We Remember The Magic Café We Remember
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Polly wants a cracker... » » Who invented the invisible dove harness (IDH) (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

magic mike
View Profile
New user
Michael M.
88 Posts

Profile of magic mike
I am doing some research, but have not been able to determine who invented the IDH. Does anyone know the history behind its development?
I would appreciate any information concerning it. Thank you.
Channing Pollack is my idea of the perfect magician. For those of you that have not seen him perform, I recommend trying to get hold of a video of an old movie called "European Nights" made about 1959.
I was able to buy this video from Stevens Magic
Bill Hegbli
View Profile
Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
20023 Posts

Profile of Bill Hegbli
Invisible harnesses have been around for many years. Not very popular, because the one hand dove releases bags made the productions more magical then the instant appearances. stroking a silk and gathering it, is much more convincing, as it looks like you only have an empty scarf in your hands. Then with your hands well away from your body. The dove just stands up and spreads their wings. Is a real applause moment.

If you do your costly research you will find many different designs for the invisible dove harness. Dove magic is really very new compared to most other magic. Cantu was the 1st to produce doves in the hands, not using a piece of apparatus to produce the dove from an empty pan or box. Channing Pollack was the first to produce doves from scarves, meaning the magician to become famous using dove productions from scarves. He stated around the late 1950's, into the 1960's.

Channing did not use the invisible harnesses. I don't think you would call ideas printed in books really a development in history. Each person had his own ideas.

Shamada was the one magician I know that use invisible harnesses as a full time professional.

Invisible harnesses did not really become popular until Joseph Gabriel invented his Dove split and showed it on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. That is when the interest grew with the younger magician, around the 1980's or early 1990's.

Invisible harnesses should only be used sparingly when the trick calls for it, other wise there is no real magic to this type of production. The mystery of where did the dove come from is lost.

Not a history, but some information I have learned from books on Dove magic by many different magicians.
Graduate of Chavez College of Prestidigitation and Showmanship

"Magic With A Twist Of Comedy"
Alexo
View Profile
Regular user
Long Island, NY
112 Posts

Profile of Alexo
I've heard that Shimada originated the invisible harness as you can see it in his dove on cane. As far as who invented various types it's pretty much anyone's guess as many magicians (including James Dimmare and Jim Rainho) claim to have invented the most popular model, I'm willing to say independent creation but who knows, so some of that information is hard to get straight.
Dick Oslund
View Profile
Inner circle
6810 Posts

Profile of Dick Oslund
Hi Bill!

Minor "correction" regarding Channing Pollock's dove act.

I first saw Pollock work, at the Magicians Alliance of Eastern States Convention (at Lancaster, PA) in late August or early September,1953! I THINK that it was later that fall or winter, that I saw him on the Ed Sullivan TV show. (He missed the profonde when he did the dove to silk.)

I totally agree with your point that using the IDH may be good, as Joseph Gabriel used it, but, the effect is much better, when the birds appear a moment later. (Pollock, et al.)
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
Bill Hegbli
View Profile
Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
20023 Posts

Profile of Bill Hegbli
Quote:
On Nov 17, 2014, Alexo wrote:
I've heard that Shimada originated the invisible harness as you can see it in his dove on cane. As far as who invented various types it's pretty much anyone's guess as many magicians (including James Dimmare and Jim Rainho) claim to have invented the most popular model, I'm willing to say independent creation but who knows, so some of that information is hard to get straight.

Yes, we are in murky water here, but Shimada's invisible dover holder, has a drawing of it in the Chavez Encyclopedia of Dove Magic, I believe. He may have invented the Dove on Cane as he performs it, but not the design of the holder. No credit is given for the drawings in any of the books I have on Dove magic.
Quote:
On Nov 17, 2014, Dick Oslund wrote:
Hi Bill!

Minor "correction" regarding Channing Pollock's dove act.

I first saw Pollock work, at the Magicians Alliance of Eastern States Convention (at Lancaster, PA) in late August or early September,1953! I THINK that it was later that fall or winter, that I saw him on the Ed Sullivan TV show. (He missed the profonde when he did the dove to silk.)

I totally agree with your point that using the IDH may be good, as Joseph Gabriel used it, but, the effect is much better, when the birds appear a moment later. (Pollock, et al.)

Neil Foster who showed me the Channing Pollock appearance said it around 1960 or 1961 on Ed Sullivan. Neil had to show me the video 3 times and I still missed the miss. So I am sure no one in television land seen it. Only picky jealous magicians who wish to tear a professional apart would think this is a disaster. I thought it was funny.

Thanks Dick, I have tried to find out when Neil Foster trained Pollock at the Chavez School, and started his career, but could never get a positive year.
Graduate of Chavez College of Prestidigitation and Showmanship

"Magic With A Twist Of Comedy"
hugmagic
View Profile
Inner circle
7263 Posts

Profile of hugmagic
Johnny Brown had a very early version that others may have been derived from.
Richard
Richard E. Hughes, Hughes Magic Inc., 352 N. Prospect St., Ravenna, OH 44266 (330)296-4023
www.hughesmagic.com
email-hugmagic@raex.com
Write direct as I will be turning off my PM's.
Michael Baker
View Profile
Eternal Order
Near a river in the Midwest
11106 Posts

Profile of Michael Baker
Quote:
On Nov 17, 2014, hugmagic wrote:
Johnny Brown had a very early version that others may have been derived from.
Richard


That's what I was going to say. The info is in Vol. 3 of Adair's Encyclopedia of Dove Magic (1972).

Excerpt from the book...

"John Brown's Snow White Dove Production - By kind permission of Magic Inc. - U.S.A.
Originally marketed by the Elders Company and purchased by Magic Inc., from Tom Palmer...."

It mentions John Moehring having used it at the New York World's Fair. That would have been 1964. The same book describes his Cane to Dove using the IH. Perhaps an email to him might shed light on this.

Two other effects, "Split" and "Instant Silk", both by John Brown are also described.
~michael baker
The Magic Company
Bill Hegbli
View Profile
Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
20023 Posts

Profile of Bill Hegbli
Johnny Brown's method was very dangerous for the bird. I have the Encyclopedias and both of Johnny Browns books autographed. I would go with the Shamada version for the best safety of the bird. In order to use JB's version, the bird has to be pre-trained or his wings could be damaged or worse.

Last I heard John Moehring is still selling his book, "The Texan Trickster", it is a very good book for with very good ideas for the stage magician who wants to do real magic for his audiences.
Graduate of Chavez College of Prestidigitation and Showmanship

"Magic With A Twist Of Comedy"
Michael Baker
View Profile
Eternal Order
Near a river in the Midwest
11106 Posts

Profile of Michael Baker
Johnny Brown's method, if indeed the original, has been vastly improved upon, and in some cases, done horrible things to the design. I have seen some that I'm surprised didn't kill most of the birds that wore them.

When I was working doves, it became apparent to me that each harness had to be tailor fit to the bird. I did just that with my harnesses. I would simply not recommend buying a ready-made invisible harness, expecting to actually use it. But that's just me.
~michael baker
The Magic Company
Alexo
View Profile
Regular user
Long Island, NY
112 Posts

Profile of Alexo
Quote:
On Nov 17, 2014, Bill Hegbli wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 17, 2014, Alexo wrote:
I've heard that Shimada originated the invisible harness as you can see it in his dove on cane. As far as who invented various types it's pretty much anyone's guess as many magicians (including James Dimmare and Jim Rainho) claim to have invented the most popular model, I'm willing to say independent creation but who knows, so some of that information is hard to get straight.


Yes, we are in murky water here, but Shimada's invisible dover holder, has a drawing of it in the Chavez Encyclopedia of Dove Magic, I believe. He may have invented the Dove on Cane as he performs it, but not the design of the holder. No credit is given for the drawings in any of the books I have on Dove magic.


And even murkier when you consider how much got published without the creators' permission. In Dimmare's DVD he dedicates a portion to talk about how another magician contributed some of Shimada's material to Ian Adair's Encyclopedia of dove magic series as his own without his consent. Seems to be a double edge sword. If you publish an idea somebody will rip it off, but if you don't they'll rip it off anyway and you won't be able to claim it was yours.
Bill Hegbli
View Profile
Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
20023 Posts

Profile of Bill Hegbli
I would not so quick to make assumptions. James Dimmare, was one of the few magicians that actually knew many of the performers. When he did his material, none of the Shimada material was in print or on tape. Shimada did not publish his material until the 1980's. Dimmare's act is so professional, I would bet he sought the advice from Shimada, and he did know Channing Pollock. He very well could have received the permission to use these famous magicians ideas and material, because that is the way it was done.

None of this information on Dove magic was general knowledge. I looked for over 5 years and spent over $500 looking for the "real" methods used in Dove Magic. It was all printed material. Videos were not even available until Stevens Magic started offering their videos. So all this is really new. Magic of this nature was only passed from magician to magician, either freely given or paid for by the student.

I did not notice any of Shimada's dove ideas in the Encyclopedias. There are some very good famous magicians methods, but there are photos of the magicians demonstrating the methods.
Graduate of Chavez College of Prestidigitation and Showmanship

"Magic With A Twist Of Comedy"
sperris
View Profile
Special user
http://www.Anti-Conjuror.com
877 Posts

Profile of sperris
I believe it was Shimada but there are people who I know claim it was Chenkai and Shimada stole the idea from him but who really knows - Shimada speaks on how he created it on the Steven's magic tape he made with them and he's definetly known for it.
DANSPERRY.COM
aboycemagic
View Profile
Regular user
New York
154 Posts

Profile of aboycemagic
Channing Pollock graduated from Chavez in 1952 and appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show in 1954, 1959, and 1960. European Nights came out in 1959. By the early 60s he was doing film more than the act and by late 60's he was done doing both. It's hard to say when he started doing the dove act but it was most likely 1953 because he was doing an act with just cards and balls and no birds driving around in a trailer on the west coast. There is credibility to both the Chenkai and the Shimada stories but when it comes to the dove split it was definitely Joseph Gabriel. I've not seen an footage of a dove split before November 3, 1983. Not to mention, he still has the best split.
Alexo
View Profile
Regular user
Long Island, NY
112 Posts

Profile of Alexo
The inventor of the Dove Split is a bit muddled as well. A version of it is published in Volume 3 of Ian Adair's Encyclopedia of dove magic which came out in 1972 (my copy says 1976 2nd edition), in there it is called "John Brown's Split". But then again as I've said before those books weren't the best at proper crediting. For example what's believed to be Shimada's Dove from Gloves is published in volume 2 and attributed to Chen Kai and in Dimmare's DVD he mentions that instance and makes a passing remark of Shimada inventing the original Invisible Harness and the Dove Split being a Shimada creation as well. All this stuff is enough to make your head spin. The truth.... who knows?
Bill Hegbli
View Profile
Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
20023 Posts

Profile of Bill Hegbli
Guys, Credit is not necessarily for the original inventor. It has to with the design and working of the bag or harness.

For example: General Grants dove bag uses a coat hook and eye closure. The bag is standard design with a flange soldered to the hook.

Shimada has a great one hand opening design, which uses snaps attached to a metal plate.

Neil Foster's simply uses a Velcro closure.

All these changes have been a vast improvement and has added to the presentation of a better production. The one handed release was as talked about as the dove split is today.

Fantasio, marketed his dove bag years ago as well, that used what is termed as Ears, but it requires both hands to open the snaps.

Pollack used the needle release for his double dove production, but Shimada used the needle for a dove produced behind a fan of playing cards.

Each has a distinctive difference to the design and opening feature.

I will say Johnny Brown's Dove pocket is the best to use. So much so that Tony Clark made and sold the Johnny Brown Dove Pocket and did not give him any credit.

We will probably never know, because dove production apparatus was totally a secret in the early years. It was only passed from professional magician to professional magician, usually for compensation. This is true about most magic that professional magicians performed and made their livelihood with in the early years.

Magic is a profession, and just a heart surgeon does not tell how he performs his technique for operating on human hearts, neither do magician want to give their technique for all to steal their livelihood.
Graduate of Chavez College of Prestidigitation and Showmanship

"Magic With A Twist Of Comedy"
magicjimr
View Profile
New user
6 Posts

Profile of magicjimr
I was mentioned above as a 'creator. of the invisible dove harness. I never made such a claim. What I did claim was that I came up with the first safe dove harness that did not injure the bird. Invisible dove harnesses, up to that point, as far as my knowledge, were fish line loops around the bird, primarily under the wings, which tore into the bird when yanked from the pocket. I saw this many times! My IDH was constructed with 1/2" wide cloth loops that did not injure the bird. nuff said!
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Polly wants a cracker... » » Who invented the invisible dove harness (IDH) (2 Likes)
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2017 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.13 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL