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Tanay
Regular user
132 Posts
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Posted: May 9, 2012 9:53am
Hi guys,
I haven't posted in the card magic forum in a while, but I thought that as I have been working on my classic pass for the past year and a half (or thereabouts), I would record a video and get some critique. I know that this is the only way to improve...
Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hspwt7MKHbs
The movements are relatively fast since I am trying to effect a colour change. However I have taken advice from many people (such as Aaron Fisher) and try to execute the pass the moment the hands contact the deck.
At the end, the pass face down (as a control) would NOT be done while the audience is looking at the deck. So I have tried to minimise peripheral action by again doing the pass silently and efficiently.
I would really really appreciate your thoughts and any critique 
Thanks a lot!!
[NB if you prefer to see it without the music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIigDV5PdYs]
Tanay
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tenchu
Special user
Europe
545 Posts
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Posted: May 9, 2012 10:02am
Very nice Ninja Crotch Pass!
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Angel1998
Regular user
Ho Chi Minh City,Vietnam
138 Posts
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Posted: May 9, 2012 11:25am
Really really nice Classic Pass. Nice job man
"Learn, learn more, learn forever"
Lenin
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Magic-Daniel
Special user
Denmark
682 Posts
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Posted: May 9, 2012 11:35am
It's okay, but A LOT of tension...
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Justin W.
Loyal user
222 Posts
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Posted: May 9, 2012 11:42am
Quote:
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So I have tried to minimise peripheral action by again doing the pass silently and efficiently.
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But there is no hiding the fact that's a large, jerking motion that you use to effect/cover the pass. There's too much unnatural movement and tension for this to fly, even in the periphery. If you follow Erdnase's advice, the pass should be executed with the hands AT REST.
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p-n_junction
New user
52 Posts
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Posted: May 9, 2012 12:17pm
Too much tension, relax.
You sad that as a control you will execute the move when a spectator doesn't look at the deck, but even though she still will notice that something is going on.
Also the idea that the pass should be executed when the hands contact the deck is not the case, for some people it works, for some it doesn't.
But the way you're doing this, To say the least, is very unnatural.
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gdw
Inner circle
4428 Posts
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Posted: May 9, 2012 3:30pm
The idea of the pass occurring when the hands come together is, in part, so that you aren't sitting there holding the deck with both hands for no reason.
The hands should come together for a reason, and should not sit like that for any extended time. Otherwise it would be suspicious.
You definitely shouldn't be letting good the deck with your upper hand just to grab it again and do the pass.
You have nice speed, but as mentioned, too much tension. Have you read Aaron's book? Also, Tyler Wilson has a GREAT video on the pass on his website, and it's free. It's mentioned in a thread in the Workers section I believe.
March 22, 2011, our beautiful baby girl, Evelyn, was born.
It's a brave new world, get with it, or get out of the way.
Man has evolved, "god" is extinct.
I won't forget you Robert.
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MagicofDesperado
Veteran user
357 Posts
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Posted: May 9, 2012 4:42pm
Yeah I think that probably through the obsession with speed and the invisible, burnable pass rhetoric that pulling the top packet around became "the way". A study of Erdnase implies that it's more like opposite pressures, as in the SWE. That way all the high-tension gripping and pulling is eliminated and more slipping etc occurs. I'd look at Dai Vernon's ideas as well in the Inner Card Trilogy too as he has some really interesting points.
Dave
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Steven Youell
V.I.P.
3866 Posts
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Posted: May 9, 2012 4:50pm
Quote:
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On 2012-05-09 11:42, Justin W. wrote:
If you follow Erdnase's advice, the pass should be executed with the hands AT REST. |
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Justin-- I don't doubt you here but you may want to clarify. AT REST may seem contradictory to the finger movements needed to accomplish the pass... this could be because language changes over time?
SEY
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BrandonWilliams
Regular user
195 Posts
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Posted: May 9, 2012 11:04pm
Spend less time on flourishes and more time on technique, then post another video in six months.
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Justin W.
Loyal user
222 Posts
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Posted: May 9, 2012 11:13pm
Quote:
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]Justin-- I don't doubt you here but you may want to clarify. AT REST may seem contradictory to the finger movements needed to accomplish the pass... this could be because language changes over time?
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Smiling Mule from the Phantom Notebooks blog made a better distinction. "He wants the packets to transpose in a flash, with the hands seemingly at rest, and with the packets passing through the least possible space."
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Billy-one
Special user
IOWA
938 Posts
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Posted: May 9, 2012 11:31pm
Long story short, if it looks like your trying to make someone flinch....your prob not doing the pass correctly. It doesn't matter how quick the actually transpo happens, what matters is that no attention should be called torwards the deck nor borderline spastic shoulder tension.
respect,
Billy
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zaki_rafih99
Regular user
163 Posts
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Posted: May 10, 2012 2:49am
It is quick but also looks like *something* is happening. of course you could say that we KNOW something is happening and therefore "see" it.. but I also SEE something happening. not bad.. just need to work on a couple of things. you have the underlying move and speed down.
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gdw
Inner circle
4428 Posts
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Posted: May 10, 2012 7:31am
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=462988&forum=2&23
Go there for how to access Tyler's video that I mentioned. It is more than worth it.
March 22, 2011, our beautiful baby girl, Evelyn, was born.
It's a brave new world, get with it, or get out of the way.
Man has evolved, "god" is extinct.
I won't forget you Robert.
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lunatik
Inner circle
Date me before I become famous!
2356 Posts
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Posted: May 10, 2012 9:04am
If it wasn't for being done face up, it would fly by 99% of all spectators with normal patter and misdirection. Most who critique cant do it as well as they say it should be done. We can critique their pass to no end as well. Will anyone ever do it perfect? No, there's always someone who won't like it for some reason or another! For those who say that they can 'see' when the move was done, well duh! It's only obvious that you know what's going on and what to look for! Show me a pass that I cant see and ill give you some money. Great job man, keep up the good work!
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
Date me before I become famous!
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MaxfieldsMagic
Inner circle
Instead of practicing, I made
1964 Posts
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Posted: May 10, 2012 10:09am
I think it looks great. The "tension" others have mentioned, where you're cocking the deck, doesn't seem to me to be a huge issue. Why shouldn't there be a little tension - you're making a card magically pop up through the deck, and maybe that requires a little concentration and effort. Watch Harry Potter when he's trying to do a "big spell" with his wand - he looks like he's trying to deadlift four times his body weight.
It helps that you've developed great speed, and we can see the top of the deck the entire time.
Also like your flourishes - particularly the LePaul spread, and the top card sliding down into the middle of the deck. That kind of spice really dresses up the effect, IMO.
I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.
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Tanay
Regular user
132 Posts
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Posted: May 10, 2012 3:00pm
Hey guys,
Thank you to everyone for the posts, they really helped.
Please do bear in mind that the main purpose of the pass in the video was as a colour change. This needs a fast execution, and the tension was probably due to the fact that I was trying to make it quick. But I thought that for a colour change, the tension was justified in the movement required to effect the change. I mean, for a colour change, something has to take place for the magic to happen? (i.e. riffling the deck, or some movement)
I do admit though that there was a little bit too much tension BEFORE the pass was executed, and I have been working on eliminating that since then. Especially for the control, I recognise that the tension would give away the move.
Also I know that I was moving way too fast and this would become suspicious. I will work on that too.
Justin, my core technique is actually taken straight from Erdnase, with the pass being accomplished by opposite pressures, and also there is NO movement of the right fingers which cover the pack in the execution. However I know that in Erdnase, the hands are at rest however in the video I have a large movement to cover the pass. This is only to execute the pass as a colour change, not as a sleight.
Glenn, I have read Aaron's book, and sometimes he says the pass should be done the moment your hands come together. For the video, I did take my hands off the deck only to put them back on again. However in real life there will be a pause in between...
Maxfields, thanks for your comment, I appreciate it what you say was exactly what I was thinking, since the move is done as a colour change so some covering agent / tension is okay.
To everyone else, I will definitely work on the tension issue and making the pass as a control more natural and smooth. Thanks for the comments!
I would welcome any more advice/comments/critique as it will only help me to improve further...
Thanks again!
Tanay
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Justin W.
Loyal user
222 Posts
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Posted: May 10, 2012 4:18pm
Quote:
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However I know that in Erdnase, the hands are at rest however in the video I have a large movement to cover the pass. This is only to execute the pass as a colour change, not as a sleight.
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My comment was in reference to you using it as a control, which you said you do use and exhibit at the end of the video. Unfortunately, the control looks identical to the color change, and in that regard is lacking.
Also, you should eliminate any get-ready actions.
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Tanay
Regular user
132 Posts
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Posted: May 10, 2012 5:53pm
Quote:
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On 2012-05-10 16:18, Justin W. wrote:
Quote:
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However I know that in Erdnase, the hands are at rest however in the video I have a large movement to cover the pass. This is only to execute the pass as a colour change, not as a sleight.
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My comment was in reference to you using it as a control, which you said you do use and exhibit at the end of the video. Unfortunately, the control looks identical to the color change, and in that regard is lacking.
Also, you should eliminate any get-ready actions.
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Yep, I understand...as a control it was quite a give-away. I will work on that, trying to make it as soft as possible, with a light touch.
Would you have any advice on eliminating the get-ready? With the Erdnase method, I have found that with no get-ready (from normal mechanic's grip but with an enlarged fourth finger break) I can't create the pressure needed on the left thumb that easily...
Tanay
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Billy-one
Special user
IOWA
938 Posts
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Posted: May 10, 2012 6:36pm
I feel like, well, confused? As a color change the pass is not so hot. As a control the pass is....not so hot.
If you are doing the pass to show other magicians how technically proficiant you are, well then you will get the responses youve already received.
1) Too much tension. This is the downfall of most classic passes.
2) You wrote something about when doing a color change the "jerkyness" is validated...this is wrong (IMO). Why is this wrong? Well, a color change is something that should be asthetically pleasing....do you think the motion your upper body produces when doing the move is nice on the eyes, the tempo, or rythem?
I don't mean to come off rude or insulting, it just ticks me off when someone is looking to be critiqued on a move that is only needed within the confides of a magic clube or youtube.
Billy
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p-n_junction
New user
52 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 7:01am
Tanay, one more thing.
Speed is not the key point for pass, but important thing is smoothness.
I would highly recommend you to watch 3 performers doing pass - David Williamson, Akira Fuji, Jonathan Kamm.
I don't know if David Williamson, which is one of my favorit artists, tiping the classic pass in any source, but I would higly recommend you to have a look at him performing the move.
Akira Fuji relesed A DVD on the classic pass, but I don't have it. But he tips a classic pass on EMC 2011 and this is very useful.
Jonathan Kamm have a video tutorial on the move, it's very good one, he explains a lot of important points on how to do and how to improve your pass, highly recommended, imo, this is the best source.
So, you defenetly should take a look.
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Vincero
Veteran user
New Zealand
373 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 7:26am
I didn't think it was that bad. I don't like the idea of the pass as a colour change though... and that applies for almost any rendition of it.
There is an ugly buckling motion occuring in your handling though... what that's about I don't know. If you relaxed your hands it'd look much better. You seem to be (really) squeezing the deck. The whole movement needs to be relaxed too... and that involves more than just your hands. Loosen up and it will be much more convincing. Either way, it's a hard move to pull off on camera - there's nothing to hide behind.
Zac
"Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell; And in the lowest deep a lower deep
Still threat'ning to devour me opens wide, To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heav'n" -John Milton, (Paradise Lost)
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Steven Youell
V.I.P.
3866 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 9:58am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 07:01, p-n_junction wrote:
Jonathan Kamm have a video tutorial on the move, it's very good one... |
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IMO, that's one of the worst tutorials you can use. He's got multiple tells, among other things. Example: watch his left forefinger shoot out when he does the move.
I would suggest the tutorials by Jason England on Theory 11. Those have some solid teaching and Jason has a stellar reputation.
http://www.theory11.com/tricks/classic-pass-jason-england.php
SEY
P.S. I'm only saying this because I don't want to make it to my 70's and see EVERYONE with tells. 
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EldonFowler
Regular user
110 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 10:50am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 07:01, p-n_junction wrote:
I would highly recommend you to watch 3 performers doing pass - David Williamson, Akira Fuji, Jonathan Kamm.
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I second this!
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Engali
Veteran user
309 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 12:43pm
Peter Duffie's Riffle Pass is quite good to study as well, if only to see the unique angle he uses for the shift as well as how he completes or finishes the move.
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p-n_junction
New user
52 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 1:10pm
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 09:58, Steven Youell wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 07:01, p-n_junction wrote:
Jonathan Kamm have a video tutorial on the move, it's very good one... |
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IMO, that's one of the worst tutorials you can use.
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Are we talking about the same thing )))?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwLbGnLLEV0&feature=plcp
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Steven Youell
V.I.P.
3866 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 2:16pm
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 13:10, p-n_junction wrote:
Are we talking about the same thing? |
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PM Sent.
SEY
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Steven Youell
V.I.P.
3866 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 2:29pm
General Advice
The way to tell if someone is an expert on the Classic Pass:
They should be able to do is slowly as well as fast.
SEY
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Billy-one
Special user
IOWA
938 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 5:08pm
If your worried about small tells like a finger flashing out, then your only doing magic for the guys at local magic clubs. IMO, I can double under cut invisably for the most part, not sure why anyone would be concerned about little finger flares.....however, when your shoulders convulse, that's a bit of a problem. Also, why doesn't anyone film the pass while talking? TO me this is the biggest tell when doing a pass in real life.
I will place the card in the middle of the deck and in a molment.....(passing)........it comes back to the top.
Billy
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Steven Youell
V.I.P.
3866 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 6:49pm
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 17:08, Billy-one wrote:
If your worried about small tells like a finger flashing out, then your only doing magic for the guys at local magic clubs.
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I stared at that for five minutes because I could not believe how someone could post something that ridiculous in a public forum.
Really? Marlo, Vernon, Skinner, Roger Klause, Larry Jennings, Michael Vincent, Darwin Ortiz, Juan Tamariz, Ron Bauer, and about 100 other world famous guys all worry about such small things. They only do magic for the guys at their local magic clubs? Really? Shoot, I thought they were all really, really good magicians.
Darn. Guess you know more about Sleight of Hand then they do, huh? Oh wait... you don't. So let me revise your statement so it actually has some truth to it:
If you don't worry about small tells like a finger flashing out, they you'll only do magic for the guys at local magic clubs. And you'll never advance further than a tyro. And if you post such clap-trap on the web, you should probably read more.
SEY
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