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Eric the Excellent
Loyal user
Montana
221 Posts
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Posted: Mar 18, 2012 9:18pm
So, last night was St. Patrick's night and since I am trying to get some publicity for my little magic business, I figured I'd hit the streets. (We also brought along a videographer.)
It was a mad house out there, so my fellow magician and I decided to set up about two blocks away from the epicenter of the party, so we could get groups of people as they were coming and going, rather than risk being trampled.
There were many walking policemen travelling around the street in groups and we decided to let them know what we were doing, and ask permission. After getting the run-around for a bit, we were given the OK by a police sergeant to do magic, geek stuff, and even fire-eating "As long as we were not doing it for money". (Which irked me, but the sergeant was nice enough even if he was ill-informed.)
So, anyway, we set up and get three wonderful huge crowds along with some small groups of three or four people. (We could have made bank, had we actively been soliciting tips, rather than just accepting them when offered.) It was great!
And then a different group of cops walk up, and before I can even get a hello out I get, "Can't do that." I explained to the man that I had asked permission from a sergeant ahead of time but he cut me off midway, "I'm his boss. Can't do that." (Despite being a cop from out of town.)
So I ask if we can continue without the fire tricks, and he says alright, he just didn't want me, "Catching everything on fire." At that, the other officers with him spoke up (obviously jumping on the opportunity to show they agreed with their boss) "Or catching yourself on fire."
We politely agreed but that still grates on me; we were next to a concrete building, on a concrete sidewalk in front of an asphalt street, and it was snowing... how the blazes was I going to catch everything on fire?
I know that I did the smart thing by politely following orders, but the whole experience has left a bad taste in my mouth and I find myself half wishing I had argued the point.
Does anyone have advice for this kind of situation?
www.buttemagic.com
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Devious
Inner circle
CANCER SUCKS!
1694 Posts
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Posted: Mar 18, 2012 9:31pm
Eric, I'm assuming you were in Butte, Montana?
The peace officer who gave you a mandate was acting out of his jurisdiction according to your post, yes?
I believe they were mostly concerned with the fire liability issue. Here in San Diego they are very liberal
as to buskers, with the exception of fire acts. Even at nearby Seaport Village that seems to be the case.
Devious Deceptions
Chavez School of Magic Student
Head Shot
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Eric the Excellent
Loyal user
Montana
221 Posts
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Posted: Mar 18, 2012 9:35pm
Good guess! Montana it was. (The fact that it was snowing probably gave it away, eh?)
I am not sure about jurisdiction, since my town brings in extra officers from other cities during St. Patrick's Day, but I find myself skeptical that he was in fact "the boss", since it seems like he said that to end the conversation as quickly as possible.
I have heard wonderful things about busking in San Diego. (I have some relatives there, so I may make a pilgrimage sometime.)
www.buttemagic.com
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Devious
Inner circle
CANCER SUCKS!
1694 Posts
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Posted: Mar 18, 2012 9:37pm
Quote:
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I have heard wonderful things about busking in San Diego.
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Lol, did you read my "Tip Thief" post?
Devious Deceptions
Chavez School of Magic Student
Head Shot
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Eric the Excellent
Loyal user
Montana
221 Posts
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Posted: Mar 18, 2012 9:39pm
LOL. Yeah, well, "wonderful" as in "you can make big money" wonderful... if not the best of the best crowd-wise.
Does that happen a lot to you?
www.buttemagic.com
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Devious
Inner circle
CANCER SUCKS!
1694 Posts
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Posted: Mar 18, 2012 10:01pm
Just one other time besides last night.
That's what they get for heckling me right?
Devious Deceptions
Chavez School of Magic Student
Head Shot
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Ekuth
Inner circle
1105 Posts
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Posted: Mar 19, 2012 3:07pm
Eh, chalk it up to the old "liability" play; or to put it more succinctly- "pass the buck". No one wanted to take responsibility for giving you the "ok" if anything went wrong. They were covering their butts.
At least they didn't shut you down completely!
But yeah, folks are reeeeeeaaal funny about fire effects these days. One reason I don't do much, and then only flashpaper.
"Magic is found neither in the mind, nor the eye; but in the heart."
http://www.christophe-magic.webs.com
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ed rhodes
Inner circle
Rhode Island
2321 Posts
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Posted: Mar 20, 2012 11:31pm
Yeah, after the Station night club fire here in RI, you're not going to get anybody on your side with fire effects.
BTW, you may have been surrounded by concrete and it was snowing, but you yourself were NOT concrete and were not wearing concrete and I'm betting you were using gasoline for your torches.
"He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad." - Rafael Sabatini, Scaramouche
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JoeJoe
Inner circle
Myrtle Beach
1508 Posts
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Posted: Mar 20, 2012 11:51pm
I have juggled fire sticks in the past, but that was many moons ago ... I have to agree with what people here have already said, fire is just not something you can get away with these days. You can expect hassles nearly everywhere.
-JoeJoe
One of the hottest new releases of the year - Steve Fearson Presents the Amazing JoeJoe's Web Spinner!!!
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Eric the Excellent
Loyal user
Montana
221 Posts
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Posted: Mar 21, 2012 1:23pm
Yeah, I know, and it makes sense that no one would want to assume responsibility for giving me the go ahead. It still bothers me, though, since I go out of my way to be safe. I always /always/ have a fire extinguisher, fire blanket, and water on hand when I perform. I there were a fire, I would probably be the one to put it out, rather than the one who started it.
Quote:
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On 2012-03-20 23:31, ed rhodes wrote: ...
BTW, you may have been surrounded by concrete and it was snowing, but you yourself were NOT concrete and were not wearing concrete and I'm betting you were using gasoline for your torches.
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Why exactly would you bet I was using gasoline?
www.buttemagic.com
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ed rhodes
Inner circle
Rhode Island
2321 Posts
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Posted: Mar 21, 2012 10:21pm
Because that's the standard for torches. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. But you had to be using something flameable and it's not impossible that you or someone in your crowd could get hurt before you got out any of those items you had ready. (Good point having them though.)
"He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad." - Rafael Sabatini, Scaramouche
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Eric the Excellent
Loyal user
Montana
221 Posts
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Posted: Mar 21, 2012 11:11pm
Nah, I was using white-gas. It's a good deal safer than gasoline. (Another safety measure!)
Yes, it is conceivable that I could be hurt while doing this and although it is even less likely, it is still conceivable that an audience member could be. I do /see/ the opposition's point of view on this, but how can I deal with it?
www.buttemagic.com
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JoeJoe
Inner circle
Myrtle Beach
1508 Posts
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Posted: Mar 22, 2012 12:30am
I can suggest you get off the sidewalks and on to private property.
-JoeJoe
One of the hottest new releases of the year - Steve Fearson Presents the Amazing JoeJoe's Web Spinner!!!
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Eric the Excellent
Loyal user
Montana
221 Posts
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Posted: Mar 23, 2012 4:54pm
Fair enough.
I am thinking about getting in touch with the local sheriff's office to ask permission for the future, but I am not sure if I want to risk getting an "absolutely not never no how uh-uh."
www.buttemagic.com
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Police Magician
Special user
Georgia
601 Posts
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Posted: Mar 24, 2012 12:24pm
Eric, as a cop, I think the problem would be a permit as many areas make money selling permits in their area. That may be what the cops were referring too.
In the future, check local ordinances where you intend to perform and see the regulations on it. If you have a problem, you can show your permit. Ask about any ordinances pertaining to fire use as well and let them know exactly what you do with it.
Last, ask them if tips are ok for you to receive after doing a performance. This covers all ground. Make sure you have permission from any owner's of private property, in writing, if you go onto private property so you won't encounter a ticket, jail or just being thrown off.
Hope this helps.
Glenn
Glenn Hester
P.O. Box 3095
Brunswick, Ga. 31521
912-571-8071
www.policemagic.com
https://www.facebook.com/PoliceMagic
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Eric the Excellent
Loyal user
Montana
221 Posts
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Posted: Mar 24, 2012 5:34pm
Glenn, thank you for your information filled reply.
I've tried to find local ordinances but I admit to the complete ignorance of where I'd look or how I'd check. The same for buying a permit. Do you know how I could go about this?
I have contacted both the local police department and the local fire department in the past, but I have never heard back. (I think they might just be taking my emails in jest rather than seriously.) I'd push harder for an answer, but I fear that if I did I would get a "no" just so I would quit bugging them.
Thank you kindly.
www.buttemagic.com
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ed rhodes
Inner circle
Rhode Island
2321 Posts
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Posted: Mar 25, 2012 4:52am
Go down to City Hall, ask where the Bureau of Licenses is and ask them.
I'm not certain whether you should go to you local fire station of if there's a centralized department that they would answer to, either way physically go to the head of the department, no e-mails.
My City Hall in Providence gave me a license with no fee. Unfortunately, it has "at the descretion (sp) of the local police" written on it which one officer decided meant he could say "no" for no reason. Another officer later told me the license was invalid as it had to be renewed each year which the board of licenses denied when I first received the license and later when I complained about the officer. (In the first case. I was told the officer in question, a lieutenant, was "gone," presumably transferred after a number of complaints, the other officer would be "spoken to" and his lieutenant would be contacted. I had the license retyped to state "this license does not expire" just to make certain the point was clear.)
"He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad." - Rafael Sabatini, Scaramouche
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Police Magician
Special user
Georgia
601 Posts
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Posted: Mar 25, 2012 9:17am
Eric, what Ed said is good advice. If the venue is in the city limits, City Hall would be a good start. If the venue is in the county, check with the county offices on it. I am unfamiliar with their set up in your state. I know those who want to do something in our city limits have to contact City Hall and the County offices, if in the county, for permits or licenses.
I am not familiar with fire regulations in your state, so ask at the City Hall or County Offices about it as well. If they don't know, they should be able to direct you to the office you can inquire.
Most city and county governments have a website showing codes and ordinances on it to allow you to see what can and cannot be done. You might want to go online to see if your area has one of those and get familiar with the codes and laws pertaining to this.
Ed, that term of the cops having discretion on it sounds horrible. That means they can shut you down for no reason. I will say that there are some cops who go overboard with their authority just to bust someone's chops, which is wrong. Sorry to hear you encountered such a cop. They give us a black eye in this business when they overstep their bounds.
Complaints made against an officer should be investigated and they should contact you back to let you know their decision with it. When a person wants to file a complaint against an officer here, I tell them to go to the main headquarters and file a written complaint. That way, it is a matter of record. I cannot speak for other agencies, but that is how we do it here.
Glenn
Glenn Hester
P.O. Box 3095
Brunswick, Ga. 31521
912-571-8071
www.policemagic.com
https://www.facebook.com/PoliceMagic
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Jim Sparx
Inner circle
Far Out, Texas
1125 Posts
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Posted: Mar 25, 2012 10:34am
One of the great things I loved about San Francisco was the park downtown packed with tourist and buskers. This is where Harry Anderson got his start and you can do just about anything except three card monte w gambling. The park was packed with undercovers for the tourist. Also areas at Fishermans Wharf and just about anywhere except Chinatown. This was in the 70s & 80s. Don't know what its like now.
Spartacus died for your sloth
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JoeJoe
Inner circle
Myrtle Beach
1508 Posts
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Posted: Mar 25, 2012 12:23pm
If you go to City Hall, the person to talk to is the City Clerk - they will know who issues the permit. Could be the City Manager, the Bureau of Licenses, or even the Clerk themselves. But whoever it is ... the City's Clerk job is to know who and will be able to tell you. And the upside is that they are often the nicest person working for the city.
I generally don't like asking police, they always seem to know the least. If you ask 3 cops if you are allowed to perform in a city, you will most likely get three different answers - I know because I have done this. I'm not sure you would have better results with the fire department, their job is to put out fires and rescue people - not regulate street performers.
Email has always had poor results for me, addresses change and spam piles up. If you can't go in person, call.
If it were me, I would try to look up the code myself. Failing that, I would ask the City Clerk ... and if I wasn't happy with her answer, I would talk to the City Attorney.
-JoeJoe
One of the hottest new releases of the year - Steve Fearson Presents the Amazing JoeJoe's Web Spinner!!!
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hou_dini
New user
84 Posts
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Posted: Mar 25, 2012 2:31pm
Check to see if the city has a Fire Marshal. That person would/should have all the answers to anything fire related.
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ed rhodes
Inner circle
Rhode Island
2321 Posts
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Posted: Mar 25, 2012 11:22pm
Quote:
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On 2012-03-25 09:17, Police Magician wrote:
Ed, that term of the cops having discretion on it sounds horrible. That means they can shut you down for no reason. I will say that there are some cops who go overboard with their authority just to bust someone's chops, which is wrong. Sorry to hear you encountered such a cop. They give us a black eye in this business when they overstep their bounds.
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As I've said; I was stopped about five times. (Five different cops)Once was the lt. who didn't care that I had a license. I was turning "his" street into a "circus" and he "wasn't going to have it." He also considered my "passive bucket" a "direct solicitation" for funds (in direct opposition to what the License Board told me.) He said; "If you didn't have that bucket out, I might consider it." Which made no sense to me. If he was concerned about turning "his" street into a "circus," how would the bucket not being out have any effect on that? Second cop wanted to see my license... I'd left it home. I packed up since I'd entered into an agreement and hadn't kept up my part. Third time, he didn't even ask for my license, he just want to see that I wasn't directly asking for money and seemed to enjoy himself. Fourth time, he looked at the license, looked at my driver's license to verify I was the person who was entitled to hold the busker's license and then told me to continue. The last time was the officer who claimed the license was only good for a year (again, in direct opposition to what the License Board told me.) So I've had the license re-typed with "License does not expire" written on it. (Sadly, they also added; "License is not valid for Waterfire events" since Waterfire has to authorize and and all performers) I've also had my driver's license updated since I don't need him claiming that an expired license cannot be used to prove identity.
Now Chance will say I shouldn't have had to do any of that and that busking should be free to all as a form of free expression. He may be right. But I was raised to follow the rules and try to do so whenever possible. I just get annoyed when they change the rules midstream.
"He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad." - Rafael Sabatini, Scaramouche
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JoeJoe
Inner circle
Myrtle Beach
1508 Posts
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Posted: Mar 26, 2012 1:18am
Chance is right, but that doesn't make you wrong.
Speaking only for myself here, I am no more qualified to sue a city than I am to perform open heart surgery.
No disrespect intended here Ed ... but I don't think you are either. Let the singers sing, the dancers dance, and the lawyers can practice law.
-JoeJoe
One of the hottest new releases of the year - Steve Fearson Presents the Amazing JoeJoe's Web Spinner!!!
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AdamChance
Loyal user
299 Posts
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Posted: Mar 26, 2012 2:24am
Cops are scum... be glad they didn't kill you or arrest you and charge you with something.
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ed rhodes
Inner circle
Rhode Island
2321 Posts
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Posted: Mar 26, 2012 6:12am
Cops are not "scum." They're just people trying to do a miserable job as best they can. Some of them are just better at it than others.
"He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad." - Rafael Sabatini, Scaramouche
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Paddy
Inner circle
Milford OH
1345 Posts
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Posted: Mar 26, 2012 8:11am
Quote:
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On 2012-03-26 02:24, AdamChance wrote:
Cops are scum... be glad they didn't kill you or arrest you and charge you with something.
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That is pure BULL CRAP!!!! and you know it!! Cops see people at the worst times of their lives, as victims of or as commuting crimes. Yet they are almost ALWAYS polite and sincere when dealing with the public. When eveer I travel, either business or pleasure, I set up and busk. I have done this in most of the contigous 48 states plus much of Europe. When I was in places where it was against the law, a cop would always explain to me that it was illegal and why he thought the law was imposed. I always treated the officer with respect and the worst thing that ever happened was I was told to stop, which I did. ususally I'll ask "can I finish this one show and pass the hat?" Most of the time the officer says "OK but this is it." And I still make some money from that show.
if you experience varies start to look at yourself and how YOU come across to the cop, not how he comes across to you. You get back what you give them, a smark alek will suffer the consequences of being a smart alek
Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Unencumbered by the Thought Process.
http://www.Scho-Lan.com
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Police Magician
Special user
Georgia
601 Posts
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Posted: Mar 27, 2012 11:02am
Ed, Paddy, thanks for the kind words about cops. Adam may have had some problems with cops that got his mindset about them. I do know that some, as mentioned earlier, do overstep their bounds which will give people a bad impression of them. I do know that many are good and decent people as both of you have stated.
I don't apologise for anyone but myself as I have no control over other cops. I hope Adam encounters some good ones to see that not all are bad. It only takes one bad cop to have people stereotype all of us.
Glenn
Glenn Hester
P.O. Box 3095
Brunswick, Ga. 31521
912-571-8071
www.policemagic.com
https://www.facebook.com/PoliceMagic
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JoeJoe
Inner circle
Myrtle Beach
1508 Posts
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Posted: Mar 27, 2012 12:54pm
You handled that a lot better than I would have Glenn, I had to refrain myself from commenting.
-JoeJoe
One of the hottest new releases of the year - Steve Fearson Presents the Amazing JoeJoe's Web Spinner!!!
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Ekuth
Inner circle
1105 Posts
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Posted: Mar 27, 2012 4:20pm
With that kind of an attitude, Adam- it's no wonder you've had difficulties with the police.
WHEN exactly did basic respect and civility fall to the wayside?
Let me put it another way:
He has a badge, gun, handcuffs and the right to use them as well as a working knowledge of the law.
You don't.
Seems like a simple enough equation to me.
Now, on an unrelated related note:
White gas and gasoline are the same thing. The only difference is the level of petroleum refinement.
"Magic is found neither in the mind, nor the eye; but in the heart."
http://www.christophe-magic.webs.com
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Devious
Inner circle
CANCER SUCKS!
1694 Posts
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Posted: Mar 27, 2012 6:28pm
Quote:
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On 2012-03-26 02:24, AdamChance wrote:
Cops are scum... be glad they didn't kill you or arrest you and charge you with something.
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Spouting out wide sweeping generalizations during in my youth,
is one of the things, that I don't miss from those foolish days.
Devious Deceptions
Chavez School of Magic Student
Head Shot
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