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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Apr 20, 2012 1:45am
One of the things I miss about my wife was that she was the ideal audience for magic. If she liked a presentation, EVERYONE would like it. If she didn't, she would tell you so you could make it better.
She hated most linking ring routines, for example. But when she saw Vernon do his routine, she enjoyed it and told me so. That set the bar fairly high for me. I came up with a routine that she really liked. It was totally different from the Vernon routine. And it went over very well when I performed it at Renaissance festivals.
BTW, here's one hint about doing magic. If you do lines while you are doing your routine, make sure that they actually add something to your routine. If a line is supposed to be funny, and it doesn't get a laugh, get rid of it. Or work on the timing. Don't get "married" to your material. If you do, you will never be able to improve it when it needs improving.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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Pete Biro
V.I.P.
17740 Posts
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Posted: Apr 20, 2012 2:24am
Y'all will be able to study Master Palmer's ring routine in my book, "The Real Secret of the Chinese Linking Rings." Should be ready to deliver mid-May. PM me for details.
STAY TOONED... @ www.petebiro.com
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Frank Starsini
Eternal Order
Northern California
12224 Posts
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Posted: Apr 20, 2012 2:47am
Quote:
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On 2012-04-20 00:52, kentfgunn wrote:
Frank,
etc. etc. .... your thoughts and absence of moves into practice.
KG
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I don't have an absence of moves. I just don't use them to entertain an audience.
I don't think I have any footage of my cups routine yet. When I do, I'll let you know.
I'm also now writing all this because I've figured everything out or because I think my routine is better than average.
I'm just expressing my thought and sharing what I've learned from experience.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate,
Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder.
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cupsandballsmagic
Inner circle
2457 Posts
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Posted: Apr 20, 2012 6:57am
I believe that a performer has to differentiate and dissociate "caring" on different levels.
I think it's entirely appropriate for a performer to care about details like ball visibility, the apparent absense of any sleights, the quality of the props used, the weight of the balls, working surface and take all of this into account in order to make it the best performance in a technical sense... but to believe that the audience cars at all about these tings is very naive at best.
The real challenge is creating a performance that people are engaged in and hopefully entertained while making all the technical aspects (that as a performer you obsessed about) fade into the background. It's also important to make it congruent to the environment such a street, dinner party, impromptu etc. 99% of routines people perform at magic clubs would die a terrible death on the street.
As for the sequences, nope the audience (in most cases) don't care about either. It's all about the final loads.
I would be highly dissapointed if nobody spoke about the final loads and walked away saying; "Well, he had a ball in each cup and then they went to the middel, after that the ball in the middle went to the end..."
Cups and Balls | Cups and Balls magic
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Filip VR
New user
14 Posts
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Posted: Apr 20, 2012 7:28am
Thinking about the balls...I think there is one routine in which I cared about the balls. It's Paul Gertners steel balls routine. But Frank is right: I cared for the surprise (that they might jump without being noticed.)
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Pete Biro
V.I.P.
17740 Posts
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Posted: Apr 20, 2012 11:11am
It is not just about the final loads. As Ken Brooke used to preach, "It's the journey through your act, or routine, that makes it."
STAY TOONED... @ www.petebiro.com
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gdw
Inner circle
4426 Posts
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Posted: Apr 20, 2012 8:15pm
Quote:
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On 2012-04-20 11:11, Pete Biro wrote:
It is not just about the final loads. As Ken Brooke used to preach, "It's the journey through your act, or routine, that makes it."
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I keep wanting to point to Tommy Wonder's routine for this, although you could argue it is also still about the "final" loads, they just aren't exclusively at the "finale."
However, he structured it such that the routine those loads, and the rest of the routine, accentuate each other so well, such that the load IS (part of) the routine, but not that the routine is just ABOUT the load, if that makes sense.
I like to think my routine is about more than the final loads, but then I imagine many of us like to think that. Mine is largely based off of Wonder's brilliant routine, I have a similar "surprise" in the middle, but it's not the final load, and it progresses the routine in such a way that helps make it, IMHO, something that is memorable beyond just the final loads.
March 22, 2011, our beautiful baby girl, Evelyn, was born.
It's a brave new world, get with it, or get out of the way.
Man has evolved, "god" is extinct.
I won't forget you Robert.
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Frank Starsini
Eternal Order
Northern California
12224 Posts
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Posted: Apr 21, 2012 12:49am
I think surprises are a key to modern entertainment as far as magic goes.
I mostly do a comedy stand-up act and I try to have a lot of unexpected surprises along the way.
I find the impact and reactions are as powerful as a great "magic moment".
Speaking of Tommy Wonder and surprises, I love his "appearing egg" on the table.
Wonderful stuff.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate,
Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder.
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Donnie Buckley
V.I.P.
Cleveland, Ohio
1012 Posts
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Posted: Apr 21, 2012 12:56pm
TW's Appearing Egg is wonderful because he asks, "Did YOU lay the egg?"
It's not just an unexpected surprise. It's a loaded question, full of weirdness - the implications of the question are bizarre and puts the poor spectator-that-has-been-asked-the-question's mind into a tail spin. For everyone else seeing the rapport - it's hilarious.
It's one of those situations where the spectator's response has all the potential to be entertainment gold.
Learn the form, but seek the formless. Learn it all, then forget it all. Learn the way, then find your own way.
Rings-N-Things / RNT2
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Apr 22, 2012 6:16pm
I'm not sure where I read this. It might have been in <i>Our Magic</i>, or perhaps in one of the Fitzkee books.
Surprises must be somehow related to what we are doing. For example, if we are doing a cups and balls routine, and one of the final loads is a rotten banana, there must be a way of tying it in to what we have been doing. There is basically a "range of acceptable surprises."
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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Payne
Inner circle
Seattle
4258 Posts
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Posted: Apr 22, 2012 9:21pm
Quote:
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On 2012-04-22 18:16, Bill Palmer wrote:
"There is basically a "range of acceptable surprises."
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As anyone who has ever given their wife a vacuum for an anniversary present can attest :)
I contend that we are both atheists.
I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
http://masterpaynemagic.com
Need a Corset in Seattle? http://fittingroomcorsets.com
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Michael Baker
Inner circle
Near a river in the Midwest
8454 Posts
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Posted: Apr 22, 2012 9:40pm
Quote:
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On 2012-04-22 18:16, Bill Palmer wrote:
Surprises must be somehow related to what we are doing.
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Precisely! In simplest terms, relevance is key.
The finale, final loads, climax, or whatever we choose to call it, is relevant to the preceding action. Think of it as an exclamation point at the end of a statement. It signifies the end, but in a stronger way than, say just a period. The action doesn't just end, it ends with a statement about itself. The climax is an augmentation to the statement.
But, to think "it's all about the final loads", is the same as saying the exclamation point itself is the whole point of the statement. This is naive to the extreme.
~michael baker
The Magic Company
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Josh the Superfluous
Inner circle
The man of
1866 Posts
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Posted: Apr 22, 2012 10:15pm
Just reposting because it touched me. And the Café doesn't have a like button.
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...HAVE FUN! Fun is contagious. Laymen don't care if you use a false transfer or if you use a machine that does the work for you on your right arm. Entertain! Entertain!Entertain! There are some FISM level routines that are BORING to laymen.... do what works for you and ENTERTAIN!
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What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2
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The Burnaby Kid
Inner circle
GwangJu, South Korea
2720 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 1:13am
Quote:
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On 2012-04-22 21:40, Michael Baker wrote:
But, to think "it's all about the final loads", is the same as saying the exclamation point itself is the whole point of the statement. This is naive to the extreme.
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Well, one of the reasons why some of us say "It's all about the final loads" is because that's the memory of the effect as a whole. I'd say it's wishing thinking for a magician to expect that a spectator is going to remember the nuances of a gathering phase or a penetration phase as much as they're going to remember "...and then there was all this fruit that came out of nowhere!"
Obviously, in order to get the most out of the final loads, you've got to properly leverage the specific aspects of the preliminary phases so that at the moment they're being performed, they're sufficiently engaging and entertaining.
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Andrew Zuber
Inner circle
Manhattan Beach, CA
2403 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 1:35am
Quote:
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On 2012-04-22 21:21, Payne wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-04-22 18:16, Bill Palmer wrote:
"There is basically a "range of acceptable surprises."
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As anyone who has ever given their wife a vacuum for an anniversary present can attest 
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That sucks.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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cupsandballsmagic
Inner circle
2457 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 5:22am
Quote:
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But, to think "it's all about the final loads", is the same as saying the exclamation point itself is the whole point of the statement. This is naive to the extreme.
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That seems to have negated everything I said previous to that. Perhaps I worded it incorrecltly?
In terms of what the audience talks about afterwards, the biggest impact is the final loads, of course the journey is just as important.
My poor choice of wording "it's all about the final loads" didn't help, however a little slack and reading between the lines might have been appropriate after the words that preceeded those!
Cups and Balls | Cups and Balls magic
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billappleton
Inner circle
Los Gatos, California
1044 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 10:52am
Quote:
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On 2012-04-23 05:22, cupsandballsmagic wrote:
the biggest impact is the final loads, of course the journey is just as important.
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That's a problem I have with the c & b. sometimes "the journey" is a confusing jumble of balls moving around. people need to be sure the journey is BUILDING to the final loads. the somewhat simplified presentation of the benson bowl is a little easier to follow in terms of building.
Check out Under Glass
A Clearly Impossible Prediction!
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Frank Starsini
Eternal Order
Northern California
12224 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 12:15pm
Without the initial phases, the final loads have no meaning or surprise.
The size difference gives the surprise. The change to fruit is absurd, adding comedy.
Building during the initial phases can be done but no matter what you do, I suspect most layman are:
a. trying to figure it out
b. seeing it as a juggling expose
Presentation help create the "journey", however I fear that still many of us still think an audience is going to be entertained during the
initial phases with lines like...
"Now I know what you're thinking. You're thinking I wonder if he can..."
"Wouldn't it be great if I could get ball "A" over to ...."
"The ball went down last time. I wonder if I can ..."
Entertaining to anyone????
How are you going to entertain a room of 300 people with lines like that?
You're not.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate,
Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder.
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Pete Biro
V.I.P.
17740 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 12:27pm
300 people? All at once? Do the linking Rings and Egg Bag (classics).
STAY TOONED... @ www.petebiro.com
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cupsandballsmagic
Inner circle
2457 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 12:35pm
Isn't that true of any form or entertainment (let alone trick) though Frank? You've got to breathe soul into it.
Cups and Balls | Cups and Balls magic
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Frank Starsini
Eternal Order
Northern California
12224 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 12:47pm
True.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate,
Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder.
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cupsandballsmagic
Inner circle
2457 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 1:45pm
Of course, it's also the hardest part!
Cups and Balls | Cups and Balls magic
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Frank Starsini
Eternal Order
Northern California
12224 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 5:40pm
I used "the cups and balls" in the title just to get more attention than the thread deserved.
But this has to do with all magic and not just the cups and balls.
I think my core thought on the subject of all this is...
What magicians find interesting and what is actually entertaining are often/usually 2 separate things.
Which might be what Max Maven meant when he let us know that ...
To become a good magician you have to overcome why you became a magician in the first place
But what do I know.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate,
Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder.
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Apr 26, 2012 12:39am
Even those cliched old lines can be of value if they are delivered with sincerity. This is a case of picking the correct wording for YOUR way of addressing an audience. I would not direct those lines to the whole audience. I might say a variation of one of those lines to a spectator who was on stage "monitoring" what I was doing.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Apr 26, 2012 12:42am
Quote:
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On 2012-04-22 21:21, Payne wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-04-22 18:16, Bill Palmer wrote:
"There is basically a "range of acceptable surprises."
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As anyone who has ever given their wife a vacuum for an anniversary present can attest
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One Christmas, my wife asked me to give her an electric lawnmower. She used to imagine that each blade of grass was one of the insurance agents she worked with, and she was decapitating them with the mower. She had a delicious sense of humor.
So I went over to Home Depot and got her a really nice mower. The lady in the garden center was helping me wrestle the thing into my van. I said, "My wife is really going to LOVE this Christmas present!"
The lady said "You're really NOT going to give her this for Christmas, are you?"
"Why not? She loved the drill press I got her last year!"
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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Zombie Magic
Inner circle
I went out for a beer and now have
6490 Posts
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Posted: Apr 26, 2012 3:10am
Here's a some thoughts I have.
Years ago my brother, who does no magic, knows no magic, etc. entertained a group of kids with a coin routine. One of the asked him for a quarter and he went into this nonsense routine and that was just confusion magic. It was what he thought was magic. The kids laughed so hard! I've seen gifted sleight of hand guys bore people to death with their coin(s)
Gazzo is brilliant doing the cups and balls. Yet, I've seen magicians do his routine, word for word and no one cared.
It's fun to practice, hone, develop, any piece(s) of magic. But it's the personality that sells it.
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Dougini
Inner circle
I have killed more topics with my
4517 Posts
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Posted: Apr 26, 2012 11:21am
Quote:
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On 2012-04-26 03:10, Zombie Magic wrote:
...Years ago my brother, who does no magic, knows no magic, etc. entertained a group of kids with a coin routine. One of the asked him for a quarter and he went into this nonsense routine and that was just confusion magic. It was what he thought was magic. The kids laughed so hard! I've seen gifted sleight of hand guys bore people to death with their coin(s)
Gazzo is brilliant doing the cups and balls. Yet, I've seen magicians do his routine, word for word and no one cared.
It's fun to practice, hone, develop, any piece(s) of magic. But it's the personality that sells it.
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Great example! Here is something I posted elsewhere, but it fits here too:
What if you had a gig you had to travel to, and you get off the plane, in your t-shirt and cut-off jeans, and find your baggage has been lost. Your gig is in 15 minutes...you are caught in the rain and are soaking wet by the time you get to your gig, and you hear the announcer call your name! YOU'RE ON!
Your stage show is 20 minutes long. What are you going to do? Can you keep them entertained? Will they think they got their money's worth? That is the test of a true performer.
That, by the way is a paraphrasing from the book, Tales Of Enchantment: The Art Of Magic by Walt Anthony.
http://www.leapinglizardsmagic.com/tales_of_enchantment.htm
I think the idea is BE ENTERTAINING first! Be a likeable, charismatic performer! The "props" and routine are secondary.
Doug
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Frank Starsini
Eternal Order
Northern California
12224 Posts
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Posted: Apr 26, 2012 12:53pm
That nearly happened to me. I was booked to do strolling for 500 people. Drove 2 hrs to get there with my strolling stuff.
Showed up and they told me "500 people are gonna walk thru those doors in 10 minutes. Strolling isn't going to work."
The agent that booked me was also there and looked at me sheepishly and said.. "sorry. is there anything I can do?"
As I walked back out to my car I told him, "just find me a roll of toilet paper".
There was a hint of panic in me but looking at my available props I realized I could just do the stuff I use when busking, and then it all seemed very normal and do-able.
I returned with a few props that would play big, they put a lapel mic on me and handed me the TP and said, "you're on".
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate,
Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder.
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: Apr 26, 2012 6:31pm
I've been in a similar bind before. I was doing a trade show in Vegas. My carry on stayed with me, but my PA, my wardrobe and some of my bigger props were delayed 18 hours while a group of thieves went picking through them. (These were the same guys who stole Clayton Moore's Colt .45's!) I went on, unamplified, did the few things I could do with the items I'd brought with me, and when my props, costume and PA arrived, I set up quickly and finished the trade show successfully.
I got rebooked the next year, because I could think on my feet.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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Dynamike
Eternal Order
20602 Posts
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Posted: Apr 26, 2012 10:34pm
Quote:
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On 2012-04-09 11:24, Frank Starsini wrote:
Someone emailed me how tips on the Cups and Balls.
I replied...
The cups and balls is boring. Period.
The cups and balls needs to be entertaining. You can do it!
DO NOT try to incorporate tons of your favorite moves/slights into the routine.
DO NOT make it long.
DO NOT make it complicated.
Most routines are way too long. because magicians like tons of moves and want them all in their routine.
Your audience is NOT a room full of magicians.
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You should watch Tommy Wonder's version.
Dynamike
Oakland County Magician Macomb County Magician Wayne County Magician Detroit Magician Detroit Clown
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