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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Knots and loops » » Jimmy Fingers' Rope-U-Tation (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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TStone
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For those who don't know which performance you refer to, this is it:
https://vimeo.com/238570609
The Duster
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On Oct 22, 2017, TStone wrote:
For those who don't know which performance you refer to, this is it:
https://vimeo.com/238570609


That's a grea video

I don't do magic (mental stuff instead) but that performance definitely will sell loads of units

Can't see how that isn't good for buisness

In other matters... are there more clips (in English) on YouTube (of other effects/performances) as I do love to watch great comedy magic
magic4545
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On Oct 22, 2017, TStone wrote:
So I asked what we could do to make you happy, and suggested several things... maybe a more visible credit in the video? ...maybe some enthusiastic quote for you to use in your marketing?
I was about to offer you more money as well, but by then, you had decided that you weren't interested in any resolutions and had blocked my messages.


Awesome. You were 'about to.' Laughing my FAO! Wow. If I'd only waited...

Quote:
a rope penetration á la Jeff Stewart


Another thing. When I invented Rope-u-tation, it wasn't invented to be used for the Jeff Stewart moves. It was invented to use a flip stick maneuver to accomplish a rope through body effect that was repeatable. And audience members could hold the ends of the rope and pull as hard as they pleased before and after the effect. This was the way that I performed it for David Copperfield, and he requested that I repeat it, and I did... And he requested again, and I did.

The gimmick just happens to work well for the Jeff Stewart moves. I've mentioned that, and that if someone is going to use those moves, they should buy one from Jeff or reimburse him. But, I've never been able to contact Jeff for discussion, so I don't know where he stands on all of this.


Quote:
Besides Hĺkan, there are 3 more people in his team. I'm magic consultant & director, and there's a musician and a sound&lights guy, all equally involved. If it is necessary that we buy a total of 4 copies, in order for one to perform, then that is what we will do. Gladly.


Although the effect is worth that, I'm only asking magicians who have had the video instructional and access to the gimmick to compensate for the product. It seems that now you're just being an ass.

Quote:
So no, you are more then welcome to buy my work as a gift to anyone. Doesn't bother me at all.


Then, gift Hakan YOUR stuff. Yeah, that's what I thought.

Magician thinking applied to purchased magic is a funny thing. You KNOW you can't return items to a magic shop, because you've purchased the secret. But, you don't understand that you can't 'sell' the secret because you've already learned it, you can't unlearn the secret, and now you know the secret?

If you can't return magic, then, why should you be able to pass it along or sell it? Especially, a proprietary, signature piece.

Your message said "WE want to thank you..." I didn't sell two of these. I sold one.

Quote:
To date, I have not even held the props in my own hands.
Not that it matters, if you've seen the video and directed the other performer, but I'm just not buying this. I don't know you, but any other magician that I know would be at least curious about the effect, the quality, the construction and the features that have been engineered into the gimmick that you were at once 'curious about.'

I see a day when a magician has a Go Fund Me account, and he just solicits any donation from the people who use his material, and, then after about 3 years, he can check on it, and go get an ice cream or lunch with the proceeds. Probably not both.
magic4545
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Quote:
On Oct 22, 2017, TStone wrote:
For those who don't know which performance you refer to, this is it:
https://vimeo.com/238570609


There are a lot of things in the performance that I find counterproductive to the effect. Too long, too much, moves that are almost indicative of what is actually being used to accomplish the effect. The ear to mouth thing is NOT an improvement, sorry.

Just curious... Did he pay copyright royalties to use "One" by U2? LOL
magic4545
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On Oct 22, 2017, Eugene Chekhov wrote:
I'm a big fan of your ideas! Smile


So, which of my ideas are you an owner of?
Bill Hegbli
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Just watched the video of Hakan Berg performance. I will say that is a very different performance of those effects.

Jimmy, mentioned he was part of the hurricane damage that hit Texas, to what extent Jimmy has suffered, I have not idea, but I can relate to what he must be going through emotionally, as my experience of 10 days without electricity, when a wind burst took out most of the power in Fort Wayne, in 2012. I has no car at the time, and realized how there was no way to contact the outside world.

I believe Jimmy, did not plan for an instant escape from a natural disaster occurring. Just like most of us. All these disasters will make one realize, we have no one but ourselves to save our lives. It is all up to us to be prepared.

So I saved my money for 2 years and bought very old car, which means low insurance rates, fuel economy, etc. Since then, I have corrected all the things wrong with the vehicle, and they are many, spending $250 a month on parts, and repairing it myself, as the engine is in excellent condition, and runs superiorly, just everything else that has worn out, or been damaged by neglect. I'm not a mechanic, but thanks to YouTube and a manual, I have restored the vehicle to very good operating condition. I feel, I am not an expert on the 2001 Ford Focus.

Jimmy wants to sell what tricks he has, as I am sure he is trying to support himself. It takes a long time to come back financially.

Jimmy, you will get through this.

For all those that don't want to go through any of the natural disasters, I suggest you move to Fort Wayne, Indiana. Smile No tornadoes have hit us except 2 in our history. They say it is because the 3 rivers brake up the tornado. The last one years ago, was very small, touched down in a shopping center, broke a window and dissipated. We are in a perfect location, that our weather pattern avoids these tragic occurrences.
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magic4545
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Bill, this has nothing to do with the hurricane. Life as an inventor and creator has been worse for me than anything that a hurricane could do.
TStone
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On Oct 23, 2017, magic4545 wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 22, 2017, TStone wrote:
So I asked what we could do to make you happy, and suggested several things... maybe a more visible credit in the video? ...maybe some enthusiastic quote for you to use in your marketing?
I was about to offer you more money as well, but by then, you had decided that you weren't interested in any resolutions and had blocked my messages.


Awesome. You were 'about to.' Laughing my FAO! Wow. If I'd only waited...


I don't see why you would doubt that.
The next to last sentence I wrote before you blocked my messages right in the middle of our conversation was: "But we definitely want you to be at ease with our use of your brilliant piece, so tell us what we can do?" Not to mention that we were prepared to pay a substantial amount if Hĺkan could get exclusive performance rights, back in 2009 when I first contacted you.


Quote:
Quote:
Besides Hĺkan, there are 3 more people in his team. I'm magic consultant & director, and there's a musician and a sound&lights guy, all equally involved. If it is necessary that we buy a total of 4 copies, in order for one to perform, then that is what we will do. Gladly.


Although the effect is worth that, I'm only asking magicians who have had the video instructional and access to the gimmick to compensate for the product. It seems that now you're just being an ass.


Fair enough. I've done everything I can and I have nothing left to offer. If that makes me an ass, well, then I'm evidently an ass. I accept that.

Quote:
Quote:
To date, I have not even held the props in my own hands.
I don't know you, but any other magician that I know would be at least curious about the effect, the quality, the construction and the features that have been engineered into the gimmick that you were at once 'curious about.'

True, you don't know me. But we have mutual friends, and there should be at least one of them that you can trust. Inquire about me.
I have no idea what "any other magician" would do - I'm not them. Once again, I refer back to our initial correspondance in 2009. I'm not in the habit of spending a fortune to buy a pig in a poke. Why would I inquire about exclusive performance rights, if I didn't already knew everything I needed to know? I even stated, clearly, four years before I bought the piece for Hĺkan: I am well aware of the predecessors and your improvements. Check your own email records.

Not that it matters anymore since further discussions clearly will not lead anywhere. So, I guess we have to leave this unresolved.

To avoid any future misunderstandings, I will advice my friends, and those I work with, to stay clear of you and your work.

Sincerely,
Tom
magic4545
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Are there any other acts you've 'consulted' my product with that I should be looking out for, just in case I see other videos with my work?

You're going to tell people to steer clear of me and my work? Oh, so you've got what you need, cool.

If your friends, contacts, connections and associates have your sneaky, narcissistic way of going about things and a similar accountability, then I guess that I owe you thanks.

My biggest problem with this whole issue is your presumptuous behavior... That what's yours is also someone else's, even though it's not yours to distribute.

All of this, all of your stellar reputation, sullied by not supporting someone who came through for you. About $85.
TStone
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On Oct 23, 2017, magic4545 wrote:
If your friends, contacts, connections and associates have your sneaky, narcissistic way of going about things and a similar accountability, then I guess that I owe you thanks.


I do not know what "sneaky" refers to, since I have been nothing but open. I sent you the performance clip when I thanked you, but you act as if I had tried to hide it from you.


Quote:
My biggest problem with this whole issue is your presumptuous behavior... That what's yours is also someone else's, even though it's not yours to distribute.

All of this, all of your stellar reputation, sullied by not supporting someone who came through for you.


I'm sorry, Jimmy, but I can not follow your reasoning.
I did the research for another performer, and I bought the item for that performer. Is that really so strange and uncommon?
Nothing have been copied or duplicated.
There have always been one unit and one performer - the same performer.

Once again, I refer back to my initial email from 2009, in which I expressed curiosity regarding the availability of your piece and inquired about exclusive performance rights.
It would make no sense for me to inquire about exclusive performance rights, if my intention wasn't to have it exclusive to one performer.

I paid what you asked for in 2013 ($95). Had you asked for ten times that amount, I would have paid that too. But I'm not a mindreader. There have been no way for me to know that the price you asked then wasn't enough for you.

I'm doing my best to try to follow your reasoning, but I can't.
To compare with an almost identical example:
In 2012, I was having friday brunch at the Magic Castle, when Jon Armstrong asked me if I sold the props for my "Of Dice and Men" (the hug/kill routine), and by chance I happened to have a spare set in my bag. So Jon bought it, then turned around and gave it as a gift to Rob Zabrecky, saying "You should do this routine, it is perfect for you!" And it has since then become Rob's signature piece.
...According to your logic, I should have become angry at Jon and Rob then? I was supposed to call them names and cease being friends with them?
I do not get that attitude. Right or wrong, I was flattered by it, and I was touched by that act of friendship between them.

If it is greed that drives you, then just name the sum you want and I'll take care of it.
TStone
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On Oct 23, 2017, magic4545 wrote:
Are there any other acts you've 'consulted' my product with that I should be looking out for, just in case I see other videos with my work?


Yes, I have discussed your Magellan Master Levitation with another performer, and almost bought it. But, in the end it turned out that we were forced to cut material, not add more, so the purchase was pushed to the future. Which I'm happy about now, since I can hardly imagine the verbal abuse that purchase would have garnered me.
magic4545
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Jimmy Fingers
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I think that I have overreacted to this situation. I'm not saying that it's right for magicians to share something that I'm selling with another magician without buying their own copy, but I also think that Tom was not intending to hurt me. It's just an oversight. A common oversight in the magic community. A LOT of people get to have my work. I don't get much from it.

I would like to apologize to Tom for letting the past issues of being ripped off affect my reaction to this one time. I don't want to have to rely on his friends to back up how good of a guy he is. I want to address the issue of how top level pros regard crediting and respecting a creator's concerns.

My only defense in the industry is to hope that the good guys have got my back. I had heard that Tom was a good guy, but I wasn't getting the outcome that I was expecting.

I can see how a team of magicians feels entitled to one copy of my work. Bird in hand.

Just remember how hard it is to get by.

Look for opportunities to be supportive instead of predatory. Paying for stuff from creators is good karma.

Tom sees abundance and acceptance in magic, it seems. I don't. Oh, well. That's life.

Nobody knows how hard it is to survive off of their creations, and seeing the hundreds of occurrences of being ripped off for your life's work.

Still disappointed, but not as angry at Tom. Most people in magic act that way. But, I just get the feeling that Tom isn't like that.

Sorry.

Jimmy Fingers
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Wow.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TStone
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On Oct 24, 2017, magic4545 wrote:
I think that I have overreacted to this situation. I'm not saying that it's right for magicians to share something that I'm selling with another magician without buying their own copy, but I also think that Tom was not intending to hurt me. It's just an oversight.

Maybe I'm using the language wrong since I'm not a native english speaker, but to me, saying "share" implies that more than one person is using something.
I would be a poor magic consultant if I myself made use of the clever and unique material I try to find for those I work with. That would make the role completely pointless.

My wish have never been to hurt anyone, least of all anyone as clever and creative as you, Jimmy.

I gladly accept the apology. And I apologize for my own inapproriate remarks.
magic4545
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Yours were appropriate and understandable under the circumstances. No apology necessary.

I was hasty when I reacted to seeing someone performing it without being on my client list.

Jimmy
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Hakan obviously put a LOT of work into the piece. None of this can diminish that. Congratulations on creating the other aspects of this that contribute to a long road of experiences for this effect.

Jimmy
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I'm a fan of your ideas - which you set out in a live lecture!
 You just insulted Tom - not accepting his JUSTICE. I get the impression that you just do not know how to sell your tricks and earn. And that's why you beat those who successfully use your tricks. Where is the catalog of your products - which can I buy? Its just not there! Any mage can buy a trick and sell it without problems and give it to another mage. What is illegal or not ethical? Groundless accusations!
I know that David Copperfield refused to buy and use your trick why? I'm just curious?
I think Tom will be able to refund 4 copies - but you hurt his honest reputation. You have to be careful in your judgments! I imagine what you will do with that magician who will undertake to perfect your trick with a rope. Are you going to sue him in court? Great Grunt - improved 100 tricks and effects.
Smile
I love the magic & history of magic! My favorites magicians - Dai Vernon, Max Malini, Fielding West, Michael Finney, Jeff Hobson, Bob Sheets, Nick Lewin, Harry Murphy, Dick Oslund- great showmen of magic!
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On Oct 24, 2017, Eugene Chekhov wrote:
I'm a fan of your ideas - which you set out in a live lecture!


And, if I taught it in the lecture, then you bought the lecture. You can do the effect. I don't think that you should publish it or republish it, or put it into your lecture. But, I think that you should be able to perform it wherever you'd like. It would be ****ty if you knew that it was in my showlist, and you did it onstage before I went on the same stage. It's funny, I used to think that everyone would just intrinsically get this. But, everyone feels different about everything. I'm not referring to the situation with Tom at all, here.

Quote:
You just insulted Tom - not accepting his JUSTICE.


I regret that. Please see the apology issued above. For every one situation where this happened this way, there are a hundred that didn't.

Quote:
I get the impression that you just do not know how to sell your tricks and earn.


I get that impression, too, when I see some of the stuff that seems to sell. When I see all of the crap in the mentalism world. When I see the hype of magic effects that are repackaged classics.

Quote:
And that's why you beat those who successfully use your tricks.


I've never been a shameless self promoter. I've tried to limit my promotion on the Magic Café, but that's because the Magic Café will not allow me to advertise on here. There is an old thread on it, you can search it. The closest guess that I have is that my stuff with normal objects is a threat to a gimmicked, competing effect by someone more popular with them than I am.

When I DO try to talk about my effects on here, I get blasted by someone who assumes that I'm not 'supporting the Café'. I've sent donations to the Café. They just don't show up where the members see them. But, I DO support the Café when I can. And, I DO feel that my input here is wisdom, and that there is a lot to gain from reading my posts. You may not. I don't know.

Quote:
Where is the catalog of your products - which can I buy?


www.jimmyfingers.com/products Jimmy's Magic Shop

Quote:
Its just not there!


Just checked again... www.jimmyfingers.com/products

Quote:
Any mage can buy a trick and sell it without problems and give it to another mage. What is illegal or not ethical? Groundless accusations!


Do you go into a magic shop and argue with the shop about having a "no returns because you've purchased the secret" policy? Nobody does, because we just know that's how it goes.

Do you sell a video download when you're through with it? Do you sell downloadable PDF's when you're done with them?

See where I am with this?

BTW, the Rope-u-tation has a video instructional. Without it, I would think that the gimmick would be pretty useless, unimpressive, etc. You might not even know that the different features engineered into it exist.

Quote:
I know that David Copperfield refused to buy and use your trick why? I'm just curious?


You know absolutely nothing. David Copperfield was given one by me for his birthday back when he was at Alley Theatre in Houston. 1991, I think. He asked me to perform it for him, and I did it. He asked again. I did it. He asked once more, and I did it.

So, why wasn't it on one of his specials? Ask Timothy Wenk and others how many of their effects sold after they were performed on his specials back then. It was huge! From what I understood, it was being considered, but Copperfield opted to present Grandmothers' Aces, I believe. It was the producer's effect. See where that goes?

Quote:
I think Tom will be able to refund 4 copies - but you hurt his honest reputation.


I will take time to accept the blame. Hopefully, anyone in the conversation will have heard that I backed way off and apologized.

Quote:
You have to be careful in your judgments!


I 'have to' about as much as Asian and European shops 'have to' not rip off my products. It's the wild west.

Quote:
I imagine what you will do with that magician who will undertake to perfect your trick with a rope. Are you going to sue him in court? Great Grunt - improved 100 tricks and effects.
Smile


I'm not really clear on what you're cryptically, or comically trying to say.

I think that magicians 'suing' other magicians is 99 percent window dressing. If you think that I can 'protect' my material with legal processes, then you're really living in a dream land. However, looking at the United States of America, there are a LOT of people living in a different reality.

I hope that I've answered some of your concerns to your and others satisfaction.

Once again, I apologize to Tom Stone for the question of his integrity.

Thanks,

Jimmy
TStone
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On Oct 24, 2017, Eugene Chekhov wrote:
I think Tom will be able to refund 4 copies - but you hurt his honest reputation.

Thanks for the concern, but it is all good. It doesn't matter which path something takes, as long as it ends up in a good destination. It is not wrong to be passionate about one's work.
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I am glad that this dialogue ended on a positive note. It's good that we have the opportunity to discuss and share. Jimmy is a good guy, I understand his indignation. But the Asian market kills magic. But I want to note I've never met a fake of his trick with a rope. Although they probably exist.
I love the magic & history of magic! My favorites magicians - Dai Vernon, Max Malini, Fielding West, Michael Finney, Jeff Hobson, Bob Sheets, Nick Lewin, Harry Murphy, Dick Oslund- great showmen of magic!
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