "vibe" with a deck of cards in his hands is Jack Carpenter.
Again, these are highly subjective, personal opinions.......your millage will vary.
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LoïcJ.
New user
France
49 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 6:09pm
In my mind (It's very subjective on my part too) this demo is very similar with the Forte's demo. That's why I wanted to be sur that you know it. Now I perfectly understand your point of view.
I think Steve Forte hasn't any contemporaries too. But here, if a layman watches these two tv shows, I think it's very hard for him to clearly distinguished both.
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Cagliostro
Special user
743 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 6:16pm
Quote:
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On 2012-02-17 15:09, LoïcJ. wrote:
Derek Delgaudio is the exception which proves the rule. He uses a real center deal.
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One can certainly use a “real” center deal during a demonstration. It can be done either “real” or pseudo, they both have their pros and cons. Looking at it from the top down is a very forgiving angle, which is why it is shot from that angle. Pretty much like the Jared Kopf video above which is viewed from the same direction.
As I said, I am not a magician so this is really not of much importance to me except for my casual entertainment. Delgaudio is skillful and does nice card tricks but if he tried his center in a game, without the forgiving angles, he would definitely have to wear that blindfold so as not see the bullets coming at him. That is not a criticism of his work. He is a good magician, sees things from the eyes of a magician and performs as such, but this is strictly to wow an audience and excite magicians. I doubt that a room full of hustler would be impressed by his center deal.
For a demo, I would still say that in general a good pseudo center has much better angles than a “real” center deal, possibly more forgiving and perhaps even more deceptive. Based upon many years of experience, in game situations I cannot think of anything more useless than a center deal and have never seen a “real” hustler waste his time on this move. There are just so many far better ways to beat a game.
In my opinion, center deals are strictly for magicians, make-believe hustlers and protection gurus who like to demonstrate moves under the guise of it being the “real” work. Nothing wrong with that but it is not going to make me titillate with excitement. I would need a beautiful or exciting woman for that, but to each his own.
Thanks for sharing the link.
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Cagliostro
Special user
743 Posts
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Posted: Feb 17, 2012 7:09pm
Quote:
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On 2012-02-17 14:09, silverking wrote:
I've never seen a card performance (gambling or otherwise) that even comes close to the one Steve Forte gives in the "Hidden Secrets of Magic" portion of his DVD set.
From Forte's performance personality, his open and polite interaction with the specs, his ability to put across the impression he can do absolutely anything he wants to with a deck of cards, up to and including his ability to use a psuedo-center deal such that it's even more deceptive than an actual center deal...
It's a graduate course in what a gambling demo should look like.
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Forte certainly is a consummate artist when it comes to presenting gambling demonstration moves - crisp, fast and effortless. One of the great lessons of this video is even with his exceptional skill he is not above using clever subterfuge to achieve his objectives, re the pseudo center and using a confederate to request four sevens be culled from the deck.
That is very clever and somewhat like what John Scarne liked to do in a former era. Scarne was considered a great sleight-of-hander but also would incorporate subterfuge in his work, like duplicate cards, and it drove the magicians crazy trying to figure out some of his “sleight of hand” work. They were all looking for moves when he was not using moves and that is what fooled them.
LoïcJ. point is well taken above comparing the Forte with Delgaudio demos. We watch this material with a different eye than the layman. To him a good performance is simply a good performance. I think some of the subtle nuances are lost on most spectators.
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13321 Posts
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Posted: Feb 18, 2012 8:33am
The narrow minded fellows here who think magic can't be used in the pasteboard jungle are of limited experience. Anyone who tells you a hustler should never demonstrate his skill is wrong.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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Cagliostro
Special user
743 Posts
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Posted: Feb 18, 2012 1:21pm
Quote:
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On 2012-02-18 08:33, tommy wrote:
The narrow minded fellows here who think magic can't be used in the pasteboard jungle are of limited experience. Anyone who tells you a hustler should never demonstrate his skill is wrong.
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Once again, the voice of knowledge and experience. LOL
The comment is too cryptic and ephemeral for discussion – a “tommy” one-liner.
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cartouche7
New user
70 Posts
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Posted: Feb 18, 2012 2:41pm
I am sorry for my "idiot" question, but I don't understand how Derek Delglaudio do his final tricks (I know near nothing about magic). The deck is in order but at the beginning, the deck was washed. Please, somebody can explain that for me?
About his center deal, the break is very very large... If he can't do a "good" center deal, I don't understand why he doesn't do a pseudo center.. It's a magic show after all...
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AMcD
Inner circle
Bye!
1886 Posts
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Posted: Feb 18, 2012 4:07pm
I find this video nice but the bottom deals are so-so and the center deal has a huge break (plus he misses one card). Zarrows are not great too.
IMHO, I think Derek is skilled and that routine is pretty, but he's far, very far from Mr Steve Forte.
@cartouche,
It's pretty obvious how he did. Ask yourself why so many blinds. Another tip, HCDS .
www.arnoldmcdonald.org
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