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mndude
Elite user
404 Posts
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Posted: May 14, 2012 5:44pm
I've heard of different churches are concerned of black magic, Ouiji boards, mediums, etc. I always thought there may be something to it. But now after spending much time seeing thousands of illusionists, mentalists, hypnotists discussing how to trick people I'm starting to think that the world
is probably just a boring place and no real magic, mind reading, or ESP exists. Has anyone here ever see anything that might make you think differently?
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harris
Inner circle
Harris Deutsch
6140 Posts
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Posted: May 15, 2012 9:18am
To us it might be like magic, but it is still natural for God. He was, is and will be.
Only the Lord does the supernatural. ..Some people believe they ended a long long time ago, and yes I still believe in miracles and healing.
God is good all the time....and all the time, God is Good!
Hope to see some of you at the Shawnee, Kansas FCM's training days in August.
love brother Harris
still too old to know everything
Harris Deutsch
aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com
music, magic and marvelous toys
http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u
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MagicBus
Inner circle
Kalamazoo, Michigan
2263 Posts
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Posted: May 15, 2012 1:11pm
Mndude- I again will go into "defensive" mode here, but have absolutely no idea what your post has to do with "The Good News" section of the FCM on The Magic Café'. FCMers of course do not do "real magic"- and yes- it is not within the realm of the basic tenents of Christianity to be involved with the occult or black magic. That obviously is not what we are about.
In short, I don't think really there are ANY sections on The Magic Café' that deal with your question- as this entire web site is about discussing and enjoying conjuring, hocus pocus, "mentalism", card slights, escapes, etc. and has never been about ghosts and goblins or "black" magic.
As far as I know, no FCMer ever has claimed to be a "real" mind reader. If they did, that would be gullible hogwash and I'd be first in line to ask them to try to read my blank slate of a noggin. Maybe posting to a Harry Potter true fan site might get you the feedback you are looking for (if you are not just jerking our collective chain anyway with your non-FCM related post).
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rmann
New user
Milton VT and a forum newbie with only
86 Posts
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Posted: May 15, 2012 5:34pm
@mndude...I may be getting myself into a morass here, but I will attempt to answer your question.
As you can tell, the very question can get people into defense posture, perhaps because many of us have been approached rather aggresively by well-meaning church people who disagree with the whole concept of 'Gospel Magic", either assuming that we are deceiving people or that we are dabbling with black powers. We ARE deceiving people in fact, but only in the sense that any performing artist deceives people. An actor who plays another person on-screen is deceiving people just as well, but we still watch movies like "Courageous" and tell people it is worth seeing. We NEVER claim to have real power to perform supernatural magic, and we use our arts to point back to God. As for the other point, as Christians we must acknowledge that there are things that happen 'magically', which we cannot explain by other than supernatural means.
If you do indeed believe in the Bible you can find examples of people performing feats which do not apparently conform to the laws of nature. In a logical and apologetic sense, these MUST emanate from one of two sources of supernatural power, either God or Satan. God specifically rejects the use of spiritual power which does not serve to honor and glorify Him. In the Old Testament He is quite pointed in His admonition towards witches and false prophets...to say the least. Miracles attributed to God always (ALWAYS) point back to Him. Moses with His staff, the dividing of the Red Sea, the dividing of the Jordan River by Joshua, the miracles of Elijah and Elisha, the miracles of Jesus and His Apostles in the New Testament. There are also several accounts of people who performed magic in the sense we use it here on the Café...strictly a performance by using tricks and effects. There is even one account of a person trying to BUY the Holy Spirit, apparently thinking He was simply a magical effect like the "Cup and Balls".
Does 'magic' exist today? From a Christian perspective, the question would be "do miracles happen today"? The answer would most certainly be a resounding 'Yes!'. A changed life is a miracle. A healing is a miracle. Are there things unexplained by science (magic) which happens without the Hand of God? I believe, yes there are. But what is the source? It is from the kingdom of darkness.
Is there magic in the sense of Harry Potter, perhaps, where the source is a set of laws which is supernatural, yet not of God nor of darkness...solely at the command of man? No, there is not. In short, all things which happen along this line can be put into three categories. It is from God, it is from Satan or it is non-supernatural and is from the mind of man (manipulations, magical effects and tricks, etc).
Is the world a boring place? Not in my eyes...the miracles of God are everywhere, if you only open your eyes to see them. How could that be boring?
Ray
_
Ray
"...to Him who alone does great wonders, His love endures forever." Ps 136:4
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Amazing Binky
Regular user
Lancaster,OH
162 Posts
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Posted: May 15, 2012 6:21pm
Real magic is when my Income Tax return arrives and my car doesn't break down that very same week. 
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hestonsmagic
New user
79 Posts
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Posted: May 16, 2012 4:18pm
Mndude So I find myself wondering what the true meaning of your question is.... Is there ghosts, goblins, demons, and true Harry Potters running around on earth? Are you asking about spiritual warfare and if we have actually observed it?
Or are you asking if when I do a mind reading trick do I really read their mind? Or how to approach a church that is questioning magic?
Duane Laflin once opened a show in Portland OR with an explanation that he was not a magician but an illusionist, and that he was not doing anything that could not be logically explained. He was much more graceful in his way of putting it but it rubbed off on my. When I get churches or people approaching me suggesting that doing magic is the work of Satan and wrong –
I simply reply in a similar manner to what Duane had said that night I heard him… but I add a question…. I was given the gift to entertain with illusions and spread the word of Christ, now we all know that God gives everyone a special gift and this seems to be mine, so I am Gods tool used to spread his word with the gift he granted me, performing illusions that can all be totally explained and I never claim to have any special powers other than the ability to convey Gods words through his gift…. How is this against God?
As for the rest… Nope I have not seen anything that makes me think Harry Potter is walking into a post at the train station, or a car flying overhead….
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jkvand
Special user
Johnstown, PA
643 Posts
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Posted: May 17, 2012 5:56pm
Hi mndude,
I have wondered this myself at times, in a spiritual sense. I have heard some people talk about seeing Ouija boards fly across the room when Jesus' name was mentioned, and of other supernatural experiences. I have also heard of someone dying, and a nun took a cross necklace and did (what I know to be, through my knowledge of magic tricks) a pendulum test over the person. When the pendulum swung in a circle, the nun declared that this meant the deceased person was in heaven. Whether she was well-intentioned or sincere, I don't know, but she convinced the person who related the story to me. So, given situations like this, does real magic exist? I do believe in miracles, healings, and other manifestations of God's power. But I think we need to look carefully at them to 'test the spirits' and see whether they are legitimate or not. Many times, I think they're not. Keep questioning! It is the only way to find the answers we seek. -Jeff
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REV BILL
Special user
Glen Burnie Maryland
745 Posts
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Posted: May 18, 2012 9:14pm
In short-no.
Specializing in Family Entertainment,Gospel,Comedy and Educational programs for over 30 years.(Order of Merlin)
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Terry Holley
Inner circle
1407 Posts
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Posted: May 20, 2012 6:50pm
Shameless plug! Check out the book I co-authored with Christian illusionist Andre' Kole. "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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jamiedoyle
Loyal user
Colorado Springs, CO
249 Posts
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Posted: May 21, 2012 3:28pm
Duane Laflin also wrote a book called a "Miracles - who can do them?"
http://www.laflinmagicstore.com/products-page/?product_search=miracle you will find it here.
Jamie Doyle
jamiedoyle.com
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MagicBus
Inner circle
Kalamazoo, Michigan
2263 Posts
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Posted: May 23, 2012 5:22pm
Penn was on the Sean Hannity Radio Program today (5-23-2012)- probably will be posted to the Hannity radio recap on his web site tomorrow. Sounded to me Penn was more an "agnostic" (e.g. he does not have the answers) vs. being an atheist. So no real "magic" for him it seems? Oh well, don't want to be a hater, I hope Penn changes his mind someday. Penn said they will be on Jimmy Fallon tonight presenting a new effect (and hopefully not another gag "exposure" trick which they have already taken plenty of heat for by other posters here on The Magic Café').
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Dougini
Inner circle
I have killed more topics with my
4630 Posts
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Posted: Jul 1, 2012 11:46pm
Real Magic...hmmm. Interesting question in this particular forum. Not unwelcome, definitely thought provoking...in short, YES!
We would think it was magic! Then, there are dangerous areas we should NEVER delve into, Ouija Boards, and Books Of The Shadows, etc. This is a different realm. Technology can seem like magic, but the Realms Of The Shadows are NOT for us to mess with!
I can tell you without a doubt, there are things in this world that are beyond our understanding, and really should be left alone. One of those things is Nuclear Fission. That is a "magic" all by itself! We do not have the technology to undo the damage done in Japan. Stay tuned for more on that...
The phenomenon of UFO's. They are not what most of us might think. Space is not limited to three dimensions, and there are worlds within worlds that we cannot comprehend. Trying to study and understand that phenomenon leads to insanity...
No, the Bible clearly states that Real Magic is forbidden territory for us. If it is misused, it can be devastatingly dangerous! No, myself, "pretending" for entertainment is good enough!
Doug
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funsway
Inner circle
improbable magic & extraordinary acts
4849 Posts
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Posted: Jul 4, 2012 9:04am
As performing magicians we "pretend at magic" for the purpose of entertainment, instruction, "gaining attention," "visual aids" for a story line, etc.
So, exactly what you "pretend at?" Each performer must be clear as to what THAT is -- a concept embracing personal experience, faith, "book learni'", ethical balance and some knowledge of the audience before them.
This "concept of magic" is very REAL - must be; just as every spectator/student/seeker in front of you has a very REAL concept of what magic is -- that collection basket of observed events that defy ready explanation.
Your goal may be to help the spectator sort his out as to "divine intervention," "lack of scientific knowledge," "dilusion," or even "trickery for the fun of it." The real miracle is that we are here to see and appreciate the witness of other people -- and to offer gospel by way of our actions.
There will always be those who will lay claim to the unknown for selfish purposes (evil?) This is not REAL anything. The ability to use imagination and conceptualization is a gift of God. The ability to appreciate awe and wonder in every aspect of life is very REAL -- and also a gift of God. The ability to file away such experiences without the need for rational explanation is also a gift -- part of what we are, part of what makes us human, part of our soul.
There is an ancient saying, "Treat every stanger as if they bear a message from God -- for they do!" You may observe them do thing that defy explanation or reason or personal beliefs. Lable that as magic. Embrace your ability to appreciate this mystery.
Yes, magic is very REAL -- don't allow others to take it away from you.
"there is real merit in the magician who tries to be creative – from such endeavors magic sustains its life energy." Harold Rice
ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at gusarimagic@comcast.net
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ClintonMagus
Inner circle
Southwestern Southeast
3785 Posts
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Posted: Jul 10, 2012 2:16pm
"Real Magic" is when you get a child to smile when his circumstances offer him nothing to smile about.
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
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EVENTUCATOR
New user
27 Posts
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Posted: Aug 2, 2012 7:47am
Quote: “I'm starting to think that the world is probably just a boring place and no real magic.”
I am thinking, if you need “REAL” magic to keep from being bored, you have a problem.
As mentioned in the letters above, ‘Real Magic’ is from the Devil; if you want to entertain thoughts along these lines, I suggest you should ask Jesus into your life NOW.
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DoctorCognos
Veteran user
389 Posts
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Posted: Aug 7, 2012 4:08pm
Are there Spirits? Sure there are. We are all spirits in a physical body. And none of us who are Christians would deny the existence of the Holy Spirit. So, yes there are indeed Spirits. But who are we to try to communicate with them before our time, and how would you know which are good spirits and which are not?
As was said, we have been admonished against communing with spirits. God gave us a warning with Saul, and his consulting with the witch of Endor.
Isn't our relationship with God exciting enough? I am constantly amazed that I am constantly amazed. But God is truly amazing. Watch a child be born and then grow to a person. A seed become a plant, bearing fruit, or flowers, or vegetables, trees, etc.
Every wonder, I do, of all of the wonderful that colors God has created, which is his favorite color? I think I have narrowed it down to either Blue, or Green, but regardless, vision that allows us to perceive all of these colors is indeed another miracle.
And who can be surpised, when our incredibly complex bodies, and nervous systems, malfunction?
In fact, I am amazed that as complex, high functioning, and interdependent our bodies are, that we don't suffer more breakdowns than we do.
That is a tribute to God's work in creating us complex, and in mostly good working order.
And frankly most of the physical ailments which we have are self induced. Obesiety causing heart problems, and diabetes, and alchohol related issues, many things done to excess.
God is Good all of the time. And all of the time, God is Good.
And for those who really do wish to understand it all better, I highly recommend Andre and Terry's book.
Doctor Cognos
aka Brother David
The Doctor Knows.....
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Dougini
Inner circle
I have killed more topics with my
4630 Posts
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Posted: Aug 7, 2012 10:38pm
Quote:
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On 2012-08-02 07:47, EVENTUCATOR wrote:
...‘Real Magic’ is from the Devil;
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Real magic is NOT from the Devil! That is a statement that hurts us as Christians! Real magic just "is", neither good nor evil. Dangerous? Yes. Did God warn us? Yes. We need to stay away from statements like that. Is Rock & Roll from The devil? Is long hair? Is marijuana? Is alcohol? Those and more, I have heard over and over, ad nauseum.
Most Christians have a very narrow view of what is, and what is not of The Devil. Did it ever occur to you, real magic might be from God? The Tree Of Knowledge Of Good And Evil is not from The Devil! But, he did USE it to tempt Eve! Please, PLEASE think about that before making such a statement!
Non-Christians love to jump on such things to "prove" a stereotype. I blame NOTHING on The Devil, but do blame myself for my stupidity at times!
Quote:
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...if you want to entertain thoughts along these lines, I suggest you should ask Jesus into your life NOW.
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I would think he would do that regardless! Not trying to start an argument here. Just pointing a few things out...
Doug
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DougTait
Elite user
Sebring, FL
426 Posts
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Posted: Aug 14, 2012 4:16pm
I have been fortunate to have witnessed what some may call "Real Magic", but it was in fact a miracle - and certainly not done by a magician or the devil!
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men [and women] to do nothing."
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Dougini
Inner circle
I have killed more topics with my
4630 Posts
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Posted: Aug 14, 2012 6:58pm
Mr. Tait, I believe it. I have also witnessed something...not Magic per se, but something I believed was impossible and a fantasy.
In a completely different situation, my older sister's neighbor was a victim of...something. She saw his stitches! Dozens, repairing three claw-like slashes diagonally from shoulder to waist! He was part of a group playing with a Ouija Board.
My sister heard the screaming two doors down. The neighbor's doctor said the slashes were made by a vicious wild animal of some type. It was UNSEEN! The guys wife and kids were there, and saw the whole thing go down! He was lifted into the air, his clothes torn off, and he was slashed!
Yes, folks. There is a good reason the Ancient Ones warned us to stay away from delving into those realms! They KNOW! Even Angels are afraid...
Doug
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Alan Wheeler
Inner circle
Athens, Georgia
1566 Posts
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Posted: Aug 19, 2012 8:34pm
Jesus vs. the Occult
--Alan Wheeler
English Instructor and
Performing Magician
Athens, Georgia U.S.A.
Racial Harmony
Jesus vs. the Occult
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Dougini
Inner circle
I have killed more topics with my
4630 Posts
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Posted: Aug 20, 2012 5:30pm
Quote:
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...activities of the occult are ranked alongside infanticide, the burning of children as sacrifices. This particular sin is probably mentioned in this context because we all feel in our stomachs that such a thing is loathsome. The point is, then: view charms, horoscopes, ouija boards, fortune telling, magic, and PSI with just as much loathing.
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At what point do we just stop doing Magic altogether? Entertainment is not the occult. For example, performing Luna. A powerful performance. VERY entertaining. But, at what point is performing with a gaffed Ouija Board, or a Book Test crossing over into The Occult? To pretend to be a fortune teller, or moving or floating things with I.T., are we becoming "an abomination to God"?
I would never perform Luna for a church group. That's just asking for trouble. Religion, in my opinion has gone over the top. The basic message is missed. Religious people are THE WORST, when it comes to being judgemental. Don't take this personally. Not all. But, seriously look around. Listen. I absolutely ABHOR the stereotypical "Holy Roller", screaming and yelling about Hellfire and .Damnation, and then we find the perp is having an affair, or doing some other thing totally against what he preaches.
No. Keep it simple. And most assuredly, I do NOT have seances, use Ouija Boards (gaffed or not), or invite "The Other Worldly" into my world! The "Other Worldly" visited me WITHOUT being invited! I really don't know who they are, but I hope they don't come back! Life is difficult enough without such intrusions.
I hope you see my point, and don't get angry at me. The message is simple. "It is finished!" We wait. Meanwhile, we need to treat one another as we would be treated. And God (Yahweh, "You Are", The Father) should be #1 in your life! Beyond that, it just gets bogged down in too many details. Now, so I understand things here, does ANYONE agree with me?
Doug
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Danny Kazam
Special user
567 Posts
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Posted: Aug 20, 2012 5:59pm
I do.
Anyone agree with this article...
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/WorshipAsEntertainment.htm
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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Danny Kazam
Special user
567 Posts
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Posted: Aug 20, 2012 6:31pm
Quote:
"The devil has seldom done a cleverer thing than hinting to the Church that part of their mission is to provide entertainment for the people, with a view to winning them... providing amusement for the people is nowhere spoken of in the Scriptures as a function of the Church...The need is biblical doctrine, so understood and felt that it sets men on fire."
Charles Spurgeon
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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Terry Holley
Inner circle
1407 Posts
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Posted: Aug 20, 2012 6:42pm
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 - New International Version (NIV)
19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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