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Sardonicus New user The Left Coast, USA 50 Posts 
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They're talking about entertainment -and- theology. The Santa analogy doesn't work; the people in this forum maintain that evil and evil entities do exist, and because of those beliefs must maintain a clear disassociation from them. It can be a difficult mind-set to appreciate if you weren't raised in the culture or haven't been much exposed to it.
The Magic Café has quite a few instances of members being at some point accused of witchcraft, sorcery or the like. You might enjoy checking YouTube for videos from people that believe some magic is really supernatural. Search for "demon magic". I sometimes don't know whether to laugh or cry.
"Books break the shackles of time. A book is proof that humans are capable of working magic." Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts
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Quote:
On May 7, 2016, kah22 wrote: And that's why you don't understand us, Kevin. We *have* met those people - and some of us have ~been~ one of those people. A Christian is one who must live in two different worlds at the same time - the Bible tells us we are IN this world, but not OF this world. As such, we feel the weight of making sure we do not present ourselves as being like those who do belong to this world and see no problem with blurring the lines. We can't control what another person wants to believe. But therein lies *our* responsibility to make sure we have done all we can to make sure it's their choice to believe whatever, and we have not persuaded them to step over a blurred line. Ed |
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kah22 New user 16 Posts
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Quote: I in no way want to challenge your faith. However take Derren Brown as an example he is an acknowledged atheist and he starts all of his shows by clearly saying that he has no special powers that he will be using TRICKERY, NLP, HYPNOSIS, MAGIC and SHOWMANSHIP.
On May 8, 2016, Ed_Millis wrote: Is that not all you need to tell your audience? However, what might be a legitimate objection would be the use of hypnosis for entertainment purposes. Has any of us the right to manipulate other people's minds and I imagine the same would go for NLP? I would like your thoughts on that Kevin |
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themagiciansapprentice Inner circle Essex, UK 1381 Posts
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I think you'll find that Christian magicians teach us to have a disclaimer - look at the work of Dua
ne Laflin
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
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Terry Holley Inner circle 1805 Posts
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Quote:
On May 7, 2016, kah22 wrote: Here is a link to s recently posted video in the "Good News" area of the Café. Just one example of people who believe that magic is "real." And take a look at the responses! If you aren't familiar with the controversy you have probably never worked in the field of gospel magic or any type of magic that intersects with certain groups of Christianity, other religions or people with superstitious beliefs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkZvYglefsU Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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takeachance Inner circle 3777 Posts
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Quote:
On May 17, 2016, Terry Holley wrote: But that is totally delusional and that person needs help. You can't be suggesting that magic entertainment needs to be censored because of unbalanced individuals who put up You Tube garbage like that. In fact this is my first and probably last visit to this section of the Café, frightening to say the least. |
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Signor Blitz Elite user 419 Posts
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Quote:
On May 22, 2016, takeachance wrote: I love those "blitzkrieg" post that jump in as a first timer to a forum room with outrage to claim that they will never visit the room in question again - LOL 
It is as if we are to cower to their righteous indignation without dialogue - It is a Saul Alinsky approach for belittling and not intended for growth. takeachance - you may walk away shaking your head, but this is a real mindset/worldview that those that work in the gospel marketplace must deal with in our efforts. Granted, not all are as extreme - those folks would never consider such or any program - BUT many mainline denominations have congregants that protest or question our humble, artistic efforts. It only take one to make some noise to cause problems and there are time when churches (out of convenience) to avoid any conflict (which only empowers the protesters ignorance) go in other directions that do not include such speakers and entertainers that incorporate illusions (magic tricks). If your market is secular - then there is usually no problems - but in a faith-based market, there is a different level of accountability. I trust you understand as each market has its own specific nuances that differentiate it from another. Take care and God bless. |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts
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You have to see a mentalism performance as a "show." That's all it is...as long as the performer doesn't go out of his way to make it occult. I've been a full time mentalist for seven years...and a comedy magician for 20 years before that...and a Christ follower for 32 years.
Performers perform. They entertain. The hop onto the stage and bring the audience a period of wonder. The issue that separates mentalism from magic the inferred notion that mentalism just MIGHT be real. After all -- no one is going to seriously buy the idea that a performer walks on stage, chops his assistant into three pieces and then reassembles her, right? But on the flipside: many people -- MANY -- take the whole idea of ESP, telepathy and all the other things that go bump in your mind seriously. After all...who hasn't had the eerie sense that they've been to a place before, or known what someone was going to say before they said it or known for CERTAIN that they were being lied to without completely understanding WHY they know it? Mentalism is built -- at least partially -- on the delicious idea that MAYBE it's for real...and if HE can do it, maybe I can too. This is where the whole proposition gets wiggly. IF you've performed mentalism well, you have been approached after the show by members of the audience who want to talk with you about how long you've had the "gift" -- or what psychic impressions you have about (fill in the blank.) And IF that has happened to you, then you also know the much-more-wiggly-and-oily temptation that pops out of their unabashed admiration. That thought: "I could tell these people anything and they would believe me." It's a genuinely horrific moment because looking into the eyes of a True Believer can create an absolute temptation IF YOU FORGET WHO YOUR ULTIMATE BOSS is. It's not difficult to see how easily some people would be led...and how much many of them want to be led. The Scriptures teach at length about these people. So I would be a liar to say that I didn't wrestle with this for a very long time. After all: who is fool enough to risk offending the Father simply for a job? I spoke at length about this with some other believing mentalists -- and there are quite a few of them. In the end I came up with something I say in every show: "What you've seen me do here today is something any one of you could do with the proper training and practice. It's a mixture of method, technique and inspiration. I thank you very much for sharing this time with me. May God bless you all." And every word is completely true...at least it is for my show. It's not a disclaimer that says "Everything you've just seen me do here was a trick." That's absurd. Why do a show if your intent is to destroy everything you've just performed? When I am hired to perform, I am not hired to sermonize or convert my audiences. I am hired to entertain them. Since I am a professional, working primarily in the corporate sector, that's what I do. But what else does the Word say? A paraphrase: If one man views one day as holy then it's holy. If another man views all days as holy, then they are. If one man won't eat certain foods, then to him they are unholy. Another man has no problem eating anything? Go for it. That's what it's for. If you can't reconcile performing mentalism, then don't do it. I must say that I find the gentleness of this thread refreshing. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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Terry Holley Inner circle 1805 Posts
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Here's a photo of me performing mentalism in the Summer of 1971 at Cedar Point Amusement Park in Sandusky, OH, 45 years ago when I was 18 years old. Even though I gave a disclaimer, many people who viewed my over 600 shows felt that I had psychic abilities. Leaders and members of one church group that saw me perform thought that I was demonized. I still give a disclaimer.
Click here to view attached image.
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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1KJ Inner circle Warning: We will run out of new tricks in 4388 Posts
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If the show is positive, uplifting, and I think that if you treat the subject with humor, then you diffuse many of the problems that might arise.
KJ |
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coreyw New user Missouri 11 Posts
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I have struggled with this myself, and have come up with this as a closer:
"I know you might not understand how everything that happened tonight happened, and that's kind of the point, but realize this: When you know how it works, magic is boring, and most of it could be done by any one of you if you applied yourself. If you want to see a REAL miracle, if you really want to be amazed, be in church this Sunday morning and spend some time with God. He's the only one that amazes without having to pull the wool over your eyes." Closing with that has alleviated my concerns. |
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Some_Magical_Idiot New user 64 Posts
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Commenting for future reference. Thanks
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MSaber New user 50 Posts
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I admire the fact that you're not misleading people into thinking you're doing something supernatural. Maybe try explaining it in terms of psychology. I think people will still be impressed.
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Posted: May 7, 2016 09:42 pm 
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