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magicalaurie
Inner circle
Ontario, Canada
2371 Posts
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Posted: May 1, 2012 12:10pm
Or use the edit button. 
"Within all of us there is an elusive melody which, when heard and followed, leads to the fulfillment of our fondest dreams," Siegfried & Roy
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Motley Mage
Loyal user
Moving up slowly from just
232 Posts
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Posted: May 1, 2012 12:30pm
Hi Magicalaurie! I did try to go back and edit, but unfortunately the button had already gone away. I promise to proofread more carefully; I am an English professor, after all.
On a related side note, while I have no desire to become a grammar patrolman at the Café--there are plenty here already and I generally keep such comments to a minimum unless I am honestly trying to be helpful--there is one surprisingly frequent error I feel the need to address:
As related to magic, the word we want to use is "sleight" not "slight." "Slight of hand" would mean "having tiny hands," which while perhaps true of some magicians, they generally mean "skilled or cunning use of the hands," which needs the "e".
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: May 1, 2012 7:41pm
This thread follows upon that:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=127345&forum=171&5
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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Motley Mage
Loyal user
Moving up slowly from just
232 Posts
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Posted: May 1, 2012 8:29pm
I spend half my life explaining homonyms, homophones, and word origins to developmental writing students--with great joy and with the intent to instill a love and understanding of words. And I agree that part of respecting the art and the artists involves making at least an effort to get the important elements right.
And, by the way, my alter-ego is named Thaumus Sage after one of (y)our favorite words for "magician."
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magicalaurie
Inner circle
Ontario, Canada
2371 Posts
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Posted: May 1, 2012 8:44pm
Quote:
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On 2012-05-01 12:30, Motley Mage wrote:
Hi Magicalaurie! I did try to go back and edit, but unfortunately the button had already gone away... |
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Hi Motley Mage! Yes, but I was referring to 11:28 and 11:29 a.m.
"Within all of us there is an elusive melody which, when heard and followed, leads to the fulfillment of our fondest dreams," Siegfried & Roy
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billappleton
Inner circle
Los Gatos, California
1048 Posts
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Posted: May 1, 2012 9:17pm
Looking for practical advise.
Click here to view attached image.
Check out Under Glass
A Clearly Impossible Prediction!
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Andrew Zuber
Inner circle
Manhattan Beach, CA
2406 Posts
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Posted: May 2, 2012 1:41am
I very much disagree with the statement that there is a definitive "right" and "wrong" way to do a routine. What works for some will not work for others, and vice versa. I think it's very dangerous to speak as though things are absolutely one way or another, especially when it comes to creativity. Doing that only limits things. Bill often refers to the performer he knows that uses every move in the book in his routine. It sounds as though it's not working for that guy. I bet there's someone out there, however, that could pull that off and kill with it.
Some routines fit some performers. Other routines fit other performers. The terms right and wrong imply that these things are facts, which they are not; merely opinions. What we do with those opinions and advice is what can make us stronger performers, but to rule out certain aspects of a routine for every single performer in every situation is to limit creativity, which is never good. We should recognize our strengths and weaknesses and assist others in the same.
I think Bill's four points ought to be a sticky in this section. In fact they ought to be a sticky in just about every section; they're that good.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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The Burnaby Kid
Inner circle
GwangJu, South Korea
2720 Posts
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Posted: May 2, 2012 3:11am
Andrew,
While I can see where you're coming from with regards to the perils of claiming a definitive "right" or "wrong" in all this, I think that we need to be honest about what makes a classic effect classic, what the features of that effect are, and figure out if our routining and presentation is highlighting those features or undermining them.
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Dave V
Inner circle
Las Vegas, NV
4700 Posts
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Posted: May 2, 2012 3:15pm
I just got an announcement from Michael Ammar for his "4 minutes of fame" cups and balls routine. It looks like a great way to involve a spectator and get the audience rooting for him, and ultimately you.
In this short (!) routine, the spectator handles the cups and the magic happens without even him knowing how he did it. I see potential for street use, and in keeping with the title of this thread, keeps the routine short and sweet and is over before it has a chance of getting boring.
http://michaelammarmagic.com/4-Minutes-of-Fame-4min.htm
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Jon Blakeney
Special user
562 Posts
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Posted: May 9, 2012 10:14pm
Hi fellow Magi,the Fred Kapps routine,which can be seen on you tube is my favorite,closely followed by the Tommy Wonder routine with the bag and pom pom used as the final loads.Boring?not to me.
'What the eye's see the heart must believe"
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Frank Starsini
Eternal Order
Northern California
12226 Posts
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Posted: May 9, 2012 11:05pm
Of course not .. and why? Because both magicians are great entertainers.
I'll bet there are a hundred magicians doing tommy's routine and put their audiences to sleep.
We magicians are afraid to admit that entertainment comes almost exclusively from the magician's interesting personality paired with their creativity in the tricks they do.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate,
Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder.
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gdw
Inner circle
4428 Posts
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Posted: May 10, 2012 7:49am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-09 23:05, Frank Starsini wrote:
Of course not .. and why? Because both magicians are great entertainers.
I'll bet there are a hundred magicians doing tommy's routine and put their audiences to sleep.
We magicians are afraid to admit that entertainment comes almost exclusively from the magician's interesting personality paired with their creativity in the tricks they do.
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You know, I don't think I've ever seen another magician do Wonder's routine. I do a routine that I say basically is his, although very different, but I've never seen anyone else do it.
March 22, 2011, our beautiful baby girl, Evelyn, was born.
It's a brave new world, get with it, or get out of the way.
Man has evolved, "god" is extinct.
I won't forget you Robert.
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Alan Munro
Inner circle
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
5427 Posts
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Posted: May 10, 2012 8:56am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-02 15:15, Dave V wrote:
I just got an announcement from Michael Ammar for his "4 minutes of fame" cups and balls routine. It looks like a great way to involve a spectator and get the audience rooting for him, and ultimately you.
In this short (!) routine, the spectator handles the cups and the magic happens without even him knowing how he did it. I see potential for street use, and in keeping with the title of this thread, keeps the routine short and sweet and is over before it has a chance of getting boring.
http://michaelammarmagic.com/4-Minutes-of-Fame-4min.htm
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I just saw it on Lybray.com and found an earlier version of the routine on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9EvabU36go&feature=related I was certainly impressed! The loads got by me!
http://www.sneakymagician.com/
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gdw
Inner circle
4428 Posts
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Posted: May 10, 2012 9:24am
Honestly I like the idea of Ammar's new routine, but I'm not sure if it's there yet. By that I mean it's not where it COULD be yet.
Not to say Ammar's specific routine needed to be worked on more before releasing, but rather I am eager to see where others take the concept.
March 22, 2011, our beautiful baby girl, Evelyn, was born.
It's a brave new world, get with it, or get out of the way.
Man has evolved, "god" is extinct.
I won't forget you Robert.
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Alan Munro
Inner circle
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
5427 Posts
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Posted: May 10, 2012 6:48pm
Considering that the price for Ammar's lastest cups routine doesn't exactly break the bank, I'm sure that you'll see someone bringing it to the next level, before too long. Maybe that's why he released it now, because of a need for input to bring it where he believes it can be.
Don't get me wrong, I love the routine. I just think that Ammar has a higher vision for this routine, that haven't been realized, yet. I've certainly had nagging ideals in search of a solution, when it comes to my magic.
http://www.sneakymagician.com/
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ottphd
Regular user
182 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 10:47am
Alan
Check out Michaels's site. His new download, 4 minutes of Fame takes his cups and balls into the spectators hand. One new twist on his cups and balls!
Jim
http/www.jimsmagicshop.com
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bishthemagish
Inner circle
5579 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 2:03pm
Quote:
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On 2012-05-09 23:05, Frank Starsini wrote:
We magicians are afraid to admit that entertainment comes almost exclusively from the magician's interesting personality paired with their creativity in the tricks they do.
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I agree Frank! But I would also add there is entertaiment in the helper's reaction to the magic and also the reaction of the audience to the magic.
Just a few thoughts and opinion.
Glenn Bishop - Bish The Magish!
Magician, Card Sharp and Master Hypnotist.
http://glennbishopmagicandcards.blogspot.com
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rmann
New user
Milton VT and a forum newbie with only
86 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 2:18pm
Beautiful routine by Ammar! I really enjoyed watching it. Making the spectator such an integral part of the routine and seeing their reaction was key to the entertainment. Well done.
Ray
_
Ray
"...to Him who alone does great wonders, His love endures forever." Ps 136:4
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Alan Munro
Inner circle
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
5427 Posts
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Posted: May 12, 2012 3:27am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 10:47, ottphd wrote:
Alan
Check out Michaels's site. His new download, 4 minutes of Fame takes his cups and balls into the spectators hand. One new twist on his cups and balls!
Jim
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That's the routine I was referring to - already viewed two tapings of it, as I said. I wouldn't be surprised if he, or someone else, comes out with a version that takes the concept even further, before too long.
http://www.sneakymagician.com/
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gdw
Inner circle
4428 Posts
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Posted: May 12, 2012 11:44am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-12 03:27, Alan Munro wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 10:47, ottphd wrote:
Alan
Check out Michaels's site. His new download, 4 minutes of Fame takes his cups and balls into the spectators hand. One new twist on his cups and balls!
Jim
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That's the routine I was referring to - already viewed two tapings of it, as I said. I wouldn't be surprised if he, or someone else, comes out with a version that takes the concept even further, before too long.
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That's what I'm looking forward to.
March 22, 2011, our beautiful baby girl, Evelyn, was born.
It's a brave new world, get with it, or get out of the way.
Man has evolved, "god" is extinct.
I won't forget you Robert.
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Frank Starsini
Eternal Order
Northern California
12226 Posts
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Posted: May 12, 2012 12:37pm
The helper concept is a good one with potential pitfalls.
Get the wrong spectator up there and it could really kill the routine if:
1. the spectator is a dim wit.
2. the spectator now thinks it's their show.
3. the spectator is uncomfortable / self-conscious, really lowing the energy on stage.
4. etc.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate,
Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder.
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Pete Biro
V.I.P.
17755 Posts
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Posted: May 12, 2012 7:50pm
Goshman entered the WMS close-up contest, and everyone figure he was a shoe in to win. But, the woman assisting him was a total dud/jerk and killed his act and he slid right down the drain. So sad.
STAY TOONED... @ www.petebiro.com
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magicians
Inner circle
Teacher and Legend
2872 Posts
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Posted: May 14, 2012 11:27pm
Quote:
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On 2012-05-02 15:15, Dave V wrote:
I just got an announcement from Michael Ammar for his "4 minutes of fame" cups and balls routine. It looks like a great way to involve a spectator and get the audience rooting for him, and ultimately you.
In this short (!) routine, the spectator handles the cups and the magic happens without even him knowing how he did it. I see potential for street use, and in keeping with the title of this thread, keeps the routine short and sweet and is over before it has a chance of getting boring.
http://michaelammarmagic.com/4-Minutes-of-Fame-4min.htm
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As a dealer for over 35 years, I always let the spectator do the cups and balls (before he gets the secret}. The mechanics of the effect allow it. Now, if c&b were that boring, how could us "dealers" present and sell them They are and always will be compelling.
I still love vernons version, and of course Johnny"Ace"Palmer.
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
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Frank Starsini
Eternal Order
Northern California
12226 Posts
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Posted: May 17, 2012 6:31pm
Ian, dealers are presenting and selling them to those that love magic from a performance stand-point.
They are selling by giving a prospective customer the "i can't wait to be able to learn all the secrets and do this trick myself" feeling.
That's an easy sell.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate,
Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder.
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bishthemagish
Inner circle
5579 Posts
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Posted: May 17, 2012 6:57pm
Quote:
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On 2012-05-12 12:37, Frank Starsini wrote:
The helper concept is a good one with potential pitfalls.
Get the wrong spectator up there and it could really kill the routine if:
1. the spectator is a dim wit.
2. the spectator now thinks it's their show.
3. the spectator is uncomfortable / self-conscious, really lowing the energy on stage.
4. etc.
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I agree.
And maybe it is just me but I don't do any routines where an audience member becomes the performer. If I have a client - they are paying me as a pro to do the show. Sure I use a lot of helpers from the audience but not one of them becomes the magician - that is my part in the play that happens when I do a magic show.
Just a few thoughts and opinion.
Glenn Bishop - Bish The Magish!
Magician, Card Sharp and Master Hypnotist.
http://glennbishopmagicandcards.blogspot.com
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Tryllejakob
New user
Denmark
51 Posts
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Posted: May 19, 2012 7:48am
C&B is not boring, but there is a lot of boring routines in magic. I think time is the big reason for that, look at Dai Vernons routine, I bet he would have made a 2-3 min routine if he invented it to day. Most starters on C&B are using the old routines that is 7-8 min then they ad 3-4 different moves they like. And then the boring part is here.
My choice for a C&B routine is a 2 cups routine, where each effect I presented with a 2 line poem. The hole routine is 3 min and it plays great for lay audiences. It is performed in Danish, so I don't give a video clip
Best Regards
Jakob Rasmussen
Denmark
www.magicshow.dk
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: May 19, 2012 12:17pm
There is a common misconception that Vernon "invented" the Vernon routine. He basically developed it from Max Malini's routine, according to a couple of my friends who learned Malini's routine from Malini's son.
A lot of the best material has never appeared in print. Al Baker's three ball C&B routine is a perfect example.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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rickmagic1
Inner circle
Franklin, TN...where the fences have
1429 Posts
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Posted: Jun 3, 2012 11:40pm
Just found this thread and have greatly enjoyed reading through all the different views here. I've looked for the "perfect" routine for me, and finally found that there isn't one. It's already been said many times: unless you are entertaining, then what you do doesn't matter. I am a huge fan of Michael Skinner's routine which was very entertaining to watch.
That said, I have three routines that I perform. The first is a variation of the Mendoza routine that I just found was way too long in its original form. The second is a two-cup routine that I learned from Aldo Colombini. The third is Malone's handling of Rub-A-Dub-Dub found on one of his videos. I feel that all three get a great response, though I find it quite interesting that the one that seems to get the best response of all is Rub-A-Dub-Dub.
Rick
Rick Green
Mentalism...it's a mind thing...
If you need to reach me, PM me...I'm here quite often.
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Corbett
Inner circle
Indiana
1070 Posts
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Posted: Jun 4, 2012 9:51am
I've enjoyed reading this entire thread. Just a few thoughts to Frank and the many others. This is a re-statement of some of the other posts, but boring magic is certainly not specific to cups and balls. There is a lot of really awful magic out there, being performed by awful magicians. There are a lot of people in the world who call themselves magicians. A 12 year-old kid who buys a Svengali Deck online can call himself a magician. This doesn't mean he is. It's the same with any kind of art or performance art. Some dude who tries out for American Idol and sucks, is probably thought to be pretty good by his friends and neighbors. Doesn't mean he is. Hmm, I'm rambling. Bottomline, there will also be subpar magicians, doing subpar magic. Be it cups and balls, card magic, coins, etc.. Unfortunately, unlike a licensed profession; law, medicine, etc... you can't regulate it and it will always be the case.
Another point entirely. I think an awful lot of hobbyist magicians focus too much time trying to fool other magicians, be it at a club meeting, convention, or whatever, because honestly, that is all they ever perform for. If you're not focusing 100% of your time and effort on lay people, I think the time is not well-spent.
CORBETT D. TROYER
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rickmagic1
Inner circle
Franklin, TN...where the fences have
1429 Posts
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Posted: Jun 5, 2012 9:11pm
I'm kinda taking it as a personal challenge to work out a routine that will use ordinary household objects for the routine rather than "magician's cups" and "crocheted balls". We'll see how it goes...
Rick
Rick Green
Mentalism...it's a mind thing...
If you need to reach me, PM me...I'm here quite often.
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