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leomagnus
Regular user
179 Posts
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Posted: May 5, 2012 6:32pm
Okay, here we go again. The cups and balls. Here's the issue, I'm planning on competing in the IBM close-up competition this summer, and it's time to decide for sure on what material to do. One of the routines I am considering is my magician-only version of the cups and balls routine. My question to all of you is would you as a MAGICIAN in the audience like to see another cups and balls routine? My routine has a MAIN BODY which fools, and entertains as well. Of course it has a bigger effect at the end, I wouldn't really call it a final load though. The reason I call it a magician only routine, is the set-up is a bit of a nightmare, so it's not that commercial. But perfect for a magic competition.
A while back I posted fairly extensively on the problems most routines have. From problems like going in and out of the pocket too much with the final loads, to some routines being just a set-up for the final loads. I asked for different opinions on the problems, and proposals on how to fix them. You can read that thread here.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=457507&forum=115&56
Briefly, I totally disagree that the routine is only a set-up for the final loads. We have to remember that final loads don't mean fruit, or big balls, they mean what you load the cups with at the end of the routine. That could be fruit, but it could also be the smaller balls too, as in David Regal's routine. The fruit under the cups is an effect just as the balls traveling, vanishing, and appearing are effects. The fruit is just a bigger effect, and ending with the biggest effect ends the routine with the audience on an emotional high.
But anyway, back to my main concern. The big question is as a magician, are you tired of cups and balls routines? Would you be able to watch one with an open mind? Would you be thinking "another cups and balls routine?" Also, do you think that I might be marked down for doing a "common" trick like the cups and balls, no matter how unique? The way I see it, you can say "wow, that cups and balls routine is original", or "come on, another cups and balls routine, why not something more original". Do you think the cups and balls are a viable trick for a competition? There are definitely two sides to the cup here.
What do you think? Any advice is greatly appreciated!
Thanks.
-Leo
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Mobius303
Inner circle
Mike Perlman
1043 Posts
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Posted: May 5, 2012 10:39pm
It is viable as a competition routine if it is truly entertaining. It is also viable as long as 2 or more others are not doing the trick as well.
At Magi-fest we were working the R n T 2 booth and heard the competition had 4 or 5 routines in a row that utilized versions of the cups and balls. People got tired of them. The reason this happened was that the person that won in 2011 did a cup and ball routine so others followed his footsteps.
Check what the winner did last year and don't do the same stuff he did. That would be my first advice to you. Second have a back up plan in case you need to make changes in your set.
Mobius
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Pete Biro
V.I.P.
17765 Posts
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Posted: May 6, 2012 1:16am
Nutty Surprise would be new and a fooler.
STAY TOONED... @ www.petebiro.com
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: May 6, 2012 1:20am
You have to decide if you want to win the competition or you want to do the cups and balls.
If you are waiting until this date to figure out what you want to include in your routine, you have already waited too long.
If you MUST do the cups and balls as a contest piece, forget most of what you already know about the cups and balls. Figure out a way to make it original in some way. Remember competition performing is not the same as performing for the real world. Read what Paul Gertner said in Steel and Silver. Read Johnny "Ace" Palmer's thoughts on competition performing.
You have a specific amount of time to do, and that is of primary importance. For that reason alone, I would say to forget the backup plan and go for broke with one particular set. Don't do ANYTHING that was done last year.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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billappleton
Inner circle
Los Gatos, California
1049 Posts
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Posted: May 6, 2012 9:54pm
I would spoof the cups. They have a bunch of preconceptions... Play off that. Read Franks thread carefully, that the cups and balls are boring. You have to know the rules in order to break them. Sitting ducks.
Check out Under Glass
A Clearly Impossible Prediction!
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leomagnus
Regular user
179 Posts
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Posted: May 7, 2012 1:02am
Spoofing the cups is an idea I've been playing with. I've also considered flashing final loads, and then stealing them out somehow. However just to make this clear, I already have a routine, the main question is do I do it in a competition?
-Leo
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AdamChance
Loyal user
299 Posts
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Posted: May 7, 2012 1:50am
I think if you come away from the performance thinking "wow, I've seen the cups and balls before... but I've never seen anything like that!" .... then that's what you want.
so as long as it's something quite different, I think it's a great idea. in fact, if you can come up with something that will really blow people away, I think it's a good thing to use the cups and balls because it will show off your skill and creativity. since so many magicians have done this trick... if you can take it to the next level, that would be an accomplishment.
for example, I think if you just did a good routine... and then instead of a final load at the end, you somehow switched out the cups for paper ones and crushed the apparently once solid cups... that would be cool... but I would probably come away thinking "good cups and balls routine with a surprise ending"... but not exactly anything too new or groundbreaking.
whereas if you had something totally different (just a random idea that probably isn't really possible)... but if you used semi-transparent cups.... and balls that lit up... in combination with d-lites or something like that. that would be the type of thing that I think could be really cool and different... and much more entertaining and special than just another standard cups and balls routine.
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Pete Biro
V.I.P.
17765 Posts
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Posted: May 7, 2012 1:51am
I did that years ago... flashing final loads and stealing 'em out... fooled 'em.
STAY TOONED... @ www.petebiro.com
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shellgame-al
New user
California, USA
96 Posts
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Posted: May 23, 2012 5:38am
I think the Cups & Balls has just a good of a chance as anything else or more. But if it has been seen or even though of before it will not be original. In competition it has got to be original and has to catch everyone off guard. If you get an idea here, it has already been thought of or done. Bill is right the time is your biggest problem. Working out something original takes time, it will never happen overnight. It sure hasn't for me. I would just give your best and if that doesn't win it, hopefully you come away learning how to win the next one. Even losing can be a win, if you walk away learning from it.
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ottphd
Regular user
182 Posts
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Posted: May 23, 2012 8:01am
Listen to what Bill is saying! Frank provided a forum for creative thought and ideas. Read and learn can't go wrong.
Just my thoughts.
Jim
http/www.jimsmagicshop.com
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leomagnus
Regular user
179 Posts
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Posted: May 23, 2012 6:36pm
Thanks for the input.
-Leo
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Corbett
Inner circle
Indiana
1070 Posts
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Posted: May 24, 2012 10:42am
Bill has a great point. Wanting to do the cups and balls, and wanting to win are two entirely different things. I have competed in a fair amount of competitions, some successfully, and some not so much. But originality and something very "fresh" are what judges look for in competition routines. This past winter, I competed in close-up at a very large convention, and was only one of two people that did NOT present the cups and balls as my routine. In other words, this routine, while it is one of the very great classics in our art, and fantastic as it is for laymen, it just doesn't play well for an audience of magicians, especially so in a competition. This is just my opinion, and you can take it or leave it.
I will also add that at this past April's 4F, there were a number of presentations of the cups and balls, that magicians were preparing for their FISM acts. Sadly, I just did not find them to be "over the top" entertaining.
For me personally, the exceptions to the above, are watching the cups routines by someone like Gertner or Shawn Farquhar, which have very unique and very big surprises at the end. Shawn's routine of course ends with all of his cups being solid. Even as a magician, I love watching both of these routines, as I think most do. So the question you have to ask yourself is, "Is my routine on par with a Gertner or Farquhar, to the point of really knocking the socks off of other magicians and judges?" And if not, perhaps this is not the best routine for an IBM competition. Again, all of my statements are based solely on the issue of competing. Cups and balls will always be one of the great routines in magic, and personally very fun for magicians to perform. But is it the best to compete with? That's the question.
CORBETT D. TROYER
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Bill Palmer
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
23786 Posts
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Posted: May 24, 2012 11:16pm
Johnny "ACE" Palmer wrote an essay on how he prepared for his competition when he won the big prize (IBM Gold Cups, I think -- it's been a while). He prepared for a couple of years. He tweaked the routine and tweaked it some more. He has explained the whole process. I don't know of a link to this essay, but I'm sure someone will come up with it.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC
My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."
www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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