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rmann
New user
Milton VT and a forum newbie with only
86 Posts
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Posted: Mar 9, 2012 9:31pm
Hi! Just wondering...I bought the Original King of Hearts, standard size, from Dock Haley awhile ago. I love the effect and carry it with me to use outside of the walls of the church. I've enhanced it somewhat with a routine involving a deck of cards with a similar back that I found. The question I have is this...has anyone tried using the jumbo or stage size version IN a church? How did that work out? I have tended to avoid using cards inside church because I know some people are sensitive about it.
BTW...I am a senior pastor and generally use Gospel Magic for children's sermons and such. I have done the 'Soldiers Bible' routine which was received well. Strictly speaking it is not a magic effect but it does use playing cards.
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Ray
"...to Him who alone does great wonders, His love endures forever." Ps 136:4
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curtnelson
Regular user
I found Waldo hiding behind one of my
107 Posts
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 11:00am
I think it totally depends on your church. I'm the Children's Ministry Pastor at a church in Corvallis that has lots of young families, lots of engineers and professors (from HP and Oregon State University), and they never have a problem with cards or any other kind of magic. In fact, a big part of them hiring me was that I could use magic to illustrate my lessons. But previously I was at a church with an older constituency and they didn't look on magic-illustrated Bible lessons or anything with cards as openly. So you kind of have to know your own church and decide for yourself.
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rmann
New user
Milton VT and a forum newbie with only
86 Posts
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 10:36pm
@curtnelson Thanks for the input. Every church is unique and it takes some time and discernment to be able to gauge reactions. It is interesting...that is one of the strengths of being in a church for awhile, versus performing in a different place each time. Might be a worthy topic for discussion...how to function long term in a single place without it becoming stale.
Blessings,
Ray
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Ray
"...to Him who alone does great wonders, His love endures forever." Ps 136:4
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REV BILL
Special user
Glen Burnie Maryland
742 Posts
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Posted: Mar 30, 2012 8:36am
What I do is this. These are playing cards. You don't normally see these in church but I have them to illustrate something important. The 3 cards are for a gambling game that people play called"3 Card Monte". ( I then explain the premise of the game.)You know people take chances all the time. That's why you hear the saying Life is a gamble. People buy insurance policies because life is uncertain.(I bring out Dock Haley's Assurance Policy).I then show the cards and have them pick what they think is the King of Hearts.Then reveal you need to have the real King of Kings rule in your heart and show the Jesus card. Finally open the Assurance policy to reveal Jesus and talk about life's uncertainties will happen but you need to have the assurance of the real King of Hearts ruling in your heart. Then tell about salvation.
Specializing in Family Entertainment,Gospel,Comedy and Educational programs for over 30 years.(Order of Merlin)
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rmann
New user
Milton VT and a forum newbie with only
86 Posts
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Posted: Mar 30, 2012 9:54am
Rev. Bill...thanks! Sounds like a good routine. Those two go together very well. I don't have Dock Haley's "Eternal Life Assurance Policy", but that one should go on my wish list.
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Ray
"...to Him who alone does great wonders, His love endures forever." Ps 136:4
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rmann
New user
Milton VT and a forum newbie with only
86 Posts
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Posted: Mar 30, 2012 9:57am
Rev Bill...should have asked in the previous post...what size cards do you use in that effect? Standard, Jumbo or Stage? It just seems to me that one of the larger sizes would play better unless the audience was sitting within ten feet or so. When I do the Soldiers Bible I use a deck of Jumbo cards and that seems to work well.
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Ray
"...to Him who alone does great wonders, His love endures forever." Ps 136:4
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GaryLee
Loyal user
276 Posts
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Posted: Mar 30, 2012 10:48am
The best advice I can give you is STOP using magic tricks when preaching a sermon. Save the tricks for childrens groups, VBS, or Friday Night Fun Nights. Why do you perform magic tricks in your sermon? One of the biggest problems Christianity faces in our churches today is Pastor's who have turned the church into a circus. It's all about what attracts people to the church rather than preaching the whole truth.
I see this happening in many churches, and our children are spiritually unnourished because they get the watered down gospel, and a whole lot of entertainment, when what they need is discipleship and training, which only comes from hearing and knowing the Word of God.
Once a gospel magician is willing to be honest with themselves, they will admit that they perform magic because they like it. They like how people respond to them when they perform magic. It gives them a sense of accomplishment. They would like to think they do it because God called them to do it, or because they believe it enhances the gospel messages, and makes it more memorable. They will even compare object lessons to magic tricks as a defense in using tricks in their sermons.
I personally believe it's wrong to use magic tricks or any other form of entertainment while preaching a sermon. Most sermons in churches today only last 15-20 minutes these days. After the half hour of worship singing, or listening to the worship band, collecting the tithes, talking about upcoming events, etc, there is usually only enough time for a 15 minute sermon. To take that time and dilute it with a magic trick, or several of them does NOT help a child remember the scripture more. It does not help them to understand it easier. It does absolutely nothing but entertain them. They WILL remember the trick, if it was performed well, but the message will always be secondary. I would like to see just one gospel trick that will actually light up a piece of scripture more than what the Holy Spirit can do.
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REV BILL
Special user
Glen Burnie Maryland
742 Posts
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Posted: Mar 30, 2012 7:16pm
To anwser Bro. rmann, I use the jumbo size cards.
Specializing in Family Entertainment,Gospel,Comedy and Educational programs for over 30 years.(Order of Merlin)
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revmike
Special user
Birdsboro, PA
645 Posts
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Posted: Mar 30, 2012 9:34pm
Gary Lee,
I don't think you read rmann's post correctly. He never said he used it in his "Sermon" but in his Children's sermon's, i.e. messages.
As a pastor myself, I do a Children's Message virtually every week. Approximately 5-6 times a year I will incorporate a magic effect within the context of my messages to the children. I intentionally only do it a few times a year because it is important to me for the children to view me first and foremost as pastor, not magician, but they all know I also do many, many magic shows throughout the year.
I have used magic twice in the context of "the" sermon over the last 8 years, and it was only a piece of the sermon to illustrate a point, much as we many times use stories.
Peace and blessings,
Mike
The magic is not in our sleights and illusions, but instead in our ability to bring love and joy.
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GaryLee
Loyal user
276 Posts
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Posted: Mar 31, 2012 11:26am
Sermon, children's sermon, both are sermons, and I stand by what I said. Unlike you, who says you use it once in a while, generally using it for children's sermons sounds like a lot more, and really not necessary. I'm against it because I've seen the results of entertaining our children during sermons. The Pastor teaches about Noah's ark using a gospel magic prop. It takes 7-10 to present. In the meantime, the children once again hear the famous story of Noah's Ark, and with a stunning magic trick too. They walk away talking about the magic and not the sermon. The sermon was weak to start off with. How many times does a child need to hear about Noah's Ark? The messages I've heard Pastor's preach to children using magic has been weak, but the magic pretty strong. NOT once have I seen the message be presented as more important than the trick.
Sure, there maybe some exceptions out there, but they are not pastor's, leaders of a congregation leading their flock away from God's message to more of an entertainment center to encourage church growth, and keep children interrested in coming to church. Those of us who have studied in the area of why children are leaving the churches in their early teens have discovered part of it is because they find church to be too much about entertainment, and they don't get spiritually fed. Lack of discipleship, lack of men to lead of youth by example. The read the Bible and discover they are part of a bunch of hyprocrites.
It's well known how lacking our children are in discipleship. Just because it's a children's service doesn't necessary mean it's alright or spiritually benificial to feel a need to entertain them while trying to minister to them. There's lots of times to entertain them, why do we have to entertain them during service as well? Do we lack that much faith in the power of the Holy Spirit?" Or, do we actually believe we have something to do with the conversion of a person?
The fact is, we use magic because WE want to, not because it helps with the message. We lack in spiritual discerment, and don't trust God completely. We actually believe we know better than God, and make our own decisions on how we should minister to our children instead of the biblical approach.
I'm not against gospel magic when used appropriately, but I am against it and any other form of entertainment during a sermon. For the short time there is left for a pastor to preach, I expect him to preach, not perform a magic trick.
I went to a Church in Vancouver B.C where the pastor used magic tricks to teach his youth about Jesus during his youth sermons. It was like he bought a gospel trick from Dock Haley, opened it up, studied and memorized the patter and performance that came with it, and performed it as a sermon. Every week, he had another gospel magic prop, and would present it just as it came. His sermons were the patters that came with the gospel props. Jesus In The Tomb. Jesus and The Thiefs, David In the Lions Den, Noah's Ark, etc. No discipleship was ever invested into those youth, and the pastor will be accountable for that, and all those he mislead. Pastoring a church is a very serious calling, that takes serious care and dedication to God's Word, not learning cool new magic tricks to impress the kids with. There are so many ways to minister to our children that magic is just a crutch and an excuse for a Pastor who does not trust in God as much as he should.
This is how I feel, and not necessary God speaking to me. But, regardless, it's an opinion that several of us have as we look to reach our youth in a more Gospel orienteddirected way.
I never seen rmann preach so I do not include him in in my list. I get tingly inside whenever I hear a preacher saying they perform gospel magic in their sermons. I've seen how bad it can get, and because most gospel magicians won't admit to performing magic because they simply love performing it, and they do what they do because they like performing magic, I take what a gospel magician says with a grain of salt. Too many of them will argue in defense of using magic tricks in their sermons, but not so much when it comes to explaining why they have the faith in God that they say they do.
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jkvand
Special user
Johnstown, PA
643 Posts
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Posted: Apr 1, 2012 3:37pm
Gary, that is a very insightful post, and I thank you for expressing your opinion. It challenged me to really take a hard look at myself and how (and why) I present gospel magic. I do present gospel magic very regularly as part of my children's messages, and on rare occasion as part of the sermon when the trick fits to make a point. I disagree with your premise that one should never do magic as part of a sermon, but I am challenged to make sure I am doing the magic trick for the right reasons and with the right presentation, not simply to have something entertaining to show them this week. I look at magic as a gift that God has given me, and like the parable of the talents, it is a gift that is to be shared. One of the ways I share it is through using it as a spiritual teaching tool. But I do confess that there are times when I put the magic ahead of the message, and your post definitely challenged me to keep it in its proper place. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. -Jeff
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rmann
New user
Milton VT and a forum newbie with only
86 Posts
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Posted: Apr 2, 2012 3:13pm
Well, first off, thank you to RevBill for your answer. :^)
@Rev Mike, it sounds like you and I have much the same practice, except I do even fewer on average a year than you do. I think I have used magic in that format maybe three times in the last year. My wife normally takes care of the children's ministry and frankly, does a much better job than I do...even though she doesn't do Gospel Magic!
@GaryLee I have prayed about your response, looked in the Word and sought wise and Godly counsel. You are both right and wrong. As jkvand said, it never hurts to take a good hard look at what you do and why you do it. I am a bivocational churchplanter, specializing in starting new churches and revitalizing dying congregations, so I am very used to apologetics and explaining my faith and the reasons for it to people who have been in the church for years and to those who are generations removed from it. For the questions you ask, and for your concern for the Church, I thank you.
Everything we do in my church, and I mean EVERY thing, is in support of our core values...evangelization (outreach), discipleship, worship and service all in the name of Jesus Christ. If it does not support at least one of those then the church does not need to be doing it. Yes, I enjoy magic, but I am not an entertainer. Magic(illusions/object lessons/videos/drama/puppets/singing...) are used to proclaim the name of Jesus Christ, to support the mission of the church and to give the glory to the Father. Every message is Christ-centered and Bible-based and can be applied to adult or child. The kids we are dealing with never heard Noah's Ark until they came into our church, and it was not that long ago! I live and minister in the most unchurched state in the country, Vermont. Nothing means more to me than the souls of these people, and any way I can teach them about Jesus, any way I can reach out to others and draw them in, any way I bring them to the foot of the Throne, that is what I will do.
I would also like to say that ANY way Jesus is proclaimed is by definition a form of preaching; you said as much in your post. Therefore, if magic and preaching do not ever belong together, then it should also not matter what the venue is. Adult sermon, children's sermon, VBS, Children's 'fun night', street corner or birthday party. If preaching and magic do not EVER belong together, then 'Gospel Magic' is a contradiction in terms.
Now that I have posted this in public reply to your public comments, I do not want the conversation to devolve any further. If you wish to discuss the matter of the appropriateness of a preacher using Gospel Magic, I suggest we carry on the discussion via PM. This conversation is, obviously, not relevant to the original topic and should have been posted by PM to begin with.
In His service,
Ray Mann
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Ray
"...to Him who alone does great wonders, His love endures forever." Ps 136:4
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jamiedoyle
Loyal user
Colorado Springs, CO
243 Posts
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Posted: Apr 11, 2012 1:53pm
GaryLee,
You have some strong opinions and I will pray alongside of you as you seek guidance and at the same time lead your church - I can understand your passion... as a pastor, you want to do your very best for your congregation.
Jamie Doyle
jamiedoyle.com
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GaryLee
Loyal user
276 Posts
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Posted: Apr 29, 2012 9:19pm
Jamie, thank you for praying for me. I am not a Pastor, nor a leader in my church though. I am a wretched fool trying to keep my head above water.
@rmann. Thank you for taking the time to explain what you do and why you do it. Please forgive me if I included you in my rant. You're intentions are obviously Christ centered. God continue to bless your ministry.
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rmann
New user
Milton VT and a forum newbie with only
86 Posts
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Posted: Apr 29, 2012 10:46pm
@garylee Thank you for the note. We are all just the same, poor beggars who have found spiritual food and water, showing others the place to find it as well. May God continue to bless you in your walk with Him as well!
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Ray
"...to Him who alone does great wonders, His love endures forever." Ps 136:4
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Preacherman
New user
Montana, where I've facetiously added
66 Posts
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Posted: Apr 30, 2012 8:35am
Here's another question about the King of Hearts....does anyone make a deck of the cards with Jesus' face printed on it? I'd like to hand out the picture card once it has been revealed. I thought I'd seen a deck of just Jesus cards, but I've searched several magic sites (including a couple Gospel specific sites) and I've talked to my local magic shop and cannot find a source for the cards.
Just wondered if anyone else knew if/where they were available.
JD
"The right hand is, of course, the hand with the thumb to the left side." Fred Kaps
"A little magic now and then never hurts" Grandpa Munster
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rmann
New user
Milton VT and a forum newbie with only
86 Posts
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Posted: Apr 30, 2012 12:57pm
Good question JD...I have never seen a set like that. I took a quick look around and couldn't find anything either. If anyone else finds such a thing I'd be interested. I took a look at the packet I carry aroundwith me and there is absolutely no indication of who prints it, not even initials on the clipart. Another idea, maybe a quick note to Dock Haley or whoever makes the 'King of Hearts' effect would point you in the right direction. I imagine if someone is putting together an effect like that, they would have the capability to do a run of just the face of Jesus cards.
Ray
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Ray
"...to Him who alone does great wonders, His love endures forever." Ps 136:4
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rmann
New user
Milton VT and a forum newbie with only
86 Posts
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Posted: Apr 30, 2012 3:35pm
Thanks to a posting on "Gaffed and Funky" for the info, there is a place called "Card Shark" (AKA Christian Schenk) which seems like a very good source if you are willing to pay them to print a custom deck...it is expensive, though. It runs about $63 for the first deck then $35 a deck thereafter. Great stuff on that site! His custom card design app is fantastic and deserves a visit just to play with it.
http://www.card-shark.de/
Might be able to come up with something else cheaper...I'll keep looking and asking. Hopefully someone will come through on it. Like I said, it seems like a good idea for a give-away. Other than having Staples or OfficeMax print up some, can't think where else to look right now.
Ray
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Ray
"...to Him who alone does great wonders, His love endures forever." Ps 136:4
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Preacherman
New user
Montana, where I've facetiously added
66 Posts
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Posted: Apr 30, 2012 4:19pm
Thanks for looking Ray. Maybe someone will pick up the idea and run with it.
"The right hand is, of course, the hand with the thumb to the left side." Fred Kaps
"A little magic now and then never hurts" Grandpa Munster
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GaryLee
Loyal user
276 Posts
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Posted: May 1, 2012 9:27am
Someone I know uses blank faced cards and his printer. He prints a image of Jesus onto the card and then sprays it with some finisher. It looks very professional. Maybe I can get him to post a picture of one of the cards. It costs very little to make on your own. You can also talk to the people who make the Mandolin decks. I hear they will make up gaffed or gimmicked cards much cheaper than Card Shark.
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jamiedoyle
Loyal user
Colorado Springs, CO
243 Posts
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Posted: May 21, 2012 3:41pm
I love the Kind of Hearts Trick - I use the jumbo version and have used it overseas as well as here in the USA... audiences love it and are genuinely shocked by it.
I've used it as a closer with background music and a participant from the audience helping me on stage.
Jamie Doyle
jamiedoyle.com
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