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harris
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Harris Deutsch
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It is a blessing to share my faith, here on The Good news and in Gospel programs.

I also look for opportunities at other places. These include playing Gospel tunes while waiting in long lines at Walmart or in conversation at the gym.

This morning a new friend at the gym asked me if I was a pastor. I said well it was either a Pastor or a counselor/entertainer. I chose the later.

I hope you are as open to share your faith and beliefs off line

Our God is much to big to be kept in by church walls.
Any thoughts?

Love Harris
Still too old to know it all
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REV BILL
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Keep on being a good testimony wherever you are.
Specializing in Family Entertainment,Gospel,Comedy and Educational programs for over 30 years.(Order of Merlin)
Theodore Lawton
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Amen.

1 Peter 3:15 says it better than I can. But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

I like to ask people questions. People generally like to talk. Do you go to church?

Invite them. Share the gospel with them. Love them.
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God bless you and have a magical day!
harris
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Harris Deutsch
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Yes we need not wait for ask a friend to church Sunday.

A friend recently suggested kindly, for me to listen 20% more.

It takes a lot of spot check inventory and I am getting better. Praise to our Lord.
After our final run of Love in another key our director gave us feedback.

Though it was not at a church he said he noticed many audience members mouth the words as we read Corinthian 13.
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Vlad_77
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Two thoughts:

1. Yes I agree that our God is too big to be "confined" to a "church" - indeed our God is ALL and therefore cannot be confined. We however choose to be confined by sin or to be liberated from it. But that is a process as well and we must resist confinement even though we are all sinners, we must be ever vigilant not to make that an excuse. Smile

2. As we read in Acts however, the Apostles continued in the way of worship, thus signifying liturgical worship in a community. We have a saying in Orthodox Catholicism that goes something like this: "We are saved together but we are ***ed alone." (I realize that the Café's overzealous asterisks will have appeared, so, the word is the opposite of saved). There are two understandings of church that I think need clarifying. One is the building and the other the the body of believers. Christ said that when two or more are gathered in His name, He is there. And we see throughout the New Testament the sense of community and the importance of church. St. Paul's Epistles were written to the churches in Rome, Ephesus, Thessalonia, etc. So, we do in fact still need that time of worship in community. For those of my faith, even though God is in ever atom of every THING, we still hold the temple as a sacred place.It is not just a building. In fact, for us, those who have passed on are worshipping with us, always.

Now that said, yes, we do not need a church to speak or to pray in the respect that a church is the only place in which tom do that. But, the importance of the church AND the Church cannot be overstated. Smile

But am I saved? Do I know without a shadow of a doubt where I will be when my life ends? No. Christ said that he who endures shall be saved. St. Paul writes of the great cloud of witnesses cheering us on to the finish line. I hope and pray I reach it.
harris
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Yes it is the inside body and going out into the mission field.

Story goes like this. A parishioner missed a few services. Sitting by his fire he heard a knock on his door. The pastor was let in. They sat in silence before the fireplace. Quiet the pastor took tongs and removed a glowing log and sat it in front of the fire. As the log 's glow began to fade, the pastor grabbed it with tongs and placed it back into the fire. Without a word he got up to leave. See you next Sunday, said the parishioner.
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Vlad_77
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On 2014-02-16 21:24, Harris wrote:
Yes it is the inside body and going out into the mission field.

Story goes like this. A parishioner missed a few services. Sitting by his fire he heard a knock on his door. The pastor was let in. They sat in silence before the fireplace. Quiet the pastor took tongs and removed a glowing log and sat it in front of the fire. As the log 's glow began to fade, the pastor grabbed it with tongs and placed it back into the fire. Without a word he got up to leave. See you next Sunday, said the parishioner.


Nice! Smile
Terry Holley
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On 2014-02-16 21:12, Vlad_77 wrote:

But am I saved? Do I know without a shadow of a doubt where I will be when my life ends? No. Christ said that he who endures shall be saved. St. Paul writes of the great cloud of witnesses cheering us on to the finish line. I hope and pray I reach it.


Hey Vlad,

You don't have to hope and pray about your eternal salvation if you believe in Christ as your Savior! It's all about what Christ did for you, not about what you are doing for Christ. You might be interested in this link. It's a free online booklet that I have given out in hard copy form over the years to people who are not sure about their salvation. It's titled "You Can Be Sure."

http://faithalone.org/tracts/ycbs.html

After all, as John said in 1 John 5:9-13:

"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

Terry
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robvh
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Terry, scripture also tells us that "faith without works is dead." Surely, we won't be saved by a dead faith. The Apostles repeatedly talk about "working out their salvation" and "finishing the race". We need to pay heed to this teaching!

God assures us that nobody can remove us from the palm of His hand but we can certainly remove ourselves! We can also deceive ourselves into thinking we're faithful and in His hand when indeed we are not.

None of this is to say that Christ's death and resurrection was not sufficient to cover our sins and that our own works somehow save us. No, Jesus' sacrifice is enough to redeem the whole world. However, Jesus and the Apostles gave us plenty of warnings that we cannot be complacent and think that we will enter heaven by virtue of making a faith statement. This is a dangerous fallacy that is sadly common among Protestantism (sorry!) but which dangerously takes certain verses out of context.

How many times did Jesus talk about people being shut out of the wedding feast, or spit out of His mouth for being lukewarm, or who were shocked to be shut out of heaven even though they called him "Lord, Lord!"?

This needs to be thought about carefully. Pray for wisdom and discernment (and always ask good questions). God bless.
Terry Holley
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On 2014-02-17 21:16, robvh wrote:
Terry, scripture also tells us that "faith without works is dead." Surely, we won't be saved by a dead faith. The Apostles repeatedly talk about "working out their salvation" and "finishing the race". We need to pay heed to this teaching!

God assures us that nobody can remove us from the palm of His hand but we can certainly remove ourselves! We can also deceive ourselves into thinking we're faithful and in His hand when indeed we are not.

None of this is to say that Christ's death and resurrection was not sufficient to cover our sins and that our own works somehow save us. No, Jesus' sacrifice is enough to redeem the whole world. However, Jesus and the Apostles gave us plenty of warnings that we cannot be complacent and think that we will enter heaven by virtue of making a faith statement. This is a dangerous fallacy that is sadly common among Protestantism (sorry!) but which dangerously takes certain verses out of context.

How many times did Jesus talk about people being shut out of the wedding feast, or spit out of His mouth for being lukewarm, or who were shocked to be shut out of heaven even though they called him "Lord, Lord!"?

This needs to be thought about carefully. Pray for wisdom and discernment (and always ask good questions). God bless.


If salvation isn't simply by faith, then one way or the other it has to be of works.

James says that faith without works is dead. He does not say that faith without works is not faith! There is a difference here.

Based on some of the posts that I have read in the Gospel Magic threads, I'm interested in how many Gospel Magicians state in their Gospel presentations that people need to trust in Christ and do good works or they will not be truly "saved." If that is what a person believes then I would think it is important to share that in the presentation since eternal destiny hinges on a corrrect understanding.

If you say that works don't save, but that you must have works to be saved, you are simply back-loading the gospel with works.

I'll stick with what the Bible states in Ephesians 2:8-9. Even in a "non-Protestant" Bible!

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
harris
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Harris Deutsch
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Faith 100 %

In the Old Testament it was works.

That us not to say write that we should just do or not do anything.
Corinthians 10/23 or close by.

I like the Luke warm reference in the NT

We are hot for so many new things or as my Pastor calls STUFF.

I/We need to be on fire for our Lord.

Let the Redeemed of The Lord say so.

Praising The Lord

Brother Harris
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mediocre_magic
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I've heard it said, we are not saved BY our good works. We are saved FOR good works.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
harris
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"For"...

We are the body.



Nice
Harris Deutsch

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Bryan Drake Show
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Not to nitpick, but an interesting point Harris, the OT was not about works, but about the faith behind those works. That's what Hebrews talks about.
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On 2014-02-17 22:00, Terry Holley wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-02-17 21:16, robvh wrote:
Terry, scripture also tells us that "faith without works is dead." Surely, we won't be saved by a dead faith. The Apostles repeatedly talk about "working out their salvation" and "finishing the race". We need to pay heed to this teaching!

God assures us that nobody can remove us from the palm of His hand but we can certainly remove ourselves! We can also deceive ourselves into thinking we're faithful and in His hand when indeed we are not.

None of this is to say that Christ's death and resurrection was not sufficient to cover our sins and that our own works somehow save us. No, Jesus' sacrifice is enough to redeem the whole world. However, Jesus and the Apostles gave us plenty of warnings that we cannot be complacent and think that we will enter heaven by virtue of making a faith statement. This is a dangerous fallacy that is sadly common among Protestantism (sorry!) but which dangerously takes certain verses out of context.

How many times did Jesus talk about people being shut out of the wedding feast, or spit out of His mouth for being lukewarm, or who were shocked to be shut out of heaven even though they called him "Lord, Lord!"?

This needs to be thought about carefully. Pray for wisdom and discernment (and always ask good questions). God bless.


If salvation isn't simply by faith, then one way or the other it has to be of works.

James says that faith without works is dead. He does not say that faith without works is not faith! There is a difference here.

Based on some of the posts that I have read in the Gospel Magic threads, I'm interested in how many Gospel Magicians state in their Gospel presentations that people need to trust in Christ and do good works or they will not be truly "saved." If that is what a person believes then I would think it is important to share that in the presentation since eternal destiny hinges on a corrrect understanding.

If you say that works don't save, but that you must have works to be saved, you are simply back-loading the gospel with works.

I'll stick with what the Bible states in Ephesians 2:8-9. Even in a "non-Protestant" Bible!

Terry


Hi Terry,

I am interested in how you make the distinction between faith that is dead as we find in St. James, and faith that is "not faith." If faith without works is dead as St. James tells us Terry, then what becomes of faith? Can a dead faith somehow still be a faith in the context of St. James? As a passing note, Martin Luther was so very troubled by this passage that he has contemplated omitting it. Instead, he included it but ADDED the "alone" in "save by faith alone."

I do not believe that works guarantees salvation, and no Orthodox, Catholic, or Anglican/Episcopal would dare argue that. If you've ever read the Canterbury Tales, you will find that even Chaucer - who had issues with some doctrine 200+ years before the advent of Protestantism even recognized the folly of such a claim.

"Works" was addressed to those who believed that all that was necessary was works, yet, one can do "good" without having good intentions. For St. James, faith and works - and by that St. James is explaining works born out of faith - are inextricable.

And yes, with all due respect, I must pray. Salvation is a process: "we work out our salvation with fear and trembling." There are however some denominations that believe that if you are "saved", then no matter what you do after that moment, you are always saved. Such a thing was never believed prior to the 17th century and really didn't gain ground until the late 19th century in America. Calvinism actually predates this and actually complicates the notion of salvation through the invention of the doctrine of the "Elect." For Calvin, who by the way was a lawyer, not a clergyman or a theologian, God decided even before Creation who would be saved and who would not. Faith - and even works - were inconsequential because all was predetermined. Thus, one of the major criticisms of Calvinism was need for a savior. Descedant churches of the Calvinist tradition - most notably Presbyterians - have backed off of this Calvinistic notion. It is important to note that there is absolutely no scriptural basis for Calvin's assertion of the "Elect." In fact, Christ said that He came not to call the righteous but the sinner to repent. If however, God decided the fate of all, then why would He as God Incarnate change that condition?

Salvation is only guaranteed to those who persevere to the very end; there is no once saved always saved, and faith and works born out of faith are inextricable. One cannot claim to possess faith and yet abjure works born out of them for such faith is dead. I think that St. James might have a bit more authority on the subject than we, wouldn't you agree?

In Christ,
Vlad
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On Feb 17, 2014, Harris wrote:
Faith 100 %

In the Old Testament it was works.

Brother Harris



Hello brother Harris and others... Thank you for your encouragement to have a joyous faith that we share with others.

Regarding the Old Testament, it is my understanding that salvation in both Testaments has always been by grace alone through faith alone. Abraham BELIEVED God and it was credited to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:6. Galatians 3 tells us the Lord preached the gospel to Abraham. The just shall live by faith. Habakkuk 2:4.

I wanted to comment too on some of the other posts. NT books like Galatians helps us see the ROOTS of our salvation in that our right standing before God is because of Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross alone. All we can do is believe and find welcome of His grace. But the book of James points more to the FRUIT of our faith. That any saving faith will always express itself in loving acts of obedience. And if there is no obedience at all to the Lord then the faith we think we have is an illusion. The Scriptures call us to hold roots and fruit in tension and make sure there is both. It is neither easy believe-ism nor works with out any relationship to Christ. It is faith that expresses itself through love. Galatians 5:6.

Tom Mason
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On Feb 17, 2014, Terry Holley wrote:

I'll stick with what the Bible states in Ephesians 2:8-9. Even in a "non-Protestant" Bible!

Terry


Hi Terry, Thank you for your commitment to the pure gospel of God's grace. I too love Ephesians 2:8-9 which says we are not saved by works, but saved by grace through faith (in the work of Christ on the cross - Eph 2:13) Ephesians 2;10 is a helpful verse as it speaks more to what Vlad is saying... that though we are not saved by works we are created in Christ Jesus FOR good works which God planned in advance for us to WALK in [the good works].

I love how the NT always keeps us balanced!

Tom Mason
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On Mar 3, 2014, MagicMason wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 17, 2014, Terry Holley wrote:

I'll stick with what the Bible states in Ephesians 2:8-9. Even in a "non-Protestant" Bible!

Terry


Hi Terry, Thank you for your commitment to the pure gospel of God's grace. I too love Ephesians 2:8-9 which says we are not saved by works, but saved by grace through faith (in the work of Christ on the cross - Eph 2:13) Ephesians 2;10 is a helpful verse as it speaks more to what Vlad is saying... that though we are not saved by works we are created in Christ Jesus FOR good works which God planned in advance for us to WALK in [the good works].

I love how the NT always keeps us balanced!

Tom Mason


Thank you for that Tom! To be frank, I found the comment that Terry made "even in a non-Protestant" bible offensive. The Church decided what books were canon and what books weren't. It has ALWAYS been understood that we are created to be greater than the angels. God chose to become Man so that Man could become - not AS God - but LIKE God in His Energies. We are created to be a as Christlike as possible but we also know that we fall short of His glory. Works are essential and no, as I stated emphatically, we are NOT "saved" by works. And again, NO Orthodox, Catholic, or Anglican would EVER claim that works are central. BUT, there IS no denying St. James that faith without works is dead. St. James is quite direct on that issue and Luther knew that to the extent that he was prepared to not only omit that verse but also the entire Book of St. James from his translation of the books collectively known as The Bible. The Pharisees did "good works" not out of humility and faith and altruism, but, rather, to brag. Jesus spoke against the Pharisees and we know that by doing so He made powerful enemies; enemies that had Him executed. Let's never forget that.

We perform good works BECAUSE of our faith, and not to be saved through works, but rather because works are a product of faith when faith INFORMS those works. When those works are performed for ANY other reason than FAITH, then they are as empty - as dead - as faith which denies the importance of works.

We imperil ourselves in many ways and I include myself in that statement for we are ALL sinners - even those who "know" they are saved are still human and thus are sinners. But we imperil ourselves and divide ourselves most when we cheery pick and take scripture out of context. There is no hierarchy in the God's words. God is not out to play with our minds.

There was a Desert Father, St. Anthony the Great who, on his death bed wept uncontrollably that he did not do enough to serve his God. There is a lot to be learned from such an example. And as for works, we find that Jesus stated emphatically, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father." John 14:12

"Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give." Matthew 10:8

Note the language in St. John and St. Matthew - especially the verbs: "do", "heal", "cleanse", "cast out", "raise", give." St. James does not deviate at all from Sts. John and Matthew - and why would he as these are the commands of God Incarnate. Note also the qualifier: "He who believes in Me ..." That my sisters and brothers is a statement of the preeminence of faith and from that belief such works are possible and indeed as we learn from Sts. John, Matthew, and James, compulsory.

Best,
Vlad
Terry Holley
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Hi Vlad,

In an earlier post you wrote, "To be frank, I found the comment that Terry made 'even in a non-Protestant' bible offensive."

I'm not sure why it offended you, as I was simply responding to your statement in another of your posts where you wrote, "Jesus and the Apostles gave us plenty of warnings that we cannot be complacent and think that we will enter heaven by virtue of making a faith statement. This is a dangerous fallacy that is sadly common among Protestantism (sorry!) but which dangerously takes certain verses out of context."

You called out Protestantism as promoting a "dangerous fallacy." My comment was only pointing out that I would refer to Ephesians 2:8-9 (and 10) in a non-Protestant Bible (a Bible used by non-Protestant faith communities), such as the Eastern / Greek Orthodox Bible (EOB), the New American Bible, The New American Bible Revised Edition (The St. Joseph Bible), The Douay-Rheims Bible, The New World Translation, etc. I made this statement in oder to clarify that as far as I know, Protestants will accept most any respected version/translation of Ephesians 2:8-9 to show that salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone.

Also, I don't believe that Protestants would say anyoone would enter heaven by virtue of making a faith statement. I believe they would say you enter heaven by virtue of belief in Christ as explained in verses such as John 3:16 and John 11:25, where you will notice there is no mention whatsoever of works. Just hard for me to believe Jesus would not say what he meant and hold back on a key ingredient when it comes to eternal destiny.

John 3:16 (NIV) - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 11:25-26 (NIV) - "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?'"

Hope this helps!

Terry
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This is certainly a worthy discussion, but one that we must take very seriously, for both the gospel and the eternal destiny of those we teach are at stake. These are huge stakes for sure. If I may, I'd like to contribute to this discussion.

Between Paul and John's theology, we have plenty of texts that provide a robust theology concerning the means of salvation. But if I may, in order to allow for a measure of brevity, I'd like to focus my discussion for now to John's gospel primarily, since he states his purpose in writing in John 20, that is, to bring people to faith in Christ so that they might have eternal life.

John introduces his theme of "believing" in 1:12. Here he tells us that we receive Jesus and then he tells us how we receive Jesus, "even to those who believe in his name." Throughout the rest of the book, John uses the verbal form of believing consistently (never uses the noun form)demonstrating that our faith is an active response to both Jesus' person and work on the cross. Even in 6:28-29 when the people ask Jesus what they must do to work the works of God, Jesus responded with "this is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." But let's be clear that this faith is not a superficial or a general faith in God or in Christ, but a focused faith in the finished atonement of Christ in my behalf (we can discuss this further in another post if necessary). Even in John, the apostle highlights the problems with superficial faith in chapter 6 with those who followed Jesus simply because of the miracles he performed, namely the feeding of the 5000. When Jesus invited his listeners to "eat his flesh and drink his blood," that is to take him into their life (remember the "receiving" in 1:12 even to those that believe), many turn away because their faith was a superficial faith based upon physical concerns rather than spiritual. So John provides us with both a thorough treatment on genuine faith in Christ and what superficial faith looks like.

Just to provide balance, as some of you have already noted, James does talk about faith that works. But is it possible that James is merely describing for us what kind of faith actually saves (notice his contrast with the demons that also believe, but lack a saving faith), whereas Paul and John focus on what applies salvation to us? I think that is his focus since he contrasts the real with the false throughout his letter. So his theology is consistent with the others. Another example is how Paul treats this subject in Titus. He demonstrates that our faith in Christ results in a changed life (teaching us to renounce ungodliness, 2:10-12).

Bruce
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I appreciate the dialogue here very much. It is a good thing to review and reinforce what we believe and to share with brothers and sisters about important questions. I would simply add this... In the midst of all of our thoughts and uncertainties, do we love God? Are we giving Him our heart and soul, as best we can, to Him? Do we truly want to be with Him daily and throughout eternity? It is so easy to lose the eternal perspective on things. That's ultimately what He wants, our unconditional and freely given love back to Him in acknowledgement of who He is, what He has done for us and creating us in the first place. Some of my ramblings, sorry if I am off topic.

Glen
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On Mar 3, 2014, Terry Holley wrote:
Hi Vlad,

In an earlier post you wrote, "To be frank, I found the comment that Terry made 'even in a non-Protestant' bible offensive."

I'm not sure why it offended you, as I was simply responding to your statement in another of your posts where you wrote, "Jesus and the Apostles gave us plenty of warnings that we cannot be complacent and think that we will enter heaven by virtue of making a faith statement. This is a dangerous fallacy that is sadly common among Protestantism (sorry!) but which dangerously takes certain verses out of context."

You called out Protestantism as promoting a "dangerous fallacy." My comment was only pointing out that I would refer to Ephesians 2:8-9 (and 10) in a non-Protestant Bible (a Bible used by non-Protestant faith communities), such as the Eastern / Greek Orthodox Bible (EOB), the New American Bible, The New American Bible Revised Edition (The St. Joseph Bible), The Douay-Rheims Bible, The New World Translation, etc. I made this statement in oder to clarify that as far as I know, Protestants will accept most any respected version/translation of Ephesians 2:8-9 to show that salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone.

Also, I don't believe that Protestants would say anyoone would enter heaven by virtue of making a faith statement. I believe they would say you enter heaven by virtue of belief in Christ as explained in verses such as John 3:16 and John 11:25, where you will notice there is no mention whatsoever of works. Just hard for me to believe Jesus would not say what he meant and hold back on a key ingredient when it comes to eternal destiny.

John 3:16 (NIV) - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 11:25-26 (NIV) - "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?'"

Hope this helps!

Terry


Hi Terry,

Your response is both gracious and informative. As for the Bible we Orthodox Catholics study, it was only recently published and what a happy day!! It is called The Orthodox Study Bible and there is excellent commentary provided much the same as Protestants would find in Strong's Concordance. One of the tricky things about reading the collection of books known collectively as The Bible is the accuracy of translations from Hebrew and ancient Greek. Just a quick example, in Genesis we read that man is given "dominion" over the earth. Unfortunately, dominion in the modern sense means something quite different than what it meant in Hebrew. The word actually meant stewardship, not domination or any sense of "rule" or a subduing of God's creation.

As for the other point, there are churches under the Protestant rubric that do believe in "once saved, always saved." Yet Scripture does not support that notion when all of Scripture is taken in its entirety. Now, I am in no way trying to proselytize, but, for history's sake, you might want to check out a series of podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio called Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy which discusses the inclusion of doctrines that are clearly not supported by Scripture. Mormonism for instance contends that Chris was created and yet we know from the Gospel of St. John that Christ was not created for Christ is the Word that became flesh as St. John writes. The Jehovah's Witnesses took this a dangerous step further in their Watchtower Bible which makes changes all through Scripture and one of the most damaging and blasphemous is the inclusion of the article "a" in the Gospel of St. John, thus making the verse into "and the Word was a God."

Lastly, the priest who conducted these podcasts was a former Southern Baptist minister so his perspective is rather unique and perhaps more appealing to someone of the Protestant tradition rather than someone like myself who grew up a Roman Catholic and then converted to the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church. On the surface, we and the Roman Catholics share similarities but, doctrinally, our understanding of grace, the understanding for us that the Holy Spirit does NOT proceed from the Father and the Son, but from the Father only - which is a significant difference for some and to others a tempest in the teapot, and other aspects such as our rejection of the juridical power of the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) keeps us separated - a tragedy to be sure, as tragic as the separation between the Catholic [katolikos] (Roman and Orthodox) and Protestant traditions.

Best,
Vlad

PS: The Orthodox Bible contains not only the Old and New Testaments, but also the Deuterocanonical books as does the Roman Catholic bible and ours also includes second Maccabees which the Roman Catholics do not include. Just a bit of trivia for ya.
Danny Kazam
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I believe that once God saves you, and you believe as according to scripture, then you are always saved. I don't believe God saves you and then takes it away. If I believed that, I would have to except that there is more to do to keep my salvation, and I don't believe there is any scripture to support that theory.

However, I do believe that some think they are saved for many wrong reasons. They think all they have to do is say the sinners prayer, or go to church, or do good deeds, etc. They believe for all the wrong reasons. Jesus will say, "Away from me for I never knew you."

Some call themselves Christians but have no relationship with Christ. I believe they were never saved. Those God saves, He never leaves, nor forsakens them.
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Vlad_77
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Quote:
On Mar 10, 2014, Danny Kazam wrote:
I believe that once God saves you, and you believe as according to scripture, then you are always saved. I don't believe God saves you and then takes it away. If I believed that, I would have to except that there is more to do to keep my salvation, and I don't believe there is any scripture to support that theory.

However, I do believe that some think they are saved for many wrong reasons. They think all they have to do is say the sinners prayer, or go to church, or do good deeds, etc. They believe for all the wrong reasons. Jesus will say, "Away from me for I never knew you."

Some call themselves Christians but have no relationship with Christ. I believe they were never saved. Those God saves, He never leaves, nor forsakens them.


Danny,

I never said that God takes away salvation. What I am trying to say is that SOME evangelical and fundamentalist denominations as well as SOME non-denominationals believe in a concept of "once saved, always saved" in which, no matter what you do after you are "saved" you remain saved. This is not a belief that you will find surfacing until the 1980s. It was never believed in Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox Christianity before that. It is, rather, a doctrine that is unsupported by Scripture.

Scripture repeatedly speaks of salvation as a process - a lifelong process to be precise.

Best,
Vlad
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So, to clarify. Are you saying that when Jesus died on the Cross for the penalty of our sins it was not enough to save us from God's judgement? When is our process of salvation concluded? What if I believe that I am a sinner in need of God's forgiveness, turn from my sinful life and make Jesus the Lord of my life. Am I not saved by the grace of God? What more do I need to do in my life before I die that will gaurantee God's promise to me will be fulfilled?

I believe that if I die tomorrow, I will sleep until the day of resurrection of those who died in Christ. What is this process I must go through before I die, because once I am dead-I am dead.

My salvation is very important to be, and I am open to this discussion. What do I need to do to be saved outside of what Jesus told the rich man?
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Terry Holley
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Hey Vlad,

Yes, Scripture does refer to "salvation as a process."

But, the "salvation process" is misunderstood because one of the mistakes that many make is due to what is referred to as "illegitimate totality transfer" (believing that the meaning of a word as used in one particular context is the same meaning of the word when used in another context, regardless of the context). This is seen in how many interpret "salvation" always as "eternal salvation" when it may refer to "physical salvation". At other times the mistake is made by not identifying which aspect of God's salvation is being discussed (past, present, or future).

When I believe in Christ, I am saved from the penalty of sin (justification - a legal declaration that is instantaneous), I am being saved from the power of sin (sanctification - God's work in a Christian's life through the ministry of the Holy Spirit to make them more Christ-like) and I will be saved from the presence of sin (glorification - the future and final work of God upon Christians, where he transforms their mortal physical bodies into resurrected bodies).

Salvation is a process when looked upon in this way, but justification salvation is a point in time when one belives in Jesus as seen in Acts 16:30-31: He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved — you and your household.”

"Eternal security" not surfacing until the 1980's? I surmise that is a typo and you possibly meant the 1890's or some other fairly recent date. For me it surfaces in the dating of the Scripture. Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of "whatever causes you to lose your salvation."

Add to that Romans 8:38-39 - "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is based on God's love for us and the work of Christ. As some have stated, "Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit."


Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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For Terry and Danny:

Rather than cut and paste, this article explains what I am talking about in terms of process and it answers the question of "once saved, always saved." As you read the article please bear in mind two things:

1. I am by NO means trying to convert you.

2. The article cites Scripture - a LOT. And it is important to bear in mind that what is written in the article has been understood as what is necessary and this is passed down untarnished from Christ to His Apostles and so to the present day.

Special note to Terry, while not a typo, regardless if the once saved, always saved (and this means saved while ALIVE) - surfaced in the 1890s or 1980s, it is not a doctrine when taken in total by Holy Scripture that is supported. Rather, the process as you will read requires both the participation of God AND man.

Special note to Danny. As you will read, of course Christ's sacrifice is necessary. It is the Mormons who believe that Christ's sacrifice was not sufficient, not the ancient Church which lives today. In fact we state that Christ trampled down death by death and upon those in the tombs bestowing life. Here is a link for you Danny (and perhaps Terry) that discusses at length the Sacrifice on the Cross: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/christcross.aspx

Here is the link: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_salvation.aspx

It is a long article and I do hope you will rad it and cross reference the Biblical citations that are provided with your own Bibles.

Yours in Christ,
Vlad

PS: Thanks guys for being open to a conversation. Again, this is not an attempt at conversion but rather a perspective of salvation as it was always understood from Christ to Pentecost and His Apostles and their disciples and on down through today and for the ages to come.
robvh
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For the record, I totally want to convert you so we can all be as united and strong as possible. Smile
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Thanks for that Vlad. When I get some quiet time I will give it a good read, and cross reference it. It will give me plenty to study. I love this kind of stuff.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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