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Jon-O the Great
Elite user
459 Posts
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Posted: Apr 1, 2012 8:42pm
A guy came by my booth today. Had “The Magic Guys” printed on his shirt. We talked for a short time. It seems 3 guys were a couple of aisles over, selling magic trix. The major thing they were selling was the “Fire Wallet”.
If you haven’t seen it, it’s a real leather wallet with a mechanism inside. When you open the wallet, flames jump out. Close it, open it again, the flames are gone and no trace of any burns or the mechanism. I won’t go into how it works but in researching it, I found not only many places selling it, but several You Tube performers, showing everything about it.
My purpose in mentioning it is that when you bought the wallet for $20, you got the “floating card” and your choice of one of several other items he was selling, free. The other items included a 3-chard monte, cups and balls, a stripper deck and a Svengali deck.
Frankly, the group wasn’t doing very well because the main guy, (probably early 20s) who said he did magic shows at schools, b-day parties, etc., talked so fast and did the tricks so fast, even I couldn’t understand many of his words or the tricks. But he said he made good money doing the shows.
He was selling most of his tricks, including the Svengali deck for $5. When I tried to explain the logic behind selling at least the Svengali deck for $10, his eyes kinda glazed over and we each lost interest in the other.
I did see him do the 3-card Monte. Truly a neat trick and he actually did it well. He stressed that he was only showing it to the kids as a fun trick and not for money. He started with 2 blue face cards and 1 red face card. He went thru 2-3 tricks with the cards, then wound up by turning over the 2 blue cards and saying to the kid, “Ok, of course, we’re only joking, but if asked you to tell me the color of the card I have left—if you were right, I’d have to give you $14. But if YOU were WRONG, YOU’d have to give ME $14. What color is that last card?”
Of course the kid said “Red” but when he turned the card over, on it was printed, in big letters, ”YOU OWE ME $14!! Neat trick. The dad bought the wallet and the kid took the 3-card Monte and the floating card for the free stuff.
Frankly, I think attempting to use the 3-card as the main sale item, as we do the Svengali deck wouldn’t work. But using it as the “kicker” as we do the 2-card Monte, might work well. No idea what it costs nor where to get it but I’m sure it’s cheap—after all, only 3 cards.
I can tell you “The Magic Guys” will probably not come back again to that show. The main guy said they usually work flea markets but wanted to try the gun show. A table cost $65.
They didn’t even net expenses.
Jon
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DonDriver
Inner circle
1648 Posts
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Posted: Apr 1, 2012 8:54pm
The 3 card monte they were "giving away" sounds like color monte by Emerson and West.Its not an easy effect for a kid to do.(sleight-of-hand effect)
I don't think I would want to pitch the fire wallet.Its a good effect for magicians but not a good pitch item.Just my two cents.
Thanks for the info Jon.
Don
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LeoH
Regular user
163 Posts
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Posted: Apr 2, 2012 5:27am
I don't think pitching any fire effect to kids is too smart. Most magic shops only sell fire effect to people over 18 because of liability issues.
LeoH
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Jon-O the Great
Elite user
459 Posts
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Posted: Apr 2, 2012 7:17am
In some of the You Tube demos, they said they would only sell the wallet to adults. And 'THEORETICALLY' were gonna check ID to be sure they were over 21. (I can hardly wait to DO that!) The guy did sell the wallet to the adult but the kid got the 'free' stuff.
When he gave them the 'floating card' he also gave them a spool with what seemed to be a LOT of IT. In fact, the guy seemed to spend almost as much time explaining the tricks as he did DOING the tricks. Probably one reason that group didn't do so well, moneywise. I'll guarantee I SOLD more Svengali cards at $10 than they GAVE away. (They got their cards from Robbins, so they were exactly the same cards as mine, in the same box.)
In fact, it seemed that the main guy liked DOING the tricks more than he liked to sell.
Jon
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visionquest
Regular user
140 Posts
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Posted: Apr 2, 2012 7:33am
This sounds a little bit like Will Roya's pitch structure although as far as I am aware he doesn't get involved with fire wallets. I wonder if he knows anything about this?
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Jon-O the Great
Elite user
459 Posts
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Posted: Apr 2, 2012 12:28pm
I found the wallets. $11.25, $10ea. 12 or more. That means with the "free" stuff, he had probably $12-$13 in the deal. MUCH more than I want to spend. Besides, I can sell 2 decks of cards for $20 and have LOTS less than that in the deal. So I think I'll let those guys sell their wallets and I'll stick to cards. Very impressive show, tho.
As Don says, I'm just a pitchman, not a magician!
Jon
P.S. By the way NONE of the "magicians" had heard of the Magic Café!!
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sethb
Inner circle
The Jersey Shore
2623 Posts
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Posted: Apr 2, 2012 7:38pm
As Don has said many times before, there is a big difference between a pitchman and a magician. While a Svengali pitchman does do magic tricks and must be entertaining, the entire pitch presentation is much different than a "magic show." A pitchman needs to attract and hold his own audience, and then needs to "sell" the product so that the audience buys it. The magic show audience has already paid for their tickets, and simply needs to be entertained.
These guys obviously did not get that distinction, nor did they care. They were giving away the good pitch stuff, and trying to sell something that's not really a pitch item. And I agree, besides being way to expensive for a pitch item, a fire wallet is a TERRIBLE idea. Most places will not even let you have an open flame because of the fire codes, let alone sell something like that. When I did street fairs and festivals, I always told the sponsors that I only sold cards, coins, balls and such -- nothing sharp, no fire, nothing dangerous. That usually helped to clinch the spot if I hadn't worked it before and if they had never had a "magician" before. SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC
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DonDriver
Inner circle
1648 Posts
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Posted: Apr 3, 2012 2:59pm
I have a gut feeling these guys are making ther own fire wallets and think is better than sliced bread.They couldn't buy them wholesale and sell them for $20 with the free kickers.My guess is also they are buying the kickers from a dollar tree.
Why is it only magicians come up with lame ideas for items to pitch.Once at the flea market in Vegas some guy was pitching the coin trick scotch and soda for $40.Oblivious he didn't make them himself.I don't think he sold one all week end...oh and I never saw him back again.
Don
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WillRoya
Regular user
186 Posts
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Posted: Apr 3, 2012 3:43pm
My "standard" magic pitch is Svengali deck ($10), another trick (usally a thumb tip, $10) and Float This! DVD with "gimmick" $20 or package deal - everything for $25. I have started selling d lites as an add on (sometimes) and keep a small stock of other DVDs and tricks for rehash items (hidden) to sell to return customers, vendors, etc.
I just got home from the Miami fair and also did the Florida state fair earlier this year and had at least a dozen people at each fair ask about the fire wallet. They sell it at the amusement park magic shops. Next year I will have them, I can get good ones for under $10 and sell for $30 - $40 each.
I would not normally sell an item with such small mark up % but people are ready to buy if I have them and I won't really need to pitch it.
I'll be at the Clark County fair in Logandale, NV (45 minutes north of Las Vegas) next weekend, if anyone wants to come by and say hi. About as close as a hometown fair as I will get. Not a busy fair but close to home and a good place to try new items and pitches.
PS on a side note: I have heard magicians getting away with fire effects by explaining that it is not real fire but "magic" fire.
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LeoH
Regular user
163 Posts
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Posted: Apr 3, 2012 5:39pm
If I tried the "magic fire" bit with the fire marshals around here and I would be explaining the difference to a judge.
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Kim
Elite user
405 Posts
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Posted: Apr 4, 2012 4:26pm
I agree with Don,
The three card monte trick does sound like Emerson and West's.
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Jon-O the Great
Elite user
459 Posts
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Posted: Apr 5, 2012 4:29pm
That guy demos sooooo fast. I usually try to speak and demo slowly so the prospect feels HE can do the tricks, not whiz thru 'em so they think I'm the only one who can do 'em. Maybe I'm wrong.  I NEVER sold 300 decks a day.
And yes, the 3-card monte appears to be Emerson & West.
Jon
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visionquest
Regular user
140 Posts
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Posted: Apr 5, 2012 6:02pm
There is more than one way to skin a cat. Some of the best workers work slow and some work fast. Some work quiet and some work loud. Some draw very small crowds and some draw massive crowds. Some are terribly polite and some are obnoxious and rude. Some fumble about with the cards and can hardly do the tricks and some are very dextrous. They all take good money. There are no rules except persistence, determination and most of all stamina. All that matters is the amount of money that is taken in at the end of the day. THAT is the only way you can grade a pitchman.
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LeoH
Regular user
163 Posts
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Posted: Apr 5, 2012 9:57pm
Jolly Roger is a very popular children's entertainer, too. We have to remember that the video is him working a trade show to draw a crowd to the sponsor's booth and not pitching to sell the decks. His real pitch to sell the deck is probably a little different.
LeoH
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LeoH
Regular user
163 Posts
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Posted: Apr 5, 2012 10:08pm
Don is right, the 3 card Monte trick does sound like Emerson and West "Color Monte". D. Robbins wholesales them at around $3.50. That is too rich for me to use these as a "kicker", plus the trick does take a lot of practice to get it down.
LeoH
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visionquest
Regular user
140 Posts
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Posted: Apr 6, 2012 12:23am
Leo. From what I understand he no longer pitches Svengali decks and has not done for so years. However, I understand from someone who worked with him that the pitch was virtually identical to what he did on the video except that the table was higher. The only real difference was that he asked for the money and did the standard explanation of getting the people to try the deck in their own hands. Everything else was exactly the same. My source tells me that he took in a LOT of money and never used a microphone.
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Jon-O the Great
Elite user
459 Posts
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Posted: Apr 6, 2012 8:03am
So if those guys sold the wallet for $20 they had $16 (or more!) in it, including shipping. Truly don't see the logic in that. MAYBE if I just put 'em on the table with a sign, then demo'd them ONLY when asked--MAYBE I'd sell 'em. But even that day at the show, NO ONE asked me if I had 'em.
But I have seen internet sites with the wallet selling for $30 and $40.
Jon
P.S.--I'M NOT A MAGICIAN! I'M NOT A MAGICIAN! I'M NOT A MAGICIAN! I'M NOT A......
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LeoH
Regular user
163 Posts
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Posted: Apr 6, 2012 9:32am
Visionquest:
Thanks for the insight on Jolly Roger's pitch. He has a great personality and comes across as a likeable guy.
LeoH
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Kim
Elite user
405 Posts
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Posted: Apr 7, 2012 8:56am
I have to disagree on the Color Monte being a hard trick to learn,it is basically two moves with it all being the same move till the end,when the second move happens.
It was one of the first tricks Al of Al's Magic Shop taught and sold to me.
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LeoH
Regular user
163 Posts
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Posted: Apr 7, 2012 2:57pm
Kim:
I guess it depends on natural ability, interest in learning the trick, and dedication level. I remember it seemed to take me forever to learn the trick, maybe I'm just dense. It is a great way to learn those 2 moves, though! Maybe I need to stock a few when someone tells me they already have a Svengali deck..................
LeoH
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DonDriver
Inner circle
1648 Posts
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Posted: Apr 7, 2012 5:05pm
It not a good trick for layman.Its really too hard for them to learn.
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Kim
Elite user
405 Posts
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Posted: Apr 8, 2012 7:23pm
I can agree with that Don, I should have been clearer in my statement I guess.I personally did not find it that hard to learn,but I was really an amateur magician at the time and not just a layman.
Sometimes its hard to switch between magic think and pitch think here on the discussion board.
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DonDriver
Inner circle
1648 Posts
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Posted: Apr 8, 2012 8:15pm
I understand Kim.But remember when it comes to layman (marks) they are brain dead.
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visionquest
Regular user
140 Posts
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Posted: Apr 9, 2012 7:52am
It is very tempting to think of the people in front of you as "brain dead" because of all the stress they can give you through a day asking how the tricks are done, not paying attention, eating hamburgers in front of you while you are working, walking away when you are demonstrating, heckling you and worst sin of all not purchasing anything.
However, that is an attitude of grizzled old pitchmen and although understandable is counter productive. It is the reason why new pitchmen who know nothing about the business at first often do far better than the old timers. They are more enthusiastic and are not so jaded. They don't see the customers as "marks". They see them as human beings, the customers sense this and purchase more. Then when the newcomer sees that he is taking in more money than the veteran he tends to get big headed and egotistical about it for a short time until he becomes as hard headed and cynical as the veteran and when that happens he becomes less effective and then stops bragging because his sales fall off a trifle.
My brother used to be a pitchman and ended up very wealthy with a chain of 30 retail shops. He said that when he was a pitchman he LIKED the people in front of him while 90% of other pitchmen called them "suckers" and "marks" and yes "brain dead" was a common expression. I asked him why he liked them and he said, "They give me money! Of course I like them!"
It should be borne in mind that the people we call "brain dead" may be doctors, lawyers, real estate salesmen or university professors. Hardly brain dead. It should also be borne in mind that many of the people who purchase from us live lives of luxury and affluence. The people we call "brain dead" and "suckers" can often buy and sell us. Sure, there are people on a lower economic scale than us but they deserve respect too.
I certainly don't practice what I preach because this is a hard business and the people can get to you with their inanities. But you should always keep at the back of your mind that the person who you consider a "mark" may well be living in luxury mansion while you are living in a cheap motel or a trailer.
Just something for all of us to think about.
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DonDriver
Inner circle
1648 Posts
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Posted: Apr 9, 2012 9:11am
Speaking of MARKS...
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seneca77
_cafeavatar.jpg)
Regular user
Tampa Bay, Florida
101 Posts
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Posted: Jan 14, 2013 6:33pm
Quote:
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On 2012-04-08 20:15, DonDriver wrote:
I understand Kim.But remember when it comes to layman (marks) they are brain dead.
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Wow! What an unbelievably crass and condescending attitude toward your paying customers. I'm in sales and yes, clients can be annoying and not understand things, but to paint them with such a wide brush seems counterproductive at best. I'm sure that attitude comes through in your pitch.
I'm sure I'll get flamed as this is my first post on Step Right Up but I just couldn't let this go. Maybe since I'm not a pitchman - just a lowly amateur magician - I'm sure I don't understand all the nuances of the job and its goals, but I just don't get it.
It looks like Mr. Driver has the pedigree behind pitching and has sold untold numbers of Svengali decks, but I wonder if he couldn't have sold even more if he treated his potential customers better.
If I'm missing the bigger picture here, please let me know. Do those brain dead marks *expect* to be harangued and harassed? Is that part of the charm of the show/pitch? Does that encourage them to open their wallets? I've seen enough pitches at state fairs (kitchen gadgets, mostly) to think that you "catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar" but maybe I'm just different that way.
Not trying to be hostile out of the gate, legitimately trying to understand the psychology at work here.
Thanks.
- Bob
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DonDriver
Inner circle
1648 Posts
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Posted: Jan 17, 2013 3:04pm
Bob its like this...marks are stupid as they can be and I can't stand most of them... but I'm a VERY good actor and they all think I love them.Remember I only have to see them once for about 10 minutes tops...after that they are history.If they linger I'll run them off...with a smile on my face of course.
Oh...pitchman aren't salesman...we are thieves,a much better way to make money.
Don
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Potty the Pirate
Inner circle
4253 Posts
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Posted: Jan 17, 2013 3:14pm
The process of becoming desensitised to your clients, and regarding them collectively as ignorant, happens in many vocations. On cruise ships, on aircraft, and in hotels, the vast majority of the staff, in time, genuinely despise the clients. They get together after work, and discuss the idiocy and crass attitudes of the punters. I know, because I've been there.
But of course, it's really only a very small minority of those clients who are actually idiots. Most of them deserve respect and consideration. Many of them are good Humans, caring folks, who would be horrified if they knew the condescending attitudes of the staff who serve them.
Unfortunately, working with Joe Public, it's the fools who stand out.
When I worked on cruise ships, we had a secret language (based on Cockney Rhyming Slang), so that we could actually slate the customers right in front of them, without them realising it. At least, that was the theory. The more intuitive and intelligent passengers clearly got a good idea of what was going on.
We referred to them as "Billies"...("Billy Bunter"="Punter")
I can honestly say that nearly all the folks I knew, who worked on cruise ships and in hotels, had a simply appalling attitude towards the clients. It was disturbing for me, and I was never comfortable with that attitude. Even though I admit that I joined in with the fun at the time.
In reality, it was our bosses, who treated us like dogs, and worked us like slaves, that were culpable. The clients had paid large sums of money to be there, and rightly deserved a high standard of service and respect. Sure, some of them were ignorant, but only a few.
When the passengers disembarked the ship, crew members would bleat "Baaaaa".....because they perceived them as sheep. Etc.
And what the waiters do to the food they serve to clients they personally perceive as "ignorant" ....well.....
A Head Chef on one cruise ship (one of the leading Cruise Lines in the World) once told me a story about a passenger who'd complained about his steak being too rare. Chef took the steak from the waiter who returned it, wiped it on his backside, right in front of all the other staff, slung it in a skillet for ten seconds...and sent it back.
Allegedly, the customer then reported that the steak was now "delicious".
Yes, these things really do happen.
If life has caused you to be so jaded, my opinion is, get the hell outta there. Find a new vocation, because your time has come for change.
That's what I did, when I was so exhausted from working every waking hour, every day, at a frenetic pace, with never a day off....and even the most reasonable of complaints from the clients seemed like a personal affront.....
If you don't respect your customers, how can you expect them to respect you? Well, only if they really are idiots....and truthfully, there aren't as many of those as we might like to think.
Potty the Pirate
Sussex Magician
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