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themagiciansapprentice
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The SoF was written to encompass all Christians fifty-four years ago, without going through a lengthy statement that could have been divisive - it wasn't written by lawyers nor Church elders (ie representatives of Pope, Moderators or Archbishops) but by CHRISTIAN MAGICIANS.

It provides an overarching way that we can live together. I've asked in the UK Chapter of the FCM and no-one has an issue with it. Yep, I'm a member. And when I've been at the Conferences in USA (2008 and 2012) and UK (2010, 2011, 2014) no-one raised this as something to look into. Being honest I don't know the denominations of many of the folks I perform alongside. That is pretty irrelevant when I'm spreading the gospel through the creative arts.

Quite simply, if you are going to be taking a denominationally strict viewpoint then the SoF is not for you. There is a separate Catholic group (though many are also in The FCM and not raised any objections.)

We are not lawyers but practicing Christians.
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On May 4, 2014, themagiciansapprentice wrote:
The SoF was written to encompass all Christians fifty-four years ago, without going through a lengthy statement that could have been divisive - it wasn't written by lawyers nor Church elders (ie representatives of Pope, Moderators or Archbishops) but by CHRISTIAN MAGICIANS.

It provides an overarching way that we can live together. I've asked in the UK Chapter of the FCM and no-one has an issue with it. Yep, I'm a member. And when I've been at the Conferences in USA (2008 and 2012) and UK (2010, 2011, 2014) no-one raised this as something to look into. Being honest I don't know the denominations of many of the folks I perform alongside. That is pretty irrelevant when I'm spreading the gospel through the creative arts.

Quite simply, if you are going to be taking a denominationally strict viewpoint then the SoF is not for you. There is a separate Catholic group (though many are also in The FCM and not raised any objections.)

We are not lawyers but practicing Christians.


Does this Catholic Magician's Guild still exist? It was discussed in the Café 3+ years ago:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......um=42&11

Seems as if the blog is pretty much inactive:

http://catholicmagiciansguld.blogspot.com/

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Mike Maturen
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Terry:

It was never really a very active group. There are only a couple of groups that I am aware of. As near as I can tell, it is largely inactive at this point.

I don't know that it was ever really promoted, never had a printed magazine or a convention.

I wish it did.
Mike Maturen
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mralincoln
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On May 3, 2014, SDMoore1 wrote:

Reading the first chapter of John, "In the beginning was the Word [capital "W"], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..." I see this as an affirmation of the concept of a triune God, three in one. I see The Word as God's expression . . .

The Bible, I believe, is the inspired Word of God. Man held the pen while God wrote it. But.. I do not see the Bible as the only expression of God. As I am using the word,
Capital W Word of God, is, quite literally (and according to John 1) something I call The Holy Spirit. The Bible is not itself The Holy Spirit, nor is the Bible God...though it is inspired by God, it is God's word, and it is infallible. But as "Word" is used in the Bible itself, in first chapter of John, the Bible is not the "only Word of God" because in John 1, The Word means Holy Spirit. The way I see things, if God wills something to happen, and it happens, then that very thing willed by God is an infallible manifestation of Gods truth, and as such, is The Word in action.

Hence my question, hence my desire for clarification.

No one has quite addressed the question yet, from the perspective that it was asked. I presume the good men who wrote the SOF for FCM meant to keep out followers of Buddha, or Confucius, or mohammedians. Okay. I get that. But it seems to me they limit the word "Word" to meaning ONLY the Bible, and not what the Bible itself says "The Word" actually is, which is The Holy Spirit. They overlooked the homonym. Pretty big oversight.

. . .


Yes, the Trinity is clear in Scripture, but in John 1, the Word does not refer to the Person of the Holy Spirit, but to Jesus Christ. For. It says, the Word "became flesh and dwelt among us" . . . And that He was rejected "by His own." In addition, the Holy Spirit is not merely "an expression" of God, but one of the three Persons of the Trinity (three Persons, one God).

So, the Word of John 1 is, specifically, Jesus. So, I don't think those who drafted the FCM's SoF overlooked this, at all.

As for the question raised about "other authority" or "God limiting Himself to the written Word" -- that hinges on the completion of the Canon of Scripture, and how God speaks post canonization (completion of the compilation of Holy inspired Writ ). *Some believe God's written instructions are not sufficient alone (therefore the need for additional revelation and/or authority). As I understand it, FCM's SoF takes the position that God's Word is sufficient and, therefore, the sole authority for faith and practice. Thus, the controversy.

*Now, this brief sentence is my attempt to concisely encapsulate very significant doctrinal issues (with quite impactful ramifications).
themagiciansapprentice
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I just found this quote from Barry Mitchell which seems to sum up the true aims of the FCM

"Eddie Davis, long time member of the FCM once told me it’s all about the Big T and little T.

The Big T (Truth) is that we all believe Jesus is the only way.

The little T’s are all the truths that our particular denominations hold dear.

When we stop arguing about the little T’s and focus on the big T God’s work gets done."
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Mike Maturen
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Mralincoln:

If, indeed, Scripture is "sufficient and, therefore, the sole authority for faith and practice", could you please point me to the Scripture that actually TEACHES that idea?
Mike Maturen
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themagiciansapprentice
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Or maybe just accept you've chosen not to fit in ..
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
Mike Maturen
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Apprentice: Not a matter of choosing. There is no viable alternative for me, but to say that I accept the SoF as it is written would be a lie...which is decidedly unChristlike (lying).

I am only trying to further the discussion to help the FCM understand that the SoF contradicts the teaching of more than half of the world's Christians...and is, necessarily, exclusionary.
Mike Maturen
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stempleton
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I'm a member of the FCM, have never been fortunate enough to attend the conferences, but admire many who contribute to the organization. I have no problem with the SoF, but I did note the May 6 devotional from Oswald Chambers' "My Utmost For His Highest," which includes:

"A spiritually minided man will never come to you with the demand-- "Believe this and that;" but with the demand that you square your life with the standards of Jesus." Also, "Jesus said, "Go and make disciples," not "make converts to your opinions." Read the entire passage here:
http://utmost.org/
Signor Blitz
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Please accept this post with all the grace, humility and respect in which it is written.

There are two different perspectives I am broadly addressing - Catholic and Protestant.
Because of the Reformation (early 1500 to mid 1600's) folks like Luther and Calvin started a movement away from the Catholic church - resulting in Catholics and Protestants. Even though we are worshiping the same God, same Jesus and the same Holy Spirit there are important, fundamental differences between Catholics and Protestants.

The one in question in this thread is the idea of Scripture alone (sola scriptura). This is one (of a few) pivotal elements that that defines Catholicism and Protestantism. The issues that separate these two theological perspectives are much like oil and water. Using the argument of "show me where it is in the Bible" is dangerous for both parties as that approach can backfire on many non related issues that revolves around Biblical beliefs and church traditions (again, these are the defining issues that make Catholics, Catholic and Protestants, Protestant).

We all have the freedom of choice. No one is cohoused to join the FCM. If an organization goes against our wishes, then we have the freedom not to support. We see that in many other (non-magic) related organization who support ideas that goes against the personal beliefs of others. If the Statement of Faith for the FCM goes against personal beliefs, then I would encourage the individual not to support the organization.

A study of church history in society shows that there have been (and continue to be) many attempts to find the common elements of these two major groups. The reality is the differences will remain and they are as important today as they were during the Protestant Reformation. Unfortunately there are many believers (both Catholic and Protestant) who are not either aware of or fully understand the articles of their faith and/or denomination. This usually leads to much confusion and misunderstandings of what their faith is all about.

Regarding the Statement of Faith and the issue of the sufficiency and authority of Scripture. It appears that it was written from a Protestant perspective. That being said, you are correct in saying that it contradicts the Catholic perspective and can be considered exclusionary. Same can be said if you (hypothetically speaking) were to resurrect the Catholic Magicians Guild (or help to create a new Catholic Magician/Entertainer Society). The view point of the Catholic organization on the sufficiency and authority of Scripture would be considered exclusive as well (since it will contradict the Protestant perspective).


If a person was going to try to write a Statement of Faith that fully aligns with a Catholic and Protestant perspectives, the results would be a relative Statement of Faith. Which brings up a whole different topic of relativism v/s absolutism in the Christian world.

Fortunately, this denominational argument has been put in perspective by many fine, reasonable Catholics and Protestants in the FCM who focus their energies on the remaining lines of the Statement of Faith. (I will include them below)

"I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and He died on the cross as the only atonement for our sins; that He rose from the dead; that He ascended to the Father’s right hand in Heaven, and will one day come back for those who trust in Him. As a member of this Fellowship, I commit myself to: (1) reaching lost souls and encouraging growth in the body of Christ through the use of such talents as magic, ventriloquism and associated arts; (2) diligently be a more proficient performer with these talents; and (3) carefully uphold the code of ethics of the magic profession (related to exposure of magical effects and ideas).”

Again, I hope that this is read with all the grace, humility and respect in which it was written as at the end of the day we all (Catholic and Protestant) worship an awesome God Smile
SDMoore1
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Quote:
On May 5, 2014, mralincoln wrote:
Quote:
On May 3, 2014, SDMoore1 wrote:

Reading the first chapter of John, "In the beginning was the Word [capital "W"], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..." I see this as an affirmation of the concept of a triune God, three in one. I see The Word as God's expression . . .

The Bible, I believe, is the inspired Word of God. Man held the pen while God wrote it. But.. I do not see the Bible as the only expression of God. As I am using the word,
Capital W Word of God, is, quite literally (and according to John 1) something I call The Holy Spirit. The Bible is not itself The Holy Spirit, nor is the Bible God...though it is inspired by God, it is God's word, and it is infallible. But as "Word" is used in the Bible itself, in first chapter of John, the Bible is not the "only Word of God" because in John 1, The Word means Holy Spirit. The way I see things, if God wills something to happen, and it happens, then that very thing willed by God is an infallible manifestation of Gods truth, and as such, is The Word in action.

Hence my question, hence my desire for clarification.

No one has quite addressed the question yet, from the perspective that it was asked. I presume the good men who wrote the SOF for FCM meant to keep out followers of Buddha, or Confucius, or mohammedians. Okay. I get that. But it seems to me they limit the word "Word" to meaning ONLY the Bible, and not what the Bible itself says "The Word" actually is, which is The Holy Spirit. They overlooked the homonym. Pretty big oversight.

. . .


Yes, the Trinity is clear in Scripture, but in John 1, the Word does not refer to the Person of the Holy Spirit, but to Jesus Christ. For. It says, the Word "became flesh and dwelt among us" . . . And that He was rejected "by His own." In addition, the Holy Spirit is not merely "an expression" of God, but one of the three Persons of the Trinity (three Persons, one God).

So, the Word of John 1 is, specifically, Jesus. So, I don't think those who drafted the FCM's SoF overlooked this, at all.

As for the question raised about "other authority" or "God limiting Himself to the written Word" -- that hinges on the completion of the Canon of Scripture, and how God speaks post canonization (completion of the compilation of Holy inspired Writ ). *Some believe God's written instructions are not sufficient alone (therefore the need for additional revelation and/or authority). As I understand it, FCM's SoF takes the position that God's Word is sufficient and, therefore, the sole authority for faith and practice. Thus, the controversy.

*Now, this brief sentence is my attempt to concisely encapsulate very significant doctrinal issues (with quite impactful ramifications).

The Word BECAME flesh.
Mike Maturen
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Signor Blitz:

On your words, we agree!
Mike Maturen
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BCE
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Quote:
On May 6, 2014, Signor Blitz wrote:


Regarding the Statement of Faith and the issue of the sufficiency and authority of Scripture. It appears that it was written from a Protestant perspective. That being said, you are correct in saying that it contradicts the Catholic perspective and can be considered exclusionary. Same can be said if you (hypothetically speaking) were to resurrect the Catholic Magicians Guild (or help to create a new Catholic Magician/Entertainer Society). The view point of the Catholic organization on the sufficiency and authority of Scripture would be considered exclusive as well (since it will contradict the Protestant perspective).


If a person was going to try to write a Statement of Faith that fully aligns with a Catholic and Protestant perspectives, the results would be a relative Statement of Faith. Which brings up a whole different topic of relativism v/s absolutism in the Christian world.


Evangelicals and Catholics have made great strides in ecumenical dialogue. And then....there's the FCM Statement of Faith, ostensibly the magicians equivalent of "Take Your Daughter To Work Day" insofar as making Catholics feel like second-class citizens.
Angio333
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I believe that the SOF is WAY to broad. For example, it would allow someone who denied the Trinity to join. Someone who embraced heresies such as Modalism or Arianism would be able to affirm the SOF.
- C
Jerry
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... you can't make all the people happy, all the time.
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