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Blueboy

Regular user
But I don't steal to fund my habit
200 Posts
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Posted: Mar 7, 2012 8:18pm
Look at this video and in particular the segment starting at 1:40, it is basically saying that Tarot readers and Palm Readers take advantage of the gullible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xu2cUAVlr8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Utterly amazing that some people can watch this and not pick up on what was said by Paul Zenon.
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Tony Iacoviello

Eternal Order
Gone Fishing
11637 Posts
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Posted: Mar 7, 2012 9:30pm
He is just another person trying to exploit others for his own personal gain.
Tony
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Slim King

Eternal Order
Orlando
13029 Posts
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Posted: Mar 7, 2012 10:01pm
Build a Straw Man... tell everyone it is evil... and then tear it down...ROTFLMAO... So a Magician taught him how Psychics did it? Really?
Reminds me of a guy who said Dowsing was fake... showed everyone how he thought it was done... they tried it... and when they failed he said... See, I told you it was Fake... and then left with his lecture fee... 
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS
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tboehnlein

Inner circle
ohio
1689 Posts
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Posted: Mar 7, 2012 11:09pm
"He is just another person trying to exploit others for his own personal gain." But isn't that what everyone here does,rather your exploiting their belief system, their willingness to be entertained or where their sense of wonder may be. When you deal in a field where absolutes are not black and white you must accept the grey. You must accept the direction others take.
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Slim King

Eternal Order
Orlando
13029 Posts
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Posted: Mar 8, 2012 12:08am
Debunking the debunker of the Psychic Minded.... Tony is good at that!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS
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Tony Iacoviello

Eternal Order
Gone Fishing
11637 Posts
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Posted: Mar 8, 2012 12:57am
When people act unkind towards each other, insult those they don't know, and belittle what the don't understand or agree with, no I don't have to accept it. I have to recognize it for what it is, but never accept it.
What I can say is that I don't exploit or take advantage of anyone in what I do. Those who say otherwise are ignorant of my work.
By saying what I'm saying here, I am standing up for myself and others who do similar work. People can believe and say what they will, that Is their right, but their rights end where the next person's begin. Also, my post is not here to bring self promotion to myself, make headlines, or rekindle a failed career. Something to think about when you read articles like the one mentioned above.
Nor did I start this thread, trying to cause trouble yet again in this forum. I just replied stating my opinion of what was offered here, and stood up for myself in the process.
I am a palm and tarot reader, and I have nothing to be ashamed of or hide.
Tony Iacoviello
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MDantes

Inner circle
New Orleans
1199 Posts
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Posted: Mar 8, 2012 1:20am
Eye see it like Tony here.
Charlatans took 'psychic' and exploited it...
Not the other way around.
Wether or not you are aware of that is irrelevant.
It is how it is.
For the record, "bad fortune tellers" are not the only thing taking advantage of people...
Eye am sure you see that though...
"Are you there ?" She asked...
...
" I have always been. " He whispered...
S.A.N.C.T.U.M Chapter 18
Member 17
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David Numen

Inner circle
1435 Posts
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Posted: Mar 8, 2012 4:44am
I have no doubt that there are "fake" psychics who do exploit the gullible but then there are, sadly, such individuals in every single walk of life be it business, medicine, politics, religion, whatever. Certainly it would be odd if the psychic field was the ONLY field in the world that didn't have charlatans of some kind. Doesn't mean they are ALL charlatans - after all one priest abusing kids doesn't make all priests deviants.
All I can do is speak for myself and likeminded people such as Tony. We tell people exactly what we are gonna do, we do it exactly as we say we are gonna do it, the people walk away happy. That's the ideal and thankfully the common outcome.
I just think there are bigger issues. I am struck by a couple of beer commercials on TV that suggest drinking their product is an action that can only result in instant parties and goodtimes. Deodarant adverts that suggest using their product will make people irrestibly attractive to the opposite sex. Politicians sending citizens to war for dubious reasons. Banks swallowing money left right and centre. Fighting against such things - if people feel the need to fight - would be noble and worthwhile. Suggesting psychics are all fakes always comes across as less than noble and more about self-promotion. Hey, we all need self-promotion so nothing against that per se I just feel this particular route is the lowest in our art.
New book "Phone Home: Confessions of a Telephone Reader" available from Lybrary.com. Neal Scryer, Richard Webster, Millard Longman and Jerome Finley love it - maybe you will too!
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Jon_Thompson

Inner circle
Darkest Cheshire
2106 Posts
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Posted: Mar 8, 2012 5:32am
Well, that's half an hour I won't get back after clicking video after video. I could study these techniques all day. Fake, fraud or real, I love 'em! There's lots to be learned from them.
And then I found this: Sally Morgan making a real mess of things live on BBC radio www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNQtjepLlQQ What do they say about stopping digging when in a hole?
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Blueboy

Regular user
But I don't steal to fund my habit
200 Posts
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Posted: Mar 8, 2012 6:35am
What's Sally Morgan got to do with paul Zenon calling all Tarot readers and Palm readers fraudulent?
Well I see I am being branded a trouble maker, cool, I would have thought Paul Zenon and his "pals" were the troublemakers, but yes remember where we are.
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IAIN

Inner circle
england
8324 Posts
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Posted: Mar 8, 2012 7:18am
Quote:
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On 2012-03-08 00:57, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
When people act unkind towards each other, insult those they don't know, and belittle what the don't understand or agree with, no I don't have to accept it. I have to recognize it for what it is, but never accept it.
What I can say is that I don't exploit or take advantage of anyone in what I do. Those who say otherwise are ignorant of my work.
By saying what I'm saying here, I am standing up for myself and others who do similar work. People can believe and say what they will, that Is their right, but their rights end where the next person's begin. Also, my post is not here to bring self promotion to myself, make headlines, or rekindle a failed career. Something to think about when you read articles like the one mentioned above.
Nor did I start this thread, trying to cause trouble yet again in this forum. I just replied stating my opinion of what was offered here, and stood up for myself in the process.
I am a palm and tarot reader, and I have nothing to be ashamed of or hide.
Tony Iacoviello
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100% with Tony on this...
by the way, I know of a doctor who slept with a couple of his patients... so therefore all doctors do exactly the same...
mentalism | readings | pendulums | imaginatory shennanigans | all reviewed and featured in Jheff's Marketplace of the Mind's Top purchases
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kinesis

Inner circle
Scotland, surrounded by
2431 Posts
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Posted: Mar 8, 2012 7:48am
Quote:
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On 2012-03-08 00:57, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
When people act unkind towards each other, insult those they don't know, and belittle what the don't understand or agree with, no I don't have to accept it. I have to recognize it for what it is, but never accept it.
What I can say is that I don't exploit or take advantage of anyone in what I do. Those who say otherwise are ignorant of my work.
By saying what I'm saying here, I am standing up for myself and others who do similar work. People can believe and say what they will, that Is their right, but their rights end where the next person's begin. Also, my post is not here to bring self promotion to myself, make headlines, or rekindle a failed career. Something to think about when you read articles like the one mentioned above.
Nor did I start this thread, trying to cause trouble yet again in this forum. I just replied stating my opinion of what was offered here, and stood up for myself in the process.
I am a palm and tarot reader, and I have nothing to be ashamed of or hide.
Tony Iacoviello
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Spot on Tony!
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein
www.derekheron.com
VISIT MY FACEBOOK PAGE
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Mind Guerrilla

Inner circle
Queens, NY
1152 Posts
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Posted: Mar 8, 2012 9:11am
Quote:
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On 2012-03-08 04:44, David Numen wrote:
I have no doubt that there are "fake" psychics who do exploit the gullible but then there are, sadly, such individuals in every single walk of life be it business, medicine, politics, religion, whatever. Certainly it would be odd if the psychic field was the ONLY field in the world that didn't have charlatans of some kind. Doesn't mean they are ALL charlatans
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Exactly! And just because Paul Zenon never explicitly says he's referring to ALL psychics, we know that's what he was THINKING. I believe that's called "being psychic." Check and mate, Mr. Zenon.
Quote:
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I just think there are bigger issues. I am struck by a couple of beer commercials on TV that suggest drinking their product is an action that can only result in instant parties and goodtimes. Deodarant adverts that suggest using their product will make people irrestibly attractive to the opposite sex. Politicians sending citizens to war for dubious reasons. Banks swallowing money left right and centre. Fighting against such things - if people feel the need to fight - would be noble and worthwhile.
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Spot on! It's sad we live in a world where people are so gullible. It's doubly sad that some feel the only way to enlighten the public is to "inform them with the truth." The smoking gun here is that Mr. Zenon has chosen only to expose fakes in a field he's familiar with. Very suspicious. As is his claim that he doesn't make any money from being a skeptic. To this, I can only say, "Liar!"
Quote:
| Suggesting psychics are all fakes always comes across as less than noble and more about self-promotion. Hey, we all need self-promotion so nothing against that per se I just feel this particular route is the lowest in our art.
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I couldn't agree more. Trying to educate people is much lower than, say, telling a widow you're in contact with her dead poodle.
I have three words for Mr. Zenon: HOW DARE YOU.
The next thing you know, Mr. Z will be saying (explicitly or implicitly) that all psychic surgeons are frauds just because SOME of them may have been exposed for using trickery on occasion.
I may be expensive but when I perform psychic surgery, I give my clients something that no skeptic can. I give them HOPE. Who can put a price on that? And who the hell does Paul Zenon or anyone else think they are that they can judge me?
http://www.meetup.com/Mentalism/
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solarzar

New user
Solarzar
71 Posts
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Posted: Mar 8, 2012 11:08am
Quote:
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On 2012-03-08 00:57, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
When people act unkind towards each other, insult those they don't know, and belittle what the don't understand or agree with, no I don't have to accept it. I have to recognize it for what it is, but never accept it.
What I can say is that I don't exploit or take advantage of anyone in what I do. Those who say otherwise are ignorant of my work.
By saying what I'm saying here, I am standing up for myself and others who do similar work. People can believe and say what they will, that Is their right, but their rights end where the next person's begin. Also, my post is not here to bring self promotion to myself, make headlines, or rekindle a failed career. Something to think about when you read articles like the one mentioned above.
Nor did I start this thread, trying to cause trouble yet again in this forum. I just replied stating my opinion of what was offered here, and stood up for myself in the process.
I am a palm and tarot reader, and I have nothing to be ashamed of or hide.
Tony Iacoviello
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Clear, concise and on point. Thank you Tony for expressing this so well.
Frauds choose an specialty to use for their fraud, the specialty does not make a fraud.
Like you, Tony, I read palms and tarot. I also do numeroloty and astrology. I've never taken advantage of a person, mislead someone on a health or financial transaction, or directed anyone to give me their last dollar to clear away the evil surrounding their money. None of the readers/psychics that I've worked with would do that either. But the frauds do exist, they are not just not the norm they are the exception.
Just my thoughts, Solarzar
Solarzar
The Magic is within us!
www.Magic4Life.com
www.Solarzar.net
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tboehnlein

Inner circle
ohio
1689 Posts
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Posted: Mar 8, 2012 12:54pm
OK I do not know if it was I or another post that ruffled the feathers here, but let me attempt to clarify my earlier statement. As a performer or practitioner of the mystery arts we operate in the grey, we all have different views & value systems of what fits us and is appropriate to present. We all have various views of what is legitimate and what is fraud, so working in this field we must identify that we will run into those that we do not agree with. I am a performing mentalist, do I believe anyone can read my mind or anyone else's(no way), do I believe a tarot is going to allow you to give me anything other than an entertaining reading (also no way)& MG sorry I will decry your psychic healing if all your selling is hope if that is the case then place yourself along side the Benny Hinns of the world.You see there will always be skeptics and nay sayers in this world. PZ has the right to speak his mind if it is for nothing more than his own profit so be it as much as anyone here has the right to speak against my views and points.
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Jim-Callahan

V.I.P.
5018 Posts
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Posted: Mar 8, 2012 1:04pm
What gets me and mayhap for all time will are the skeptics who will not self educate.
They close the door to consideration of topics they think they understand.
But I see that as a benifit to performers such as myself and see no reason
to not let them be as they are.
Jim
H.o.A-X
Quote:
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On 2012-03-08 12:54, tboehnlein wrote:
OK I do not know if it was I or another post that ruffled the feathers here, but let me attempt to clarify my earlier statement. As a performer or practitioner of the mystery arts we operate in the grey, we all have different views & value systems of what fits us and is appropriate to present. We all have various views of what is legitimate and what is fraud, so working in this field we must identify that we will run into those that we do not agree with. I am a performing mentalist, do I believe anyone can read my mind or anyone else's(no way), do I believe a tarot is going to allow you to give me anything other than an entertaining reading (also no way)& MG sorry I will decry your psychic healing if all your selling is hope if that is the case then place yourself along side the Benny Hinns of the world.You see there will always be skeptics and nay sayers in this world. PZ has the right to speak his mind if it is for nothing more than his own profit so be it as much as anyone here has the right to speak against my views and points.
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So how do people respond to what you do?
“I can make Satan’s devils dance like fine gentlemen across the stage of reality”.
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tboehnlein

Inner circle
ohio
1689 Posts
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Posted: Mar 8, 2012 8:56pm
Good ? Jim. They respond in various manners some with applause. Some with stunned silence, some with laughter, some with emotion and some with disdain.
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Slim King

Eternal Order
Orlando
13029 Posts
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Posted: Mar 8, 2012 9:53pm
Debunking the debunkers has really caught on. Their straw men and dogmatic close mindedness has made their viewpoint transparent. I'm glad the tide has turned.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS
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The great Gumbini

Inner circle
1207 Posts
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Posted: Mar 9, 2012 12:45am
Palm Reading is real. Tarot cards are real. Magic is real. Mentalism is real. Life? Just an illusion! Be right back---E.T. just knocked probably needs my phone again.......
Good magic to all,
Eric
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tboehnlein

Inner circle
ohio
1689 Posts
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Posted: Mar 9, 2012 9:27am
"Debunking the debunkers has really caught on. Their straw men and dogmatic close mindedness has made their viewpoint transparent. I'm glad the tide has turned."
You really believe this?
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Slim King

Eternal Order
Orlando
13029 Posts
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Posted: Mar 9, 2012 12:07pm
100%. PSEUDO-SKEPTICS have bilked close minded followers out of 10's of millions In donations to Fake Skeptic Groups. The coin has two side.. Fate Magazine exposed the skeptics back in the 80's... They play the same game now.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS
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Jon_Thompson

Inner circle
Darkest Cheshire
2106 Posts
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Posted: Mar 9, 2012 12:24pm
I'm probably going to regret this, but what the heck is a pseudo-sceptic when it's at home? Is it just a lazy term of abuse or is there a real definition?
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Mind Guerrilla

Inner circle
Queens, NY
1152 Posts
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Posted: Mar 9, 2012 12:37pm
Quote:
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On 2012-03-08 12:54, tboehnlein wrote:
MG sorry I will decry your psychic healing if all your selling is hope if that is the case then place yourself along side the Benny Hinns of the world.
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I don't only sell hope. I also sell Miracle Salve and slivers of wood from the "true" cross.
I'll take your remark as a compliment. I always liked the part where Benny would hit the little old bald man on the head and also those chase scenes where everyone would run around real fast to that catchy music.
http://www.meetup.com/Mentalism/
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Simon (Ted) Edwards

Inner circle
London
1323 Posts
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Posted: Mar 9, 2012 12:48pm
Quote:
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On 2012-03-09 12:24, Jon_Thompson wrote:
I'm probably going to regret this, but what the heck is a pseudo-sceptic when it's at home? Is it just a lazy term of abuse or is there a real definition?
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My guess is that it's someone who is either not sceptical or who is but doesn't care much about it. My understanding is that these people go around somehow scamming real sceptics. It's all very complicated and verging on the conspiracy theory, if you ask me.
T.
The Fifth Column Home of the MK-MOD: ESP Test Cards
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mastermindreader

V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
6071 Posts
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Posted: Mar 9, 2012 1:15pm
A true skeptic is skeptical of everything, including his own skepticism. A pseudo-skeptic is selectively skeptical and accepts his own preconceptions as fact.
I am skeptical of my own definition, so don't read too much into it.
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Jon_Thompson

Inner circle
Darkest Cheshire
2106 Posts
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Posted: Mar 9, 2012 3:49pm
Quote:
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On 2012-03-09 13:15, mastermindreader wrote:
A true skeptic is skeptical of everything, including his own skepticism. A pseudo-skeptic is selectively skeptical and accepts his own preconceptions as fact.
I am skeptical of my own definition, so don't read too much into it.
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If you're right, though, I think your definition would it sit comfortably between full scepticism and full belief.
Posted: Mar 10, 2012 5:08am
To say nothing of crypto-scepticism!
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Mind Guerrilla

Inner circle
Queens, NY
1152 Posts
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Posted: Mar 10, 2012 8:14am
Think of it this way:
If a skeptic says, "I'm a skeptic," it means he's really NOT a skeptic because he is not being skeptical about his skepticism. If, on the other hand, a skeptic says, "I doubt I'm a skeptic," then he really is a skeptic because he's being skeptical about his skepticism.
If a debunker is debunked, he may be a pseudo skeptic which may lead one to believe the debunked debunker is really a believer- a pself-hating psychic, I psuppose.
Psimple!
I'm glad this thread hasn't deteriorated into meaningless jibber-jabber.
http://www.meetup.com/Mentalism/
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Davit Sicseek

Inner circle
1787 Posts
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Posted: Mar 10, 2012 8:45am
You guys are mixing the philosophical notion of scepticism - of which there are several types - with the the type of investigative scepticism practiced by the likes of Randi or Shermer.
If you want to be a radical skeptic in the philisophical sense of the word you may as well give up thinking, discussion and any notion of truth - or what is 'real'. You can't be sure of any of it - apart from maybe the existence of yourself.
All this criticism of sceptics is a real diversionary tactic used by woo-woo peddlers. It effectively shuts down any form of meaningful debate.
If someone is simply sceptical of the existence of ghosts, points to the lack of evidence for ghosts, how there are many explanations that can explain away the anecdotal evidence for their existence - it is a very weak retort of the pro-ghost movement to simply say - ah he's not a true sceptic, because he isn't practising radical scepticism by questioning the basic assumptions that virtually all humans are agreed upon. We don't see many people questioning the reality of a fast moving bus by stepping in front of it after all.
Hopefully this line of criticism from the anti-sceptic camp can now be seen to be as disingenuous as it is.
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
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CarlZen

Special user
599 Posts
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Posted: Mar 10, 2012 9:09am
Well said Davit.
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mastermindreader

V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
6071 Posts
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Posted: Mar 10, 2012 10:42am
Quote:
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On 2012-03-10 08:45, Davit Sicseek wrote:
Hopefully this line of criticism from the anti-sceptic camp can now be seen to be as disingenuous as it is.
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I'm skeptical of the notion that you took my earlier definition seriously.
Although referring to an entire group as "peddlers of woo" does indicate certain preconceived notions.
Good thoughts,
Bob
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