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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13325 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 3:17am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18030105
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1406 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 5:47am
It is for this very reason that there will be no solution to the problems we face today on a global level, unless we adopt something that has never been seen before globally.
Politics has not worked, and neither has any of the traditional religions. They've all been tried and tested and unfortunately cannot bring people of all cultures, faiths and nationalities together. "Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead."
ITS TIME FOR CHANGE 
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13325 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 6:37am
Ah love! Could thou and I with fate conspire, to grasp this sorry scheme of things entire, would not we shatter it to bits and then, remold it nearer to the heart's desire?
Edward Fitzgerald
The Rutalyat of Omar Khayyam
Said the Pear Shaped Creatures to each other as they watched the cold war end.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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Woland
Special user
640 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 6:54am
People often wonder what is war good for? It all depends, I guess. It was war that made the American colonies a free nation, war that freed the slaves, war that stopped National-Socialism, Fascism, and Japanese Imperialism, and it was Charles Martel's heavy infantry that kept the jihadist caliphate south of the Pyrenees.
Moreover, I think that the pleasant daydream of bringing "people of all cultures, faiths and nationalities together" has a totalitarian nightmare aspect to it, which often comes to the fore. What we need is not another ideology that seeks to subsume all others and submerge all people under it, but rather the recognition that we should let other people do their own thing, and understand that we shouldn't necessarily interfere in every detail of other people's lives.
Unfortunately, it is the thrill of shattering to bits the established order that really excites the fanatic, and not the remolding. Although the remolding is often even more cruel and more wicked than the shattering.
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Pakar Ilusi
Inner circle
4631 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 6:54am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 05:47, kambiz wrote:
Politics has not worked, and neither has any of the traditional religions. They've all been tried and tested and unfortunately cannot bring people of all cultures, faiths and nationalities together.
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The truth will set us free.
But truth is difficult to swallow if you're not willing to break with "traditions".
To have faith to let go of that which holds us back is very painful.
I foresee not much changing except a revolution in education and critical thinking emerges.
Some say this want to face truth to unite is spreading false hope, but in the words of someone I look up to...
"There's nothing false, about hope."
Furthermore...
I predict that the Internet is what will bring it about... 
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1406 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 8:23am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 06:54, Woland wrote:
People often wonder what is war good for? It all depends, I guess. It was war that made the American colonies a free nation, war that freed the slaves, war that stopped National-Socialism, Fascism, and Japanese Imperialism, and it was Charles Martel's heavy infantry that kept the jihadist caliphate south of the Pyrenees.
Moreover, I think that the pleasant daydream of bringing "people of all cultures, faiths and nationalities together" has a totalitarian nightmare aspect to it, which often comes to the fore. What we need is not another ideology that seeks to subsume all others and submerge all people under it, but rather the recognition that we should let other people do their own thing, and understand that we shouldn't necessarily interfere in every detail of other people's lives.
Unfortunately, it is the thrill of shattering to bits the established order that really excites the fanatic, and not the remolding. Although the remolding is often even more cruel and more wicked than the shattering.
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Woland, if I may I would like to address two aspects of your post.
1. Yes, war was responsible for a lot of the freedoms, and changes for the better that we see in the world today. However, the outcomes of war are far mor apparent for the suffering that they have brought on millions of lives. In this modern era, with the advances of psychology, social studies and the advances in science which recognizes our essential oneness, war is no longer a viable option for an increasingly evolving and maturing global civilization. In the near furture, war is the extremely last resort. It will still happen on the rare occasion, however, less and less frequently, until it is eventually banished into the annals of human history.
2. While you may think that a global community which embraces people from all cultures, religious backgrounds and nationalities is rather totalitarian, may I remind you that there is a living, breathing example of such a global coimmunity which is EXACTLY that, yet there is no totalitarianism evident whatsoever. Members of this community are present on every single nation, island and territory on the planet and from every religious background. Within this community, they are encouraged to embrace the harmony seen within all religions and yet there is no individual leader. It is run democratically and is an example of what the future global civiliaztion will look like, if not within our lifetimes, then within our children or grandchildren's lifetime.
It does not interfere in every detail of people's lives, and recognizes the freedoms of all, yet all are agreeably bound by a way of life that they strive to live by, without judgement or hierarchical forcefulness. This is not a daydream, it is a living reality today
The world is ready for change, and a viable alternative is thriving should people wish to examine it. There is nothing to hide, its totally visible for all to see and question
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13325 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 9:00am
This viable alternative?
http://www.scribd.com/bigearpublishing/d/76932723-The-First-Global-Revolution-Club-of-Romes-1991-Report
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1406 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 9:26am
Yes Tommy
This is a component part of the viable alternative, it forms part of the whole. The "whole",as it were is doing a lot more than what the First Global Revolution Club are involved in....
http://www.green-agenda.com/spiritualunitednations.html
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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Woland
Special user
640 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 9:56am
Hi Kam,
Thanks for kindly considering and responding to my note.
1) Although we may understand that war is not a "viable" option for us, when we are attacked, and war is being waged against us, war may just be the most generous, humane, and appropriate ("skillful") response. I think that war is less usual now across the whole world than it has been in the past, but war is still an everyday affair. In Congo alone, and in the neighboring countries, more than 5 million people have been killed in an ongoing war that our Western elites and Western protesters never seem to think about.
2) About the "Green Agenda," the Lucis Trust, and the U.N. there is a lot more to be said. Short of time, let me just say now, that I think the site to which you linked betrays an undercurrent of the most cruel and vicious sort of totalitarianism imaginable. But your mileage may vary!
See you later.
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1406 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 10:01am
Hi Woland,
When I was talking about a global non-totalitarian community, I was not in any way referring to the Green Agenda. If you look up, it was Tommy that referred to that. I just said that the Green Agenda is an initiative that has links with the community I was referring to.
No, the community I'm referring to, the global bahai community is totally non-totalitarian.
I have no real knowledge of the Green Agenda, it seems to be just an initiative of several individuals, it in no way represents a community, it seems quite elitist actually, but I may be totally wrong, I'm not too read up on the Green Agenda
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1406 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 10:09am
P.s. I completely agree that war in some cases is an unavoidable reality. I think it folly of me to deny that
However, these things will pass....globally we are maturing rapidly. Times are a changing my friend, and I assure you there will be a day less than 5 generations from now where all arms will be relinquished completely and the essential organic unity of the globe and all its inhabitants will be recognized
“the oneness of humanity implies an organic change in the structure of present-day society, a change such as the world has not yet experienced. It calls for no less than the reconstruction and the demilitarization of the whole civilized world – a world organically unified in all the essential aspects of life, its political machinery, its spiritual aspiration, its trade and finance, its script and language.”
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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GlenD
Inner circle
LosAngeles, Ca
1145 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 10:34am
What's wrong with acknowledging a threat? Especially one that openly proclaims it's goals of your destruction! If we cannot do that then we've already lost.
Glen
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin
"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1406 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 10:43am
Did anyone say that we shouldn't acknowledge a threat Glen?
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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balducci
Veteran user
Canada
378 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 10:59am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 03:17, tommy wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18030105
"The course taught officers there was no such thing as moderate Islam and that they should consider the religion their enemy."
"It advocated "total war" against all the world's Muslims, including possible nuclear attacks on the holy cities of Mecca and Medina and the wiping out civilian populations."
"International laws protecting civilians in wartime are “no longer relevant”"
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And some wonder why there is so much trouble winning hearts and minds in the Middle East.
I'm astonished anyone would defend this course, especially after Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Martin Dempsey, says that it is "counter to our values of appreciation for religious freedom and cultural awareness" and "just objectionable, academically irresponsible".
Given that about 1% of Americans are Muslim, presumably the "total war" this course advocates would quite possibly lead to a new American Civil War along the way. And a Civil War far worse than the last one. Have fun with that.
If anyone missed it, the original Wired article is worth reading.
Meanwhile.
"We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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GlenD
Inner circle
LosAngeles, Ca
1145 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 11:00am
I was just responding to the posted link! The reporter seems apalled over what was or is allegedly being taught at the military school, Kam. My feeling is that there is some justification for it, is all. I don't agree with all the lets get together and make everybody in the world the same type of fantasyland that was becoming the focus of this thread. That's just my opinion on that concept.
Glen
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin
"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
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mastermindreader
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
6066 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 11:01am
I am having a serious dilemma here. I agree with both Kam and Woland!
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1406 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 11:09am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 11:01, mastermindreader wrote:
I am having a serious dilemma here. I agree with both Kam and Woland!
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We just need to bring Slim King into this and we can all have a 
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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mastermindreader
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
6066 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 11:15am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 11:09, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 11:01, mastermindreader wrote:
I am having a serious dilemma here. I agree with both Kam and Woland!
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We just need to bring Slim King into this and we can all have a
Kam
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I think we ought to break out the bong and have a pow wow.
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1406 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 11:16am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 11:00, GlenD wrote:
I was just responding to the posted link! The reporter seems apalled over what was or is allegedly being taught at the military school, Kam. My feeling is that there is some justification for it, is all. I don't agree with all the lets get together and make everybody in the world the same type of fantasyland that was becoming the focus of this thread. That's just my opinion on that concept.
Glen
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Ah I see Glen, I'm with you now
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 11:00, GlenD wrote:
I don't agree with all the lets get together and make everybody in the world the same type of fantasyland ....
Glen
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Nobody is saying that we should make everybody the same....that really is a fantasyland. However, if you're looking for a viable, organic community that can model an alternative for the globe to look at where the diversity of religion, culture, language and community are cherished, then all I am saying is that there is a community of that nature for all to inspect.
See for yourself....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGV3zrSZrfo&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLFC4DE67E6CA10F8B
I think its completely unique in the earth's history
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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mastermindreader
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
6066 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 11:16am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 11:15, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 11:09, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 11:01, mastermindreader wrote:
I am having a serious dilemma here. I agree with both Kam and Woland!
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We just need to bring Slim King into this and we can all have a
Kam
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I think we ought to break out the bong and have a pow wow. All problems will be solved and world peace achieved.
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1406 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 11:27am
LOL....mate, they had it good in the 60's huh?
Hahahahahah
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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Woland
Special user
640 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 11:37am
Hi Kam,
I've been away from my workstation. I would have responded to you immediately, but I have also enjoyed reading the ensuing comments. (Thanks, Bob!) I have absolutely nothing against the worldwide Baha'i community, and I am deeply sympathetic with the trials and tribulations of the Baha'i community in Iran.
What I am concerned about is first, fealty to the UN, an unelected, unaccountable bureaucracy that represents what is to me the greatest evil of the 20th century, the evil of elites imposing their own particular rules and views on vast numbers of people they do not represent and do not care about. Second, the "green agenda" is a smokescreen designed to provide a rationale for imposing a totalitarian socialist social and economic polity on the entire world. In other words, rule by an unaccountable, self-perpetuating bureaucracy. So you can easily see why the UN and the "green agenda" go so well together.
And I am not sure, balducci, that the Second World War could have been brought to a more successful conclusion in Europe, had Eisenhower and Montgomery taken sufficient care to make sure the officers and men (and women) under their command were deeply cognizant of the legitimate grievances of the German working class, traditional aspects of Teutonic society and its understandable desire to preserve its racial heritage, and the need to try to understand things from the enemy's point of view before trying to achieve victory.
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mastermindreader
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
6066 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 11:48am
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 11:27, kambiz wrote:
LOL....mate, they had it good in the 60's huh?
Hahahahahah
Kam
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I'm still there and we still do!
Everyone's invited!
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1406 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 12:04pm
Thanks for that Woland.
I totaly agree with you in regards to the UN. It is an institution that has a lot of maturing to do, and hopefully it will evolve to address the concerns you have outlined.
However, let me share some information with you in regards to the Baha'i Faith. In its core, it has nothing to do with the UN. The Faith uses the UN as a vehicle to promote and educate others on its spiritual principles. It engages in the UN's NGO component for purposes of sustainable and socio-economic development projects within developing countries. Nothing more, nothing less
As regards to the Green Agenda, I have no real idea who they are...I learnt about them tonight through tommy's post. They do seem to have picked up on some of the Baha'i principles and I see one of their members is a Baha'i, but there is no affiliation with that organisation in terms of it being a component of the Baha'i Faith.
I guess, for me, the Baha'i community is a giant global experiment. Its still in its early, formative stages, but it definitely is a sustainable and viable alternative system of governance for the world to observe and learn from (and many are learning from it). I think the real tests for its viability will come over the next 9-13 years when it is expected to undergo mass global expansion and growth. It will stretch the resources of the community to educate and foster understanding as to how the community functions, however having observed the community from within since I was 15 years old (which is when I discovered the Faith) I am confident it will be successful.
The world at large will gradually follow suit, naturally and organically as it moves towards the unerring realisation that the globe is just one homeland for us all
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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Woland
Special user
640 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 1:50pm
Thanks, Kam! I understand that the Baha'i Faith has nothing to do with the UN, and I did not mean to imply that, if I did. The site to which you linked included praise for the UN, the Lucis Trust, the "Green Agenda," and the Baha'i Faith, however.
I congratulate you on remaining constant and faithful, and for your conviction that the Truth which you know will gradually and peaceably be propagated and adopted.
If I may add one comment to the original post, I have not seen the trainings or the training material to which the BBC's article refers, and I would not necessarily consider the BBC a "go to" source for reporting about the American military. (Or the British military, for that matter.)
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13325 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 2:38pm
Nero
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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Pakar Ilusi
Inner circle
4631 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 2:48pm
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 11:00, GlenD wrote:
I was just responding to the posted link! The reporter seems apalled over what was or is allegedly being taught at the military school, Kam. My feeling is that there is some justification for it, is all.
Glen
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There is justification.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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landmark
Inner circle
By now they've deleted all but
2869 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 3:43pm
Quote:
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On 2012-05-11 10:09, kambiz wrote:
However, these things will pass....globally we are maturing rapidly. Times are a changing my friend, and I assure you there will be a day less than 5 generations from now where all arms will be relinquished completely and the essential organic unity of the globe and all its inhabitants will be recognized
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With all due respect, the only way that all arms would be relinquished in 5 generations is if a substantial number of homo sapiens were wiped out, leaving no one left to bear arms. I don't know if we're capable of making it to 3 generations frankly.
Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.
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Woland
Special user
640 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 3:50pm
Thank you, Pakar. I am not so apocalyptic, landmark.
Two minor points: first, it has been the usual military policy of the United States to wage "total war" since at least the time of the War Between the States. The military aims of the United States have usually been to demand "unconditional surrender," and the United States have not usually hesitated to escalate a war as far as possible in order to achieve that.
Second, when the United States has achieved unconditional victory over their opponents, the results have usually been beneficial to both sides. Since 1945, Germany and Japan have enjoyed the freest, most democratic, and most peaceful societies they have known in all of their recorded history, in large part because they did undergo total war and because the United States did what was necessary to compel their unconditional surrender.
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Pakar Ilusi
Inner circle
4631 Posts
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Posted: May 11, 2012 4:10pm
People love to fight. Just for the sake of fighting sometimes.
Even when there is no need for it.
Watch combat sports. Fencing to the UFC. We love it, innately.
We have monks who fight.
When they actually have things to protect, they'll fight for it, brutally.
Justifications to fight exist for everyone if they look for it.
They worry this will happen even before it happens, so they get ready for the fight.
This is just the nature of the beast.
And...
We are the beast.
War is the culmination of this.
At least I think so.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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