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M for Magic
Special user
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658 Posts
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 9:08am
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/10/sports/a-card-counting-mix-of-bibles-blackjack-and-cash.html?_r=1
Reads more like an advertisement than journalism.
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13335 Posts
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 3:19pm
The greatest selling poker book of all time has it's roots in Objectivist philosophy. Dr Frank R Wallace penned Poker: A Guaranteed Income For Life which became the precursor to The Neo-Tech Discovery.
That, his first best seller allowed him to explore personal mysticism and develop the Objectivist oriented Neo-Tech concepts of Discipline, Thought and Control.
Even before The Discovery he taught the concepts of Discipline, Thought and Control, and revealed how through staying rational, one could extract an income from mystical people by monitoring, and using, their personal laziness and self-dishonesties.
Etc
Most here would regard the book as a joke but I like it. House games like, 21 are not something I play.
I had an interest in Chemin de Fer, Baccarat Banque and Punto Banco and some say you can count in that but interest was about cheating.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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Cagliostro
Special user
759 Posts
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 4:55pm
Quote:
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On 2012-03-12 14:30, M for Magic wrote:
Reads more like an advertisement than journalism.
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Or maybe a press release?
Evidently they make money selling their card counting teaching classes and also by selling product on their website. Nowadays, in most instances money is better made “teaching” the art of counting. It may be a case of those who can’t, teach.
The “hook” seems to be part of a team which allegedly has made a great deal of money by counting. If you are making a great deal of money by card counting, why advertise the fact and give a class where the monetary return is “chump change” in comparison to the money you can supposedly make counting.
(As a courtesy to the sensible and rational members of the BB, confrontational posts or posts designed to pollute or derail the meaning and intent of the thread, or of my posts, will not be acknowledged.)
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M for Magic
Special user
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658 Posts
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 5:03pm
It's like the old scam in the back of magazines etc...
"Send a self adressed stamped envelope and only $10 and learn how to make THOUSANDS!"
And in the mail you receive your self adressed envelope back with a photocopied sheet saying:
"Put an ad in the back of a magazine offering to tell people how to make thousands and charge them $10.00"
LOL
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NFS
Regular user
175 Posts
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 5:55pm
Quote:
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On 2012-03-12 15:19, tommy wrote:
I had an interest in Chemin de Fer, Baccarat Banque and Punto Banco and some say you can count in that but interest was about cheating.
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Not sure about the other games, but concerning card counting and Baccarat, yes and no. You'd need a true count of over 30 to begin to yield an advantage of about 0.2%. It's essentially useless as it's such a small edge for such a scarce event.
I'm not terribly excited about this film, but there's another one that is planned to release later this month that I am very excited about.
"A gambler without a system is as a ship without a compass."
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13335 Posts
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 6:06pm
In the article linked to it goes on about stuff such "Bible camp, Ben Crawford, ran a group of more than 30 religious card counters." etc, and the only thing I have seen, with regard to religion and gambling, is in the Wallace book. It was not intended or designed to pollute or derail the meaning and intent of the thread. As I said 21 is not my game. Therefore I don't see any reason to make this sort of provocative comment:
(As a courtesy to the sensible and rational members of the BB, confrontational posts or posts designed to pollute or derail the meaning and intent of the thread, or of my posts, will not be acknowledged.)
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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Cagliostro
Special user
759 Posts
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 6:17pm
Quote:
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On 2012-03-12 18:06, tommy wrote:
Therefore I don't see any reason to make this sort of provocative comment:
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(CAG’S KOOK POLICY: As a courtesy to the sensible and rational members of the BB, confrontational posts or posts designed to pollute or derail the meaning and intent of the thread, or of my posts, will not be acknowledged.)
Not directed at anyone in particular, but only to Kooks.
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13335 Posts
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 6:22pm
See what I mean?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13335 Posts
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 6:41pm
Baccarat For The Clueless
John May
Ranges across history, card counting,
analysing the shuffle, cheating, the
internet, psychology and more. For
beginners up to serious players.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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Cagliostro
Special user
759 Posts
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 6:42pm
Quote:
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On 2012-03-12 17:55, NFS wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-03-12 15:19, tommy wrote:
I had an interest in Chemin de Fer, Baccarat Banque and Punto Banco and some say you can count in that but interest was about cheating.
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Not sure about the other games, but concerning card counting and Baccarat, yes and no. You'd need a true count of over 30 to begin to yield an advantage of about 0.2%. It's essentially useless as it's such a small edge for such a scarce event. |
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From what I have seen, notable mathematicians who have commented on the subject state that Baccarat cannot be beaten with a card counting scheme. Card counting can detect changes in the percentages, as you said above, but they are so slight that they cannot be used to advantage. Evidently an edge can be had towards the bottom of the shoe, if it get down that far, but to wait for such an edge takes a very long time and then it is really not worth the effort.
Card counting can yield an edge for the Tie bet and also I believe for the Dragon Bet. A search on the internet should yield the necessary information. However, I don’t think card counting is the way to beat the Baccarat games, even in the bet of circumstances.
Quote:
| I'm not terribly excited about this film, but there's another one that is planned to release later this month that I am very excited about. |
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I am not acquainted with the film you are referring to. Are you able to elaborate?
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(CAG’S KOOK POLICY: As a courtesy to the sensible and rational members of the BB, confrontational posts or posts designed to pollute or derail the meaning and intent of the thread, or of my posts, will not be acknowledged.)
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Cagliostro
Special user
759 Posts
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 6:49pm
Quote:
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On 2012-03-12 18:41, tommy wrote:
Baccarat For The Clueless
John May
Ranges across history, card counting,
analysing the shuffle, cheating, the
internet, psychology and more. For
beginners up to serious players.
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Excellent book.
Read it many years ago and if memory serves me correctly, it had some very good information. Title may throw you off, but it is a good book. Good call on this one.
Still have a copy packed away among my many boxes of gambling books. Have to dig it out one of these days. If it is still being sold, the price is relativley cheap.
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(CAG’S KOOK POLICY: As a courtesy to the sensible and rational members of the BB, confrontational posts or posts designed to pollute or derail the meaning and intent of the thread, or of my posts, will not be acknowledged.)
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NFS
Regular user
175 Posts
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 11:53pm
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On 2012-03-12 18:42, Cagliostro wrote:
I am not acquainted with the film you are referring to. Are you able to elaborate?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKe4sgnwUK4
I've spoken to KC a number of times and this film is definitely something to look forward to for those with any interest in blackjack advantage play.
"A gambler without a system is as a ship without a compass."
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13335 Posts
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Posted: Mar 13, 2012 12:13am
It did not make sense to me that they would show their faces etc on such a film bearing in mind what they are saying but I guess all the casino's have them anyway.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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iamslow
Inner circle
Proffessional Slacker
1816 Posts
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Posted: Mar 13, 2012 1:19am
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On 2012-03-12 23:53, NFS wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-03-12 18:42, Cagliostro wrote:
I am not acquainted with the film you are referring to. Are you able to elaborate?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKe4sgnwUK4
I've spoken to KC a number of times and this film is definitely something to look forward to for those with any interest in blackjack advantage play.
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Looks like a good watch...
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
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Tony45
Veteran user
313 Posts
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Posted: Mar 13, 2012 6:17am
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On 2012-03-12 16:55, Cagliostro wrote:
If you are making a great deal of money by card counting, why advertise the fact and give a class where the monetary return is “chump change” in comparison to the money you can supposedly make counting.
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Cag, how many classes like this were advertised in the 70,s when the games were still good ? Not many I bet, lol.
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Cagliostro
Special user
759 Posts
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Posted: Mar 13, 2012 12:36pm
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On 2012-03-12 23:53, NFS wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-03-12 18:42, Cagliostro wrote:
I am not acquainted with the film you are referring to. Are you able to elaborate?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKe4sgnwUK4
I've spoken to KC a number of times and this film is definitely something to look forward to for those with any interest in blackjack advantage play.
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Thanks for the heads up on this. The movie should prove to be interesting. I still question why people making all that purported money would want to expose themselves and make a motion picture for the world to see. Well, I guess I do understand – to make money. Maybe they have reached the end of the road playing, that is, if what they say is true to begin with.
Casinos in many areas have the legal right to bar card counters as we all know. They can do this because they have the political power to get laws that favor themselves at the expense of legitimate players. Their arguments to get such laws are specious in my opinion. It is simply because they have the power to do so. I would think in all honesty they should post a sign at the door: “If you can play the game well, you can’t play.”
Traveling around like that may seem glamorous, but believe me it becomes drudgery after a while. I played the count successfully for many years, when the games were good, and it became a real chore after a while. Always looking over your shoulder, being furtive, in and out, one joint after another in an endless stream, constantly conning the floor and dealers. It really is no fun at all. It was hard work to make this “easy” money. And that was back in the 60s and 70. Nowadays you are always one step away from being barred. You have to make a lot of money to make it worthwhile, and nowadays in most instances you need a ton of money to win any money at all because you have to use big spreads and are looking at constant “heat.” Many people in surveillance can count also so you lose a lot of deception.
Quite frankly, there are much better ways to beat a BJ game, for a lot more money and with a lot less heat.  They may be able to easily nail counters nowadays, but in many respects they are complete babies for many other “things.”
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Cagliostro
Special user
759 Posts
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Posted: Mar 13, 2012 12:52pm
Quote:
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On 2012-03-13 06:17, Tony45 wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-03-12 16:55, Cagliostro wrote:
If you are making a great deal of money by card counting, why advertise the fact and give a class where the monetary return is “chump change” in comparison to the money you can supposedly make counting.
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Cag, how many classes like this were advertised in the 70,s when the games were still good ? Not many I bet, lol.
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It seems like an inverse proportion. The worse the playing conditions for counting become, the more people come out of the woodwork to teach classes and write books.
There were some non-hustler types who became good counters, but for the most part, MOST counters lost their money and could not beat the game even though many of them could count well. Frequent and large losing streaks destroy many of them, both psychologically and/or financially. Of all the people who tried to count, only a very small percentage actually could do it. And that is a fact because I was there.
Don't any on the BB take offense, but nowadays, most card counters are johnny-come-lately babies who don't really have a clue. In my opinion, if you want to fool surveillance with a count type play, you have to go beyond counting. That doesn't mean you have to cheat. You don't, but that is as far as I go.
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NFS
Regular user
175 Posts
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Posted: Mar 13, 2012 5:19pm
Quote:
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On 2012-03-13 12:36, Cagliostro wrote:
Thanks for the heads up on this. The movie should prove to be interesting. I still question why people making all that purported money would want to expose themselves and make a motion picture for the world to see. Well, I guess I do understand – to make money. Maybe they have reached the end of the road playing, that is, if what they say is true to begin with.
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As I understand it (we'll find out more when the film comes out), KC's blackjack career was exhausted and essentially over with, so he decided to go out with one last big, documented bang.
Another documentary worth watching is "The Hot Shoe". It's not very exciting but Steve Forte makes an appearance which is always nice.
"A gambler without a system is as a ship without a compass."
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Cagliostro
Special user
759 Posts
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Posted: Mar 14, 2012 6:26pm
Here is an aside to this conversation that some might want to consider.
In hustling, secrecy is of major importance - PERIOD. I know a lot of “moves” are bandied about on the internet and some think that active hustlers who play for serious money demo what they use and do on YouTube, but in the real world of hustling secrecy is of paramount importance, even today. The reason is a “real” active hustler doesn’t want his few techniques (not necessarily moves), bandied about because it can seriously hurt him if the word got out, physically or otherwise. It does not take a genius to understand this so I am not going to waste my time discussing the obvious. Now let’s compare hustling with counting.
Suppose someone, let’s call him Joe, wants to be a hustler and beat the private poker games he plays in. He decides to use a bottom deal. Let’s also suppose that he masters the bottom deal and becomes pretty good at it. Then Joe notices that there are a lot of demos on YouTube of guys dealing bottoms, there are DVD exposés of the move, two major motion pictures come out pertaining to the “hero” using a bottom deal repeatedly during the picture, and on the DVD version there is a separate section with magicians demonstrating various bottom deal techniques. The people in the game he plays talk about the film (maybe a couple of amateur magicians are sitting in), and discuss the bottom deals they saw in the film. Perhaps a couple of guys do a simulation of the bottom deal moves. Does anyone really think it would be wise for Joe to use his bottom deal, no matter how well he does it, in those particular games? Sure he could sneak it in here and there, but is it smart for him to do so repeatedly? If he did use it repeatedly, what are the chances that he would last very long doing this?
Relate the above to learning to play the count. Does anyone think 60 years after the count originally came out, and after repeated exposures through a myriad of books, DVDs, motions pictures, TV appearances, contests, card counter conventions??? and so forth, that the casino operators and surveillance do not know all they need to know about this ploy. Is this a big mystery to them? Are all these counters who are reputedly currently making hundreds of thousands of dollars really fooling everyone with their disguises and superb and clever playing techniques, especially when playing for and winning very large sums of money and being recorded on camera for playback? Are the rest of us really so fortunate because these counters are willing to share their incredibly successful techniques with us, for a price of course? Are their methods substantively different and superior to all the other exposed concepts and techniques? My only response is “What the ‘f--k.’ Be serious.”
I always try to have an open mind and admit to the possibility of almost anything, but the probability of all these claims being as stated strain credibility for all but the most naive in my (not so humble) opinion. Is it perhaps, “The stuff that dreams are made of?”
Of course, the above example is admittedly theoretical, extreme and not an exact comparison but it was done to make a point. I could of course used subtle nuanced argumentation to describe what I meant, but why use a feather to state a conclusion when a baseball bat works better?
Admittedly, I could be completely wrong on this. I recall I was wrong one time about 35 years ago, but it really wasn’t my fault. It was the other guy’s and he apologized.
Finally, I have done this and more over the years and can count and get the money as well as any card counter and better than most. (Oh! What arrogance.) Believe me, if it was really that good I would be out there hustling my butt and doing it myself.
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13335 Posts
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Posted: Mar 14, 2012 7:45pm
Does anyone here think they are anonymous?
Does anyone think it's a good idea for a professional to join the magic Café and tell evey one that he cheats casino's and so on?
In short; Is it safe?
Did you hear what happened to the Goldfish?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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Cagliostro
Special user
759 Posts
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Posted: Mar 14, 2012 8:46pm
@tommy Mar 14, 2012:
Kindly refer to Cag's Kook Policy.
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The Dowser
Special user
Canada
676 Posts
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Posted: Mar 14, 2012 10:02pm
Quote:
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On 2012-03-14 19:45, tommy wrote:
Did you hear what happened to the Goldfish?
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what happened?
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13335 Posts
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Posted: Mar 15, 2012 12:18am
He got caught, as he couldn't keep his mouth shut.
"In hustling, secrecy is of major importance – PERIOD."
and if we have told the world from here that we are hustlers,
which we have IMHO, if we are or are not hustlers, then are we not both kooks?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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The Dowser
Special user
Canada
676 Posts
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Posted: Mar 15, 2012 12:44am
Quote:
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On 2012-03-15 00:18, tommy wrote:
He got caught, as he couldn't keep his mouth shut.
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-never heard of him, any links?
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13335 Posts
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Posted: Mar 15, 2012 1:17am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX0hNmOf1_w
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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Cagliostro
Special user
759 Posts
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Posted: Mar 15, 2012 11:53am
To clarify my post of Mar 14, 2012 above, card counting and advantage play assocated with it are not considered to be cheating as affirmed by repeated court decisions in the US. There might have been a misunderstanding with some BB members on this. I believe most in the US who follow or are interested in card counting are aware of this distinction between cheating and counting/advantage play. Perhaps others who have little knowledge of the subject matter were unaware of this.
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Cagliostro
Special user
759 Posts
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Posted: Mar 15, 2012 11:58am
Quote:
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On 2012-03-15 00:18, tommy wrote:
...and if we have told the world from here that we are hustlers,
which we have IMHO, if we are or are not hustlers, then are we not both kooks?
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Really...Is that how you interpret this...
Please refer to Cag's Kook Policy and as hard as it is for you, for you own benfit,try to comprehend the posts and the Kook policy.
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13335 Posts
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 7:24pm
I think a grifter here would be wiser to lie and say he was magician or perhaps an honest card player merely interested in the subject of cheating for game protection, rather than confessing on the internet that he was low down cheat. A fellow who confesses on the internet that he is a cheat runs the risk of being identified. I am not a computer wiz kid but I think its naïve for a cheat to think he is anonymous here on the internet just because he uses a nom de plume and does not put up a picture of himself. As we all know even Arnold the Goldfish has a very good IP tracer. The fellow who says that he is an honest man, merely interested academically in the subject of cheating need not even hide his identity really but he could still if he wanted to use a nick name and not show his face. Such a fellow could declare he does not approve of cheating at all and all of that. I don't see anything cleaver about confessing here to being a cheat, I rather think it is a display of ability. Take my advice and do as you please as they say.
My hypocrisy knows no bounds
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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Cagliostro
Special user
759 Posts
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 9:08pm
@tommy re above post:
Isn't this a repeat of your Mar 12 post. Try to come up with something new. You are getting to be even more of a bore.
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13335 Posts
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 9:22pm
What like card counting?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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