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Andrew Mesmer
New user
New York
11 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 6:50pm
This is my first post here on the forum, so if this isn’t the correct location for this topic I apologize.
I have been performing magic for most of my adult life and recently I have taken a strong interest in Mentalism. I feel that this is the direction I want to go in, but I still like magic a lot, and the idea of not doing it anymore is a little depressing.
With that said…
What are your thoughts on presenting yourself as both a Magician AND a Mentalist? I am not asking about mixing the two together, I don’t plan on doing that, but rather offering both services as separate shows. Do you think that being a magician is harmful to your image as a mentalist, or vice versa? Do I have to give up one to be taken seriously as the other? Or am I just overanalyzing this a little bit?
Any input would be appreciated.
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S2000magician
Inner circle
Yorba Linda, CA
3597 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 6:54pm
I advertise myself as a magician, and I include some strong, serious mentalism in my acts. Being a magician hasn't detracted from the impact of the mentalism.
I see no reason that advertising yourself as a magician and as a mentalist should have any harmful interactions. At least, not like mixing ammonia and chlorine bleach.
BCIII
The Polite Side of Magic
Risk Mitigation Associates
Bottom Line Gurus
I took the Pledge
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Steve_Mollett
Inner circle
Eh, so I've made
2602 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 7:17pm
Kreskin readily featured sleight-of-hand alongside his mentalism experiments.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
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Steven Keyl
Inner circle
Washington, D.C.
1380 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 7:28pm
Short answer: yes, with an if...
Long answer: no, with a but...
Steven Keyl
Latest review:
The Art of Switching Decks
"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
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Andrew Mesmer
New user
New York
11 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 7:34pm
Quote:
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On 2012-04-23 19:28, Steven Keyl wrote:
Short answer: yes, with an if...
Long answer: no, with a but...
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Could you elaborate more on this? I would be interested in hearing why they are both correct
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MagicBrain
New user
40 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 7:42pm
When you say you want to be a Mentalist, do you mean doing a complete mentalist show like Dunninger/Banachek/Derren Brown/Osterlind or do you mean doing a 'Mental Magic' show ?
I think if you want to be Magician and a Mentalist, you should have a lot of time practicing both art form because the presentation is quite different. Myself, I have tried to build a mentalist show, a magician show and a children show but I soon realise it was to much stuff and time consumming to have a professional presentation for all of them. Magic is not my full time job, but maybe this is different for you.
As for your precise question of Mentalist versus Magician : for me a Mentalist IS a Magician who is peforming magic with the minds instead of with some kind of strange apparatus. If you are beginning in the field of mentalist or magician, I think it is wise not to take it to seriously at first. For me, mentalism is quite harder to perform well because you are dealing with less props and more with managing people attention.
If you are serious about a putting together a real mentalist show, you should incorporate such thing as Cold reading, Muscle reading, Blindfold skills, ... that takes a lot of timing and good management to master.
In Canada there is a very good Mentalist (Gary Kurtz) that had put together 2 shows. The first one was more a mental magic mentalist show and the second one was pure mentalist show. It was quite different in taste and flavor !
There is no problem being both and have more flavors to your arsenal. Being a mentalist these days is not something that is related to 'real psychological skills'. I don't think that lay people believe in real power when they see a mentalist show.
It also depends on how you want to market yourself... do want to specialised in one field and be known for that or do you want more variety in you marketing presentation.
For me, I was always more inclined to put a mentalist show together without magic tricks because that what interested me the most. But I realised that I wouldn't be able to perform in some venues because my mentalist show was to serious for some customers. So I decided to put together a Mental Magic show so that I could have a more wider market share. Maybe your market is different where you live and a mentalist show would sell very well. For me, this is not the case and having no time to build both type of shows, I decided to go for Magic and Mental in the same one.
Thanks and I hope that this can help you decide which side is better for you (sweet or sour!).
Magic Brain
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Steve_Mollett
Inner circle
Eh, so I've made
2602 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 7:45pm
The late Dr. Zomb (Ormond McGill) performed a three-part, full-evening show:
1) Magic,
2) Mentalism
3) Hypnotism
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
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Jerskin
Inner circle
1424 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 7:54pm
Al Koran.
GrEg oTtO
MUNDUS VULT DECIPI
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Andrew Mesmer
New user
New York
11 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 7:58pm
Quote:
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On 2012-04-23 19:42, MagicBrain wrote:
When you say you want to be a Mentalist, do you mean doing a complete mentalist show like Dunninger/Banachek/Derren Brown/Osterlind or do you mean doing a 'Mental Magic' show ?
I think if you want to be Magician and a Mentalist, you should have a lot of time practicing both art form because the presentation is quite different. Myself, I have tried to build a mentalist show, a magician show and a children show but I soon realise it was to much stuff and time consumming to have a professional presentation for all of them. Magic is not my full time job, but maybe this is different for you.
As for your precise question of Mentalist versus Magician : for me a Mentalist IS a Magician who is peforming magic with the minds instead of with some kind of strange apparatus. If you are beginning in the field of mentalist or magician, I think it is wise not to take it to seriously at first. For me, mentalism is quite harder to perform well because you are dealing with less props and more with managing people attention.
If you are serious about a putting together a real mentalist show, you should incorporate such thing as Cold reading, Muscle reading, Blindfold skills, ... that takes a lot of timing and good management to master.
In Canada there is a very good Mentalist (Gary Kurtz) that had put together 2 shows. The first one was more a mental magic mentalist show and the second one was pure mentalist show. It was quite different in taste and flavor !
There is no problem being both and have more flavors to your arsenal. Being a mentalist these days is not something that is related to 'real psychological skills'. I don't think that lay people believe in real power when they see a mentalist show.
It also depends on how you want to market yourself... do want to specialised in one field and be known for that or do you want more variety in you marketing presentation.
For me, I was always more inclined to put a mentalist show together without magic tricks because that what interested me the most. But I realised that I wouldn't be able to perform in some venues because my mentalist show was to serious for some customers. So I decided to put together a Mental Magic show so that I could have a more wider market share. Maybe your market is different where you live and a mentalist show would sell very well. For me, this is not the case and having no time to build both type of shows, I decided to go for Magic and Mental in the same one.
Thanks and I hope that this can help you decide which side is better for you (sweet or sour!).
Magic Brain
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Yes, I mean to do a complete Mentalism show and a complete Magic show, separate from one another. The magic show may include a few mental magic effects, but the mentalism show would be pure mentalism. Practicing both until they are of a professional caliber is something I am very much prepared to do. Believe it or not the mentalism seems to come much more naturally to me as audience management and timing aren't a problem, which may have to do with the fact that I have a degree in acting and theatre. That wasn't meant to sound like bragging, I just want to let you know where I'm coming from. Perhaps I should have included it in the original post, which would be my own fault. I guess the major concern here is if people will be confused by the fact that I do both and if I am seen performing with one style, whether or not they will forever label me as just the one.
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MagicBrain
New user
40 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 7:58pm
Yes I agree... Kresking and Al Koran... didn't know about Dr Zomb (did an amazon search to know a bit more). I think we could add James Randi.
Magic Brain
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mastermindreader
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
6068 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 8:06pm
If you become well known as a magician, it will be difficult to convince audiences who already know you that your mentalism is anything other than more magic tricks.
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Steve_Mollett
Inner circle
Eh, so I've made
2602 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 8:35pm
EXCELLENT point. If you don't care if people view it as an illusion, it's not a big deal.
BUT, if you want people to speculate that you might be the 'real deal,' you want to stay light years away from ANYTHING associated with 'magic tricks.'
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
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TonyB2009
Inner circle
3231 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 9:46pm
While Bob is right, you can get around that. I did a gig recently where the people realised when they saw me that they had seen me as a kids magician. So I came right out and admitted it; I make my living doing kids shows. But I have a passion for the real magic - the magic of the mind. If I had tried to fudge the issue I would have thrown suspicion on everything. But by openly dealing with it, we got it out of the way, and moved on to an hour of pure, propless mentalism.
That said, I would prefer if I could completely separate the two!
Check out Tony's new thriller The Gilli Gilli Man at Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Gilli-Tony-Black-Mysteries-ebook/dp/B007GFD0NQ/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1363055541&sr=8-16&keywords=The+Gilli+Gilli+Man
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JamesTalbert
New user
42 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 9:50pm
Didn't Mr Osterlind used to open his shows with Linking Rings, then go directly into metal bending? I think I saw that on one of his DVDs
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Stefmagic
Veteran user
394 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 10:51pm
Quote:
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On 2012-04-23 19:42, MagicBrain wrote:
When you say you want to be a Mentalist, do you mean doing a complete mentalist show like Dunninger/Banachek/Derren Brown/Osterlind or do you mean doing a 'Mental Magic' show ?
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correction : Richard Osterlind does a lot of magic stuff...
- Bill in Cigarette
- Uncanny - An ordinary playing card slowly turns over by itself to reveal it's the thought-of card.
- Glass of Water Production
- Marked Coin in Bottl
- Signed Torn and Restored Post-It Note
- Signed Torn and Restored Newspaper
- OUT OF HAND — one of the most entertaining Six-Card Repeat-type effects
- INDUSTRIAL STRENGTH LINK
- COIN SNATCH
- ORIGINAL INSIDE OUT
- PEN PADDLE MOVE
- DAD’S FAVORITE
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Andrew Mesmer
New user
New York
11 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 10:53pm
There's a lot of great points being raised here for both sides...
Perhaps I am just afraid to lose magic because it's what I've identified/been comfortable with for so long, even though Mentalism seems like it might be better for me. This is beginning to sound like a bad breakup haha. I do tell people that I'm not psychic. I seem to like the approach of telling people that I'm using body language/psychology and theatrics to interpret what people are thinking because it has some sense of plausibility to it. On the other hand if they understand it's just entertainment, would they still interpret that as "real"? or just a different kind of magic?
maybe I'm thinking myself into a corner.
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John C
Inner circle
The AMAZING and COMMERCIAL Chair Test
6159 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 11:05pm
Quote:
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On 2012-04-23 22:53, Andrew Mesmer wrote:
There's a lot of great points being raised here for both sides...
Perhaps I am just afraid to lose magic because it's what I've identified/been comfortable with for so long, even though Mentalism seems like it might be better for me. This is beginning to sound like a bad breakup haha. I do tell people that I'm not psychic. I seem to like the approach of telling people that I'm using body language/psychology and theatrics to interpret what people are thinking because it has some sense of plausibility to it. On the other hand if they understand it's just entertainment, would they still interpret that as "real"? or just a different kind of magic?
maybe I'm thinking myself into a corner.
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... Just be a magician. What's wrong with that? Are you good at it?
The ULTIMATE Routine Series:
www.professionalmagicroutines.com
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Slim King
Eternal Order
Orlando
13012 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 11:18pm
Quote:
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On 2012-04-23 20:06, mastermindreader wrote:
If you become well known as a magician, it will be difficult to convince audiences who already know you that your mentalism is anything other than more magic tricks.
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Got to agree here !!!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS
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Andrew Mesmer
New user
New York
11 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 11:20pm
Quote:
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On 2012-04-23 23:05, johncesta wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-04-23 22:53, Andrew Mesmer wrote:
There's a lot of great points being raised here for both sides...
Perhaps I am just afraid to lose magic because it's what I've identified/been comfortable with for so long, even though Mentalism seems like it might be better for me. This is beginning to sound like a bad breakup haha. I do tell people that I'm not psychic. I seem to like the approach of telling people that I'm using body language/psychology and theatrics to interpret what people are thinking because it has some sense of plausibility to it. On the other hand if they understand it's just entertainment, would they still interpret that as "real"? or just a different kind of magic?
maybe I'm thinking myself into a corner.
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... Just be a magician. What's wrong with that? Are you good at it?
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There's nothing wrong with being a magician. It's just that mentalism is the way I've decided to go, and it's a matter of figuring out if I can still hang onto magic without people thinking that my mentalism show is the same thing just with less props.
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Mindpro
Inner circle
3590 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 11:33pm
As demonstrated and given several examples it can and has been done. My opinion differs here. To me it's a foundational and believability issue.
Magic is understood to be a trick, an illusion, deception, not real. The audience knows this and then tries to figure out how it's done. This is the agreement between the performer and the audience.
In mentalism, it is the completely opposite. You want the audience to believe what you are doing is possible, is real. You do not want them to thick trick, deceit or not real, you want them to believe in the possibilities, belief, and question these abilities as they exist or perhaps pertain to themselves.
Combining the two is like saying this is a trick, this is a trick , this is a trick, but hey look I just happen to also be able to (insert mental ability here - read minds, see or predict the future, bend metal with my mind, etc.)
They actually work against the other. If you are doing decent mentalism, but then bring in any type of trick, deceit or illusion, the audience can then automatically think, well if that was a trick, maybe all of the others were also a trick. Maybe we were deceived, maybe we were lied to. Maybe we've been had.
Then in addition, their are two different mental approaches to these arts. It's very hard for magicians to understand and think from a true mentalsim point of view. It is in direct contrast to magic thinking.
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Andrew Mesmer
New user
New York
11 Posts
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Posted: Apr 23, 2012 11:49pm
I understand the differences, I don't plan on ever mixing the two in the same show. What I'm asking is if I make two separate shows, 1 pure Mentalism and 1 pure Magic, without any overlapping material, will the element of magic still detract from mentalism in the same way just by identifying myself as a magician and a mentalist?
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Decomposed
Eternal Order
Cannot See
10612 Posts
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Posted: Apr 24, 2012 2:29am
If you are going to be a magician, be a good one then. Magician these days has taken a negative direction IMO.
90 seconds of pure laughs without a standing ovation!
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Neil
Elite user
479 Posts
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Posted: Apr 24, 2012 3:20am
Plenty of corporate level entertainers have separate magic and mentalism acts and it works for them. I think this is because they are not terribly well known to the public at large so their image has limited focus. As long as they present a coherent and consistent image for a particular show then that is enough. I think once you get to being properly famous it doesn't work in the sense that you're not as likely to be believed by most people.
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quicknotist
Special user
All this time wasted and still only
699 Posts
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Posted: Apr 24, 2012 3:26am
Be whatever you want to be.
You don't need anyone's permission here.
http://www.regblackwood.com/
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SubconsciousSymbols
Loyal user
Bristol, UK
223 Posts
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Posted: Apr 24, 2012 4:24am
'Like' Reg's comment
'The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious'
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Aaron E
Special user
676 Posts
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Posted: Apr 24, 2012 5:38am
I agree with Bob C and Reg.
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John Raff M
Regular user
Republic of Ireland
179 Posts
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Posted: Apr 24, 2012 6:24am
A young Derren Brown talks about this at the beginning of Pure Effect.
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phillsmiff
Special user
UK
638 Posts
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Posted: Apr 24, 2012 6:33am
Quote:
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On 2012-04-24 03:26, quicknotist wrote:
Be whatever you want to be.
You don't need anyone's permission here.
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Yup.
Additionally: what you are talking about is IMO not a thematic or presentational issue but a marketing one, since you are talking about two different shows. The issue now isn't how you present your shows to audiences but to potential bookers, and that is a whole other thread. (Personally I would recommend treating the mentalism show differently and perhaps offering it as a premium service to customers: 'yeah, people love the magic, but I think perhaps for this event, with your guests... you need something really special. Let me tell you about something I offer to the right customers...' )
Phill
-+: http://bit.ly/creativesolutionsdeck :+-
The unique new approach to cards in mentalism, the Creative Solutions Deck.
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dusty
Loyal user
244 Posts
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Posted: Apr 24, 2012 6:52am
Outside my performance role(s),I am also the director of an Entertainment Agency and I see no end of magicians now branding themselves as Magician/Mentalist. Yes in the current climate work is slow, but I do not believe that they are doing themselves any favours by offering a mixed message performance As already stated; once you do a "trick" in your mentalism set, then you are in danger of the client assuming that every routine is a "trick" and why shouldn't they.
Regards,
Dusty
aka Max Gordon.
Exclusive publications available from:
http://solutions.yolasite.com
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bevbevvybev
Inner circle
2103 Posts
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Posted: Apr 24, 2012 7:35am
Create another persona for the mentalism stuff. Keep it seperate so you can get in the zone. Then see if the two mix either by themselves or by choice.
Doing a 'magic trick' once in the middle of some mentalism can be strange, yet you CAN get away with it, given the right trick.
And doing a mentalism effect in the middle of some magic can be cool. But sometimes all the people remember is the 'bit where you read my mind'.
Stuff which is middle-ground (mental magic / moving object etc) can work in both, but you have to choose wisely.
From experience - if you do a magic trick and a mentalism effect, people will want you to read their mind again. If you do a mentalism effect and some kind of reading, people will want you to do some more readings, and so will their friends.
People like stuff that relates entirely to them. Magic can be about 'showing' and mentalism can be 'involving'. If you can keep both in mind while creating a set (just a small one) then you might be able to weave one into the other.
A lot of it is about keeping both the magic and the mentalism 'almost believable'. As soon as you go into the realms of 'insanely magical' then your mentalism won't feel right next to it. Yet a coin bend, which for some reason appears within the bounds of normality can sit very nicely next to a word reveal.
Experiment.
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