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FTAMagician
Loyal user
291 Posts
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Posted: Apr 30, 2012 6:23pm
I have some fine steel wire (and some larger sizes too) that are the natural shiny silver color but I'd like to use in different magic effects where they'd have to be flat black.
Is there a good method to make the shiny steel wire flat balck where it wouldn't rub off and last also???
Somewhere I remember somebody using "gun black" for something like this but not sure if it'd work for small size wire. Don't think (spray) painting it would work or last long...maybe something like using a black permanent marker ???
Any and all help would be appreciated!!!
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Michael Baker
Inner circle
Near a river in the Midwest
8464 Posts
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Posted: Apr 30, 2012 7:04pm
Perhaps??...
http://www.heatbath.com/catalog/category/black_oxide_finishing
~michael baker
The Magic Company
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Bill Hegbli
Eternal Order
Bill and Bill in Fort Wayne Indiana
12914 Posts
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Posted: Apr 30, 2012 7:16pm
Yes, gun black is used in magic for very thin wires. It does heat up the wire, so it may change the strength of the wire. So depending on what you are using it for, this may or may not be a solution.
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hugmagic
Inner circle
6550 Posts
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Posted: Apr 30, 2012 8:36pm
I seem to recall that the Kellar levi wires were treated with a mixture of iodine and some kind of liver extract. George Johnstone said it smelled like the devil.
I definitely think oxidation is the way to go as it will hold up better.
Richard E. Hughes, Hughes Magic Inc., 352 N. Prospect St., Ravenna, OH 44266 (330)296-4023
www.hughesmagic.com
email-hugmagic@raex.com
Write direct as I will be turning off my PM's.
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thegreatnippulini
Inner circle
of Hell because I've made
2533 Posts
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Posted: May 1, 2012 8:17am
Blueing solutions can be purchased at Cabelas. 4 oz bottle is $12 I think. Warm the item, brush solution, let dry a bit, wipe off. Repeat for deeper finish. Does the wire need to be bent or moved around? Most surface treatments may flake off if so. If not, a REAL easy way to blacken steel is to heat the metal to a dull red or black heat. Immerse the item in a container of used motor oil or linseed oil. The hot surface oxidizes quickly, causing "scale". A low heat will not raise scale, but will allow the oil to penetrate the surface oxidized layer, turning it black. No matter what the surface appearance originally may be, the outcome will always be matte. This treatment is called oil quench patination, is tough to wear off and has been used for centuries by blacksmiths for outdoor iron protection. Another method involves making "guilders paste" with 1 part beeswax, 1 part used motor oil, 1 part turpentine or other shellac. All parts are melted over a low heat (use an old or discarded pot or your wife will kill you). The mixture is poured into an old margerine container. When cooled, now it can be brushed onto the wire at "black" heat (this is a heat that metal will not show incandecent colors, but still hot enough to perform certain heat treatments). Thin wire overheats easily. If you get it white hot it will throw sparks and burn. At this point you will have ruined the steel and need to cut that off and start over.
The Great Nippulini: body piercer, Guinness World Record holder, blacksmith and man with The World's Strongest Nipples! Does the WORLD care? We shall see...
http://www.greatnippulini.com
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Octopus Sun
Special user
Wiggle Wiggle
587 Posts
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Posted: May 1, 2012 11:12am
Quote:
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On 2012-04-30 20:36, hugmagic wrote:
I seem to recall that the Kellar levi wires were treated with a mixture of iodine and some kind of liver extract. George Johnstone said it smelled like the devil.
I definitely think oxidation is the way to go as it will hold up better.
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It's called Liver of Sulfur.
it stink like rotten eggs, there is no need to mix iodine with LoS to achieve the permanent black color.
LoS is the only/safest way to oxidize your metal without any stress.
just dip and wait, wash dry...done.
never heat your wire to change the color, it weakens the wire, making it brittle.
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hugmagic
Inner circle
6550 Posts
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Posted: May 1, 2012 1:30pm
Thanks for the clarification. It is one of those things that bounces around in the back of your head.
I agree any heat with the wire can make it brittle. I have soldered far too much music wire to know this.
Richard
Richard E. Hughes, Hughes Magic Inc., 352 N. Prospect St., Ravenna, OH 44266 (330)296-4023
www.hughesmagic.com
email-hugmagic@raex.com
Write direct as I will be turning off my PM's.
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thegreatnippulini
Inner circle
of Hell because I've made
2533 Posts
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Posted: May 2, 2012 8:06am
Quote:
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never heat your wire to change the color, it weakens the wire, making it brittle.
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This statment shows ignorance of the knowledge of metals. Heat treatments of steels vary from type of steel and heat treat (harden, anneal, temper, etc.). Most available steel wires are low carbon steel. Heating will not "weaken" it, low carbon is impossible to quench hard, therefore it won't make it brittle. Heating and quenching stainless wire anneals it and makes it softer/easier to work. As a matter of fact: cold working ANY steel will work harden the crystalline structure of the material, which DOES, in fact, weaken and embrittle the steel. Bend a paper clip back and forth, you'll see what happens. Heat the clip to orange, it will bend infinitely without injury to the steel while it still holds color. Properly heat treat the SAME clip and it will be as strong as a spring. I work hot steel on a daily basis, I have been working with metals hands-on for almost a decade now, have collected dozens on reference books, worked with just about every ferrous alloy and patination processes. I own my own electroploishing tanks and over $20,000 worth of equipment in my shop. So, when I make a statement, I will stand by it as it is a course of my HANDS-ON personal experience. I do not simply say something that I THINK is right because someone told me, or something read online.
The Great Nippulini: body piercer, Guinness World Record holder, blacksmith and man with The World's Strongest Nipples! Does the WORLD care? We shall see...
http://www.greatnippulini.com
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thegreatnippulini
Inner circle
of Hell because I've made
2533 Posts
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Posted: May 2, 2012 8:41am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-01 13:30, hugmagic wrote:
I agree any heat with the wire can make it brittle. I have soldered far too much music wire to know this. |
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To continue: Richard, there is NO way it is scientifically possible for the paltry heat source of a soldering iron to cause changes in your wire. Music wire IS high carbon, BUT HC steels transformative temp is well over 2,000 degrees F. Your average soldering iron tops out at 800, which is a nice temp for a temper heat treat. It will soften the metal. Rich, if the solder broke, it's because you are using a low temp joining process on a material that likes to be welded, but keep in mind, a solder break is a solder malfunction (wrong flux/filler/heat?), not a base metal issue. I highly doubt that the music wire broke from a solder joint.
The Great Nippulini: body piercer, Guinness World Record holder, blacksmith and man with The World's Strongest Nipples! Does the WORLD care? We shall see...
http://www.greatnippulini.com
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hugmagic
Inner circle
6550 Posts
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Posted: May 2, 2012 10:25am
I respect your expertise in working with metals but who said I am using a common soldering iron. I know about cold joint solder but I also know that when music wire changes color it becomes brittle. When you have soldered as much .025 and .035 music wire as I have, you tend to develop your own conclusions based on experience. I've been doing this a few years also.
Richard
Richard E. Hughes, Hughes Magic Inc., 352 N. Prospect St., Ravenna, OH 44266 (330)296-4023
www.hughesmagic.com
email-hugmagic@raex.com
Write direct as I will be turning off my PM's.
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Octopus Sun
Special user
Wiggle Wiggle
587 Posts
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Posted: May 4, 2012 10:00am
I know all about annealing Nipple, I'm a jeweler and I pull my own wire weekly, I've made miles of hand pulled wire over 35yrs, and a regular ol Magi can't anneal or pull wire wire.
Your statement shows the TRUE ignorance.
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Michael Baker
Inner circle
Near a river in the Midwest
8464 Posts
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Posted: May 4, 2012 10:27am
Jeez... we need a special forum just for p***ing contests.
~michael baker
The Magic Company
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MissMage
New user
89 Posts
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Posted: May 4, 2012 3:10pm
One thing to consider with very thin wire is that even the simplest manipulation of it tends to work harden it. So even though the heating isn't making it brittle, each time it is handled afterward is. For thin wire, even just sliding it through your fingers once work hardens it.
My whole point here is that even though his delivery of the information was rude, Nipp provided accurate information. And I think perhaps people who work regularly with metal wires might equate the heating process to the brittleness because of how closely one might fall after the other. When really this is simply because of the thinness of the wire and how quickly it can go from a dead soft to work hard state.
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ringmaster
Special user
Memphis, Down in Dixie
996 Posts
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Posted: May 5, 2012 7:17pm
"Okito on Magic" says use Iodine.
There is also a poduct from Micro-Mark called Blackit.
I know it's spelled wrong.
http://s237.photobucket.com/albums/ff53/davidsweeney/Parker%20Jenny%20on%20Midway%20of%20Mirth/
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