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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Fellowship of Christian Magicians! » » Statement of Faith Question (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Theodore Lawton
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Sorry if this has been talked about here already, but I couldn't find it quickly so I thought I'd ask.

When I click on the statement of faith section of the FCM site I get a 404 or some such error page telling me that isn't available.

Has it been removed permanently?

I'm considering joining and would like to know more about this aspect of the FCM before I do.

Thanks and God bless! Smile

Theodore-
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Magic is the bacon in the breakfast of life.

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God bless you and have a magical day!
harris
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Is this what you are looking for?

http://fcm.org/usa/membership/join

Statement of Faith*

I agree with the FCM Statement of Faith
I have received Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior and believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God. I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and He died on the cross as the only atonement for our sins; that He rose from the dead; that He ascended to the Father’s right hand in Heaven, and will one day come back for those who trust in Him. As a member of this Fellowship, I commit myself to: (1) reaching lost souls and encouraging growth in the body of Christ through the use of such talents as magic, ventriloquism and associated arts; (2) diligently to be a more proficient performer with these talents; and (3) carefully uphold the code of ethics of the magic profession (related to exposure of magical effects and ideas).”
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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Danny Kazam
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That was why I stopped being a member. The first part was okay for me, but the last part had me feeling like I was required to put the magicians code of ethics (Whatever they mean by that statement) before my commitment to being a good stewardship for Christ.

As we know, the magician's code of ethics could mean anything depending on who you talk to. It has been, and always been opinions on how to protect the art by not revealing secrets on how the tricks are done. Although I do not go around revealing how magic tricks are done, I wouldn't hestitate to do so to prove to someone who thinks it supernatural that it isn't.

And the biggest one for me is the encouraging growth in the body of Christ through our talents. I would of preferred it just said, encouraging growth in Christ with humility in all that we do.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
ChrisG
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(3) carefully uphold the code of ethics of the magic profession (related to exposure of magical effects and ideas).”

Pretty clear to me.
"Consensus is the negation of Leadership"

M. Thatcher
Danny Kazam
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But what constitutes "exposure"? What are the ethics magicians are to uphold? Since it's never been clear to me, can you elaberate more on what you believe exposure means? I myself have read many different opinions on it, but have yet to find one definative opinion that all agree and adhere to.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Theodore Lawton
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Yes, that's what I was looking for. Oh, scroll down! lol I was looking for it via the tabs up top- in the "about" tab if you click on 'statement of faith' it gives you the error page.



Thank you,

Theodore-
www.facebook.com/TedsMagic

............................................

Magic is the bacon in the breakfast of life.

............................................

God bless you and have a magical day!
ChrisG
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Quote:
On 2013-12-04 15:26, Danny Kazam wrote:
But what constitutes "exposure"? What are the ethics magicians are to uphold? Since it's never been clear to me, can you elaberate more on what you believe exposure means? I myself have read many different opinions on it, but have yet to find one definative opinion that all agree and adhere to.



Just as there are many denominations because of differing opinions you may never find "one definative opinion that all agree and adhere to." Personally I take it as if you didn't create "it" don't expose "it".

As a member of the FCM what answer were you given when you ask this question/voiced your opinion, before you gave up that membership?
"Consensus is the negation of Leadership"

M. Thatcher
Danny Kazam
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I think regardless of all the different denominations including the Catholic Church, we can all agree on the first part of the statement of faith."I have received Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior and believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God. I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and He died on the cross as the only atonement for our sins; that He rose from the dead; that He ascended to the Father’s right hand in Heaven, and will one day come back for those who trust in Him."

We all have our own opinions of what constitutes exposure though. There lies my first problem with their statement of faith, but not my only issue with it.

You are of the opinion that if one did not create the trick, they should not expose it. I believe then that according to your opinion, Mr. Laflin would be guilty of exposure, as well as many others including myself who teach tricks found in the public domain, either for profit or for free. The FCM also has a section on their own website that "exposes" tricks they did not create. Something I do not have an issue with because it's meant to help others not hurt others. So, it's really not all that clear is it?

My opinion of "exposure" is revealing how tricks are done with malicious intent to hurt another magician or magicians resulting in personal or emotional damage to the individual or group of individuals.

That issue however, is minor compared to the other issue I addressed previously.

What makes you assume that I brought these issue to someone at FCM before I decided to not renew my membership? The man I did speak to about several issues I had with FCM is no longer with us.

My reasons were of a personal nature, and had nothing to do with any members. I could not adhere to part of their statement of faith.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
ChrisG
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Quote:
On 2013-12-04 17:27, Danny Kazam wrote:
I think regardless of all the different denominations including the Catholic Church, we can all agree on the first part of the statement of faith."I have received Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior and believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God. I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and He died on the cross as the only atonement for our sins; that He rose from the dead; that He ascended to the Father’s right hand in Heaven, and will one day come back for those who trust in Him."

We all have our own opinions of what constitutes exposure though. There lies my first problem with their statement of faith, but not my only issue with it.

You are of the opinion that if one did not create the trick, they should not expose it. I believe then that according to your opinion, Mr. Laflin would be guilty of exposure, as well as many others including myself who teach tricks found in the public domain, either for profit or for free. The FCM also has a section on their own website that "exposes" tricks they did not create. Something I do not have an issue with because it's meant to help others not hurt others. So, it's really not all that clear is it?

My opinion of "exposure" is revealing how tricks are done with malicious intent to hurt another magician or magicians resulting in personal or emotional damage to the individual or group of individuals.

quote

I do not disagree with anything you have said here. My over simplification should have been "If it belongs to someone else don't expose it"


quote

What makes you assume that I brought these issue to someone at FCM before I decided to not renew my membership? The man I did speak to about several issues I had with FCM is no longer with us.

My reasons were of a personal nature, and had nothing to do with any members. I could not adhere to part of their statement of faith.



I made no such assumption. The assumption I made was that before joining an organization you would read their statement of faith. The other assumption would be that after finding you had a problem with that statement of faith you would talk to someone of leadership to clarify what the intent of that statement is. (It's simply about integrity)
"Consensus is the negation of Leadership"

M. Thatcher
Danny Kazam
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"As a member of the FCM what answer were you given when you ask this question/voiced your opinion, before you gave up that membership?"

I am sorry but I took this you were assuming I spoke to someone about it, rather than asking me if spoke to someone. My misunderstanding...I think.

Actually, before I originally joined the FCM I didn't read their statement of faith. Infact, there was much about them I didn't know about until I joined. Chalk that up to me being ignorant, and joining something with blind faith. Not my first time to do something like that, nor the first time I acted on something without knowing all my facts.

I am not always a man of integrity. I am a wretched sinner who lives everyday thankful for the wonderful grace of God. My Lord God, I walk along His side because He has given me my life. And when I am down, He picks me up again. He heals my wounds and forgives my sins.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
ChrisG
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Quote:
On 2013-12-04 18:57, Danny Kazam wrote:

I am not always a man of integrity. I am a wretched sinner who lives everyday thankful for the wonderful grace of God. My Lord God, I walk along His side because He has given me my life. And when I am down, He picks me up again. He heals my wounds and forgives my sins.


Aren't we all! (If we have chosen to be)(Edit: Borne into one chosen to follow)
"Consensus is the negation of Leadership"

M. Thatcher
MagicBus
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I was around as a lad when the "Statement of Faith" was reviewed by John de Vries, FCM President at the time. Even way back when in the early 1970's, I think no one really defined #3 above. On the back of my FCM card, it states "; and (3) carefully upholding the Code of Ethics of the Magic profession." My SAM card says on it to "to live by and uphold my pledge to The Society of American Magicians" and my IBM card says "; And that you will not violate the "Code of Ethics" of this organization."

The I.B.M. and the S.A.M. have a Joint Ethics Statement, which you can print off at http://www.Magician.org by clicking on the link on the Application for membership form. I would think the FCM is simply trying to mirror this.

That being said, many magicians openly violate the "willful exposure to the public of any principles of the Art of Magic or the method employed in any magic effect or illusion." Penn and Teller have done this, does this mean they are not members of these magic organizations (and Teller still writes articles for their organizational magazines I believe). Humbug.

I was just at a large public magic show at the State Theatre in Kalamazoo, one well known touring magician not only openly exposed "D' Lites" in his act, he was selling them in the lobby afterwards.

Same argument for the "respect" for the rights of other inventors which the Joint Ethics Statement addresses, yet these same organizational magazines will advertise the sale of cheaper knock-offs made in India of magical products originated years ago at Abbott's in Colon (such as "Disecto" and Jack Hughes' "Cube on Release"). The unauthorized use of another's creation is rampant in magic.

So all in all, it seems to me this part of the FCM "statement" is as clear as mud as it is in the IBM and SAM as well- because If there actually were an enforced "Code of Ethics"- it is certainly now being violated openly all over the world, on youtube, at quasi-open to the public- magic conventions and lectures, and probably even daily in your local public library, Barnes and Noble, and brick and mortar magic shops (if you can find one).
MagicBus
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Anyway, my reason for posting the above is my own two cents to not stress out on the "Code of Ethics"- I don't think too much anyone knows exactly what it is, when it is violated regarding magic, or what should be done about it when it is. I think in a nutshell it is best summarized by one's effort to at least "try" not to violate this hazy "Code"- for example- it is never right to steal another's lecture word for word and deliver it as one's own, etc. This is just "ethics" in general and applies to all areas of human interaction and society.

But hey, there is not that much new under the sun, the personal "techniques" of Neil Foster or the "ideas" of Duane Laflin are often "borrowed" by me- I will be quick to admit- but at least they are lifted from their published/videotaped body of sold or taught work.
MagicBus
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Just as an aside, I am not sure really when a secret "method employed" (such as a thumb tip) passes into toy status for the public domain (and is for sale in the lobby afterwards).
Dougini
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Quote:
On 2013-12-05 17:09, MagicBus wrote:
...these same organizational magazines will advertise the sale of cheaper knock-offs made in India of magical products originated years ago at Abbott's in Colon (such as "Disecto" and Jack Hughes' "Cube on Release"). The unauthorized use of another's creation is rampant in magic.


Yes, and will continue no matter how we feel about it. Human nature and all that...

Doug
harris
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Another thing is use of others material ...outside of Ministry event.

In my work with comedy clubs and comedians, it is frowned on to use others stuff.

I learned this the hard way, from the mouths of other comics.

Stock material is for all.

Of course my experience has been that in ministry work, brothers and sisters are much more giving and accepting of others using their approaches.

I have found things work in both non secular and secular gigs, when they are truer to my heart and own testimony.

Harris
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at 5'5" he is pretty short, said Nigel the puppet that rocks and talks...
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themagiciansapprentice
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I'm just glad that the FCMs statement is so brief

#3 - in the UK we take this to mean no reckless exposure (sell a secret in a book / packet trick -- yes; knowingly exposing it as part of a show --- NO) and not using some-one's material without permission/performing license
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Summer and Autumn 2013.
mralincoln
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Even though Christian brothers and sisters are more forgiving, it is important for us to still maintain biblical ethics -- and not steal routines, lines, patter, and/or effects -- even for ministry. Yes, "stock effects" are fair game, but we need to be Christian in our behavior/ethics. It seems like Someone once said something about treating others the way we desire to be treated!
MagicBus
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Just another total aside: Barry Mitchell posted this weekend on his facebook page the little song I wrote (with Barry and Sherry's help) for the caterpillar to butterfly effect (using the little green changing pouch he sells). Pretty neat routine: uses the song from "The Beverly Hillbillies". You are welcome to use it!
lilpixie
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This thread was very interesting and helpful. Thank you Smile
Shagbeard
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For me as an Orthodox Christian that expresses in Germanic Tolkien way lol the Nicene Creed and seeing the Creator as ultimate, Alfather is how I hold my faith. Regardless of how the different denominations want to word it, I hold the creed.
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